My Linux Philosophy

Chat about Linux in general

Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:34 pm

[
Your next point I completely disagree with and I can almost write a thesis paper


Then actually write one.

How is it MY responsibility? I dont give a flip what OS they use either!!! I paid my dues brother, I WANTED to learn Linux because I liked what it was. I learned, I joined forums, I read a ton of material, I progressed through trial and error and because Linux is evolving I have to continue to learn new things. THIS IS WHAT LINUX IS ABOUT! Linus never intended it to be a desktop for the masses. It is about freedom and flexibility but freedom comes at a price brother.


First of all, don't call me brother. Secondly, Its your responsibility because you have been given the knowledge, I paid my dues too, and I'm guessing, for a lot longer than you. It doesn't matter what linux INTENDED to be. Those days are gone. That is no longer what linux is about. OSs are now commodity items. And the Linux community needs to realize that Linux is a part of that, and grow up.

Bull! If you want to fix your furnace, your car or your phone yourself then you should be prepared to learn the technical details.


Sorry, you're wrong. If your 80 year old grandmother wants her furnace fixed, do you expect her to learn the technical details? You have been given the keys to the computer kingdom, and it comes with responsibility to those who haven't. When your grandmother needs an operation, tell me you expect her to learn the details first.

Elitist? Bologna! realistic!

Realistic? stuff. Your doing nothing more that abdicating your responsibiity.

Covered my ass? From what? Are you going to fire me? I work for nobody!


What in God's name makes you think I was referring to you, personally? I was referring to the linux community. Do you see yourself as the sole representative of the Linux community? They are the people who told Windows users, the first time they had a problem, to reformat and install linux. Then, when those people did so, they were told to RTFM. Grow the f up.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:59 pm

Fred,
If that's really your picture, you look like the kind of guy I could have a beer with. Or tea. Your choice. Personally, I prefer the tea. Earl grey, perhaps.

Fred wrote:Ok... I agree the first part of your quote is certainly true. The first thing that comes to mind is that these people took time and had the inclination to learn Windows, at least to the extent necessary to use it on some level. Why is it unrealistic for them to be expected to do the same when it comes to using Linux? It isn't necessary to be a CS major to use Linux. The most difficult part is the installation and configuration on their hardware. Once set-up a Linux desktop, I think, is easier to use on a day-to-day basis than a Windows desktop. It is just different.


Yeah, I will agree that eventually, you might expect users to put in the same amount of time on Linux that they did on learning Windows. Eventually. I just disagree with hitting Windows users with RTFM, even when they ask simple questions.

Listening to people complain because it doesn't work the way they think it should, or blaming Linux for their own lack of knowledge doesn't help the new user and just puts me in a bad mood. It serves no useful purpose.


It probably doesn't serve a purpose. But do you expect those kind of users to react any other way? Like I said, I believe its our responsibility to go to them.

The next time I want you to fix my car I will either gratefully accept your tutelage to learn to make the repairs myself, or I will pay you the going rate to wave your magic wand over it and make it all well again. :-)


I doubt if I could fix your car, Fred. I can fix my car. Maybe. But that's because I've googled. Grandma may not know how to google. But when I go to the dealership, they don't tell me to RTFM.

I like you Fred. Not that it matters.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby dlkreations on Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:11 pm

I think you guys are taking this way too overboard. If someone wants to assist a new Linux user, then that is their prerogative. If they don't want to help, then that is their choice as well. No one is holding a gun to their heads saying that they have to RTFM.

It seems to me that you're turning this into a personal matter pad-thai, and you shouldn't take it as such. This is nothing more than a debate, and up until now, a good one. You've unfortunately taken this a little too far and made this a personal crusade to make sure you get your point across. Well, you have and it shouldn't go any further than that. Belittling someone isn't going to make anything better for you. Everyone, including yourself is entitled to an opinion and you should be respectful enough to accept that. Anything more just makes you pompous and no one is going to give you the time of day reading anything else you write.

The point everyone and myself included is trying to make is that they are willing to assist new members, but they have to want to learn it too by reading up on things. And yes, this can be considered OJT. No one is going to be given a silver spoon and expect everything to be done for them. If you want to learn, then you're going to have to be willing to put some effort in yourself.

