My Linux Philosophy

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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby MALsPa on Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:36 am

Fred wrote:we have gained a number of school children from the Helios project monitoring and using this forum. Inappropriate, profane language should be avoided


Yes. Nothing wrong with a good argument or debate, whatever you want to call it, but please, pad-thai, no need for the foul language and insults.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:43 am

Katzedecimal wrote:I'm seeing different degrees of RTFM defined in this thread. For me, as far as Linux Mint specifically, RTFM stops at the User Guide PDF. The User Guide is clearly written in simple n00b language (which I very much appreciated, being a n00b :lol: ), covers most of the most immediate questions (including how to take a screenshot), and is, to me, the equivalent of reading the directions on the box.


Fine. But one of the problems I've seen from teaching ESL is that some people don't even know what to ask, or how to ask it. Its not that they are lazy, its that they don't even know where to begin, or how to express it. I think computer knowledge is the same sometimes. Tell them to read a noob-oriented users guide, they don't know what it means. Remember, the vast majority of users are decidedly non-tech.

There will always be that segment who know nothing technical, and don't want to. Yet they are being forced into using computers. These things are now for everyone, folks, including those you don't want to have to deal with. Sorry.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:57 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:You know what I hate? I hate being pushed into a position that I do not hold like Pad Thai has tried to do.


I'm not pushing you into anything. I expressed my opinion. You are welcome to hold your own. Do you know what an opinion is?

I hear a lot of people complaining about elitist attitudes and such but really hardly ever see this attitude displayed.

I have, in the UNIX, then Linux, then BSD,, software developent community, since about the late 1980s.

When I do see this attitude it is usually in response to an attitude like "the Linux world owes me because I tried your OS." It is almost laughable because the ones who do try to push people into using Linux are the same ones that talk about this attitude and how the Linux community has this huge responsibility. I have never pushed anyone into using Linux in fact I make it crystal clear what they are getting into by using Linux. If they are eager to learn then I am eager to show them the way. If not then why should I push them?


You're guilty of generalizing. What you do is not necessarily the same as the majority. As an SE, I've seen plenty of elitism. Deny it if you wish. "the Linux world owes me because I tried your OS." is a gross generalization.

Mint is a very friendly distro that is winning many people to Linux. This is great! This is why we are here. I have seen