Everyone has to start somewhere. There is no better way than reading, and doing it hands-on. So let's steer this back into the direction it was intended, and not let personal feelings get in the way.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:21 pm

AK Dave,

I'm sorry. Grow the f up was a bit harsh. You just pissed me off. Three long posts, and y'all expect me to respond to all of them. Guess I'm pissin' some of ya off, too.

And "do a little homework" is all I ask. Don't expect me, or Fred, or anybody else, to do all of your thinking for you. My "philosophy", if you'll call it that, really boils down to the fact that you need to be willing and able to put forth the minimum amount of effort to make yourself helpable.


But I don't require that anyone make themselves helpable. I don't require anything, really. After some discussion, they usually make themselves helpable, and begin to do their own thinking. That's where I think the elitism comes in. The Linux community requires some minimum level of expertise before they will "allow" you to talk to them. They shouldn't.

Perhaps the ideal would be a self-installing self-extracting self-downloading OS that automatically configures itself, requires no input, gets it right every time, and works on every possible random combination of hardware bits. We're not there yet. If thats what you expect, buy a Mac.


Yeah, you know, I think that would be the best of all possible worlds. For both Windows and Linux. And when that happens, nobody''s going to want to google, or read Proceedings of the ACM. They're just going to want to make it work. Its called progress. And they're going to be asking us for help.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:22 pm

It seems to me that you're turning this into a personal matter pad-thai, and you shouldn't take it as such.


You're mistaken. I'm still debating.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby dlkreations on Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:36 pm

pad-thai wrote:You're mistaken. I'm still debating.

First of all, don't call me brother. Secondly, Its your responsibility because you have been given the knowledge, I paid my dues too, and I'm guessing, for a lot longer than you. It doesn't matter what linux INTENDED to be. Those days are gone. That is no longer what linux is about. OSs are now commodity items. And the Linux community needs to realize that Linux is a part of that, and grow up.

Grow the f up.


That tells me otherwise. Debating is one thing. Insulting people is quite another story.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:52 pm

pad-thai wrote:I just disagree with hitting Windows users with RTFM, even when they ask simple questions.


Thats fair. I think that in that context, "RTFM" could be a bit harsh. Perhaps instead, "here is a wiki page you should read".

I doubt if I could fix your car, Fred. I can fix my car. Maybe. But that's because I've googled. Grandma may not know how to google. But when I go to the dealership, they don't tell me to RTFM.


[stereotype]Oh, the guys at the dealership (sales OR service) love it when people come in who blissfully substitute money for clues. The car repair industry thrives on selling people "blinker fluid" and other such uselessness. Fail to do your homework at a new car dealership, or worse a USED car dealership, and you're just throwing away your money. You'd be better off getting a wad of cash and setting it on fire yourself. No, the dealership won't tell you to RTFM.[/stereotype]

[sarcasm]Aren't stereotypes useful?[/sarcasm]
Last edited by AK Dave on Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:59 pm

pad-thai wrote:The Linux community requires some minimum level of expertise before they will "allow" you to talk to them. They shouldn't.


Maybe true as a generalism, but not true when you start applying this as a stereotype to everyone. Its one thing to be ignorant, but willing to learn. Its something else entirely to be ignorant, and unwilling to learn. The first person is helpable. The second person is a help vampire.

Oh, and as for the EE and Mech-E and whatever comments. Yes, it WOULD be better if everyone had a higher level of basic education in engineering and physics. Yes, it WOULD be better if everyone who uses a toaster, for example, could scratch build their own. We'd all have better toasters. We'd be driving some pretty awesome efficient cars if everyone was a mechanical or an electrical engineer and willing to tinker a bit. We wouldn't be dreaming about 100mpg Hummers, we'd be driving them out of scrap parts we cobbled together ourselves.
Last edited by AK Dave on Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby FedoraRefugee on Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:10 pm

pad-thai wrote:
[
Your next point I completely disagree with and I can almost write a thesis paper


Then actually write one.

How is it MY responsibility? I dont give a flip what OS they use either!!! I paid my dues brother, I WANTED to learn Linux because I liked what it was. I learned, I joined forums, I read a ton of material, I progressed through trial and error and because Linux is evolving I have to continue to learn new things. THIS IS WHAT LINUX IS ABOUT! Linus never intended it to be a desktop for the masses. It is about freedom and flexibility but freedom comes at a price brother.


First of all, don't call me brother. Secondly, Its your responsibility because you have been given the knowledge, I paid my dues too, and I'm guessing, for a lot longer than you. It doesn't matter what linux INTENDED to be. Those days are gone. That is no longer what linux is about. OSs are now commodity items. And the Linux community needs to realize that Linux is a part of that, and grow up.

Bull! If you want to fix your furnace, your car or your phone yourself then you should be prepared to learn the technical details.


Sorry, you're wrong. If your 80 year old grandmother wants her furnace fixed, do you expect her to learn the technical details? You have been given the keys to the computer kingdom, and it comes with responsibility to those who haven't. When your grandmother needs an operation, tell me you expect her to learn the details first.

Elitist? Bologna! realistic!

Realistic? stuff. Your doing nothing more that abdicating your responsibiity.

Covered my ass? From what? Are you going to fire me? I work for nobody!


What in God's name makes you think I was referring to you, personally? I was referring to the linux community. Do you see yourself as the sole representative of the Linux community? They are the people who told Windows users, the first time they had a problem, to reformat and install linux. Then, when those people did so, they were told to RTFM. Grow the f up.


I sure dont know why you took such offense at my post...brother...but it is okay, I wont cyberkick your butt. :)

If my grandmother had a problem with her furnace then I would expect her to call someone in to fix it. I would not expect her to go into a furnace forum and try and figure out the answer. I think the part you missed was where I said if you want to do these things yourself. I have been given keys to a computer kingdom? ROTFL, what are you smoking? Thai stick I suppose. The only responsibility I hold is to myself. I wont try to insult you like you have me by trying to make myself appear as the old Linux guru who has been around forever...You can easily check my credentials, I gave my screenname at the place I have been the last five years and 7,000 odd posts. You dont seem to have too firm a grip on what the Linux community even is, but if you feel like saving the world today then go right ahead. I will be watching you work, you have what, 19 posts right now? Lets see you in action. I want to see you acting on YOUR responsibility. I will be watching brother, lets see how many people you help this week.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby exploder on Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:58 am

FedoraRefugee,

You have my compliments for the best, well worded response I have ever read!

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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby Katzedecimal on Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:28 pm

I'm seeing different degrees of RTFM defined in this thread. For me, as far as Linux Mint specifically, RTFM stops at the User Guide PDF. The User Guide is clearly written in simple n00b language (which I very much appreciated, being a n00b :lol: ), covers most of the most immediate questions (including how to take a screenshot), and is, to me, the equivalent of reading the directions on the box. Any questions not covered by the User Guide are fair, IMHO. The man pages are inherited from UNIX and were written for UNIX admins, who understand a) the lingo, b) where to find them; most n00bs don't even know that the man pages exist, let alone how to find them. So, IMHO, telling people to read the man pages is being unreasonable. But as self-appointed unofficial leader of the unofficial Linux Mint ra-ra-n00b squad, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a n00b to have read his/her chosen distro's user guide. However, some distros user guides can be as murky and un-n00b-friendly as the man pages, but in those cases, I feel it reflects more on the writers of those user guides, rather than on the n00b :mrgreen:
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:07 pm

Katzedecimal wrote:For me, as far as Linux Mint specifically, RTFM stops at the User Guide PDF.


This is fair. I think your observations on the noob-friendliness (and sometimes un-friendliness) of user guides is spot on.

I think that Mint's user guide does a good job of covering the basics of using a Linux Mint system. There are a lot of aspects glossed over and a lot of highly technical details that are skipped. Those are all googleable. But the user guide itself should, and I think does, set someone up very well. I think it speaks well of a user if she or he reads it, and speaks poorly of someone who can't be bothered to read it. It does not, however, make someone immune to simple mistakes and sometimes simple mistakes in a linux install can be fatal to your data.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby FedoraRefugee on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:11 pm

You know what I hate? I hate being pushed into a position that I do not hold like Pad Thai has tried to do. I have not seen too many RTFM answers in this forum, or even in the Fedora forum where we do tend to be a bit more technical and geared to more intermediate users. I hear a lot of people complaining about elitist attitudes and such but really hardly ever see this attitude displayed. When I do see this attitude it is usually in response to an attitude like "the Linux world owes me because I tried your OS." It is almost laughable because the ones who do try to push people into using Linux are the same ones that talk about this attitude and how the Linux community has this huge responsibility. I have never pushed anyone into using Linux in fact I make it crystal clear what they are getting into by using Linux. If they are eager to learn then I am eager to show them the way. If not then why should I push them?

Mint is a very friendly distro that is winning many people to Linux. This is great! This is why we are here. I have seen Dave and Fred and Exploder and many others helping many folks in here. I do not see them yelling "RTFM!" I think trying to portray things here any differently is totally unfounded. This is a very friendly forum and I have seen very few people told off, and NEVER in response to a question. At worst I have seen people linked to the pertinent information. So if Dave wants to make a thread, in the open discussion forum, about how it is irritating when people do not make even the slightest attempt to solve their own problems before crying for help then I agree. And like it or not, as easy as Linux, and particularly Mint, have become, these people will not stick with Linux any length of time. Maybe on these preinstalled computers, where all the problems are worked out already and the user can learn the new system without having to jump through hoops, then maybe this will change and Linux will become an OS for all people. And I sure dont mind taking my valuable free time and answering sincere questions to help others who want to become involved in the OS that I love. But I am not responsible to do this and I refuse to spoon feed someone who refuses to at least try to figure things out. If you try then I will, and have, spend days if necessary to help you get it off the ground.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby dlkreations on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:38 pm

That was a very good post FedoraRefugee, and I can say in all honesty that your views are very much like many who frequent these forums. It's the select few who do feel like they are owed something because they are using Linux. Look at the Linux is not Windows thread for example. It's those people who honestly have no business using Linux. because all they want to do is complain about how this and that do not work they way they are use to. I mean, seriously get a grip people. Of course Linux is not Windows! Linux is a breath of fresh air in a stagnant windowed world.

I am by far no where near as intelligent as most of the members here who have been using Linux for years, and to be straight-forward, I had that mentality at one time or another because I guess you can say I have earned my bread on Windows. I have been using Windows since version 3.0, I run a Windows network at my employment. I even attained my MCSE. But Linux is a new world full of life and advancement. It is the future for those who are willing to learn. It really isn't that difficult.

No matter what though, I am a willing participant in helping others with what limited information I have attained thus far. But in the same line, I expect others to read and try searching on their own as countless other have.

Again good post, FedoraRefugee. Good thread too!

By the way... mind if I just refer to you as FR? Your name is quite long lol.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby FedoraRefugee on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:14 pm

Thank you and sure, FR is fine, I will know who you mean.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby MALsPa on Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:02 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:Maybe on these preinstalled computers, where all the problems are worked out already and the user can learn the new system without having to jump through hoops, then maybe this will change and Linux will become an OS for all people.


Too bad there isn't a lot more of that. I started out with "Linux preinstalled." I think I would have learned more about Linux faster if I hadn't, but it gave me a good feeling for what Linux was all about, and it was a good first impression. Later I abandoned the distro that the computer came with, but kept the computer and tried other distros. I wish it was more common to see Linux computers on store shelves, especially for folks new to Linux who want to get up and running quickly -- wouldn't it be great to be able to walk into a store and buy a computer that already has Linux Mint??
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:56 am

dlkreations wrote:
pad-thai wrote:You're mistaken. I'm still debating.

First of all, don't call me brother. Secondly, Its your responsibility because you have been given the knowledge, I paid my dues too, and I'm guessing, for a lot longer than you. It doesn't matter what linux INTENDED to be. Those days are gone. That is no longer what linux is about. OSs are now commodity items. And the Linux community needs to realize that Linux is a part of that, and grow up.

Grow the f up.


That tells me otherwise. Debating is one thing. Insulting people is quite another story.


You don't seem to understand a good argument. If you think I'm sitting here drooling over my keyboard, think again. This is fun for me. What's a good argument unless you can throw a few insults around.

Let me give you some background: I've already said Grow the ***** up was too harsh, and apologized. I was going to edit it out, but before I could you had responded to it. So it was only honest to leave it in.

Now there's another problem I have with the Linux community: they're too damn sensitive. Perhaps for another thread.

PS: keep in mind that Dave ranted at me, so I ranted back.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:02 am

Maybe true as a generalism, but not true when you start applying this as a stereotype to everyone. Its one thing to be ignorant, but willing to learn. Its something else entirely to be ignorant, and unwilling to learn. The first person is helpable. The second person is a help vampire.


See, this is the part I disagree with. Not everyone is going to be willing, or even able, to learn. If you're talking about an Atlas-Agena, you gotta be willing to learn. But when a piece of tech moves into the mainstream, things get different. The tech community has to be able to deal with the unwilling and unable, too.

Oh, and as for the EE and Mech-E and whatever comments. Yes, it WOULD be better if everyone had a higher level of basic education in engineering and physics. Yes, it WOULD be better if everyone who uses a toaster, for example, could scratch build their own. We'd all have better toasters. We'd be driving some pretty awesome efficient cars if everyone was a mechanical or an electrical engineer and willing to tinker a bit. We wouldn't be dreaming about 100mpg Hummers, we'd be driving them out of scrap parts we cobbled together ourselves.


It would be better, but its not always going to happen.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby Fred on Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:22 am

pad-thai,

I am sure opinions of what is acceptable/agreeable will vary from person to person. In this case there is another consideration however. Recently, especially, we have gained a number of school children from the Helios project monitoring and using this forum. Inappropriate, profane language should be avoided. I for one don't care to contribute to their corruption, but would prefer it said that this forum was a positive influence. I have grandchildren too. :-)

I know you may feel outnumbered in this discussion but I can assure you that nothing I have said was intended to insult or disparage you. I will stick my neck out a bit and say that none of the other responses were intended for that purpose either.

A good healthy exchange of ideas and view points is good. We may not change each other's minds but we will come to understand each other and their perspectives better.

This, on the whole, is a good thing. :-)

Fred

EDIT: By-the-way, the picture is of me. One of my daughters caught me at my favorite pastime. Napping on the couch. Handsome devil, aren't I! :-)
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:32 am

I sure dont know why you took such offense at my post...brother...but it is okay, I wont cyberkick your butt. :)


Dave, relax. We're having a good old fashioned argument here. My initial impression of you is that you liked a good argument. I hold no animosity toward you, whatsoever. I don't even know you.

I have been given keys to a computer kingdom? ROTFL, what are you smoking? Thai stick I suppose. The only responsibility I hold is to myself. I wont try to insult you like you have me by trying to make myself appear as the old Linux guru who has been around forever...


You and I have different philosophies. I grew up in a world where having knowledge in something meant having a responsibillity to those who didn't. You, obviously, do not feel the same thing. I am not trying to appear as the old Linux guru. I originally posted to two threads. Everyone in those threads was in agreement. So it seemed like the usual Linux totalitarianism. I have a contrary opinion, so I posted. I didn't expect it would cause every Linux weenie west of Hong Kong to come out of the woodwork. But I should have. If anyone's getting sensitive here, it doesn't seem to be me. And I've never smoked anything but a Camel.

You can easily check my credentials, I gave my screenname at the place I have been the last five years and 7,000 odd posts. You dont seem to have too firm a grip on what the Linux community even is, but if you feel like saving the world today then go right ahead. I will be watching you work, you have what, 19 posts right now? Lets see you in action. I want to see you acting on YOUR responsibility. I will be watching brother, lets see how many people you help this week.


I don't need to check you credentials. You seem like a smart guy to me. Who knows? I teach ESL and help new users with Windows and Linux problems. When I'm not developing software. None of this occurs online.

Why should I bother taking up your challenge? Who gives a rat's ass. You're ranting again, Dave. I'd have at you, but I've already gotten a yellow card from some Linux weenie. I've never questioned your ability. I question your philosophy.

PS: Are you in AK? Beautiful place. I was on contract there for a while. Wished I could have stayed. Enjoy your time there, however long it lasts.
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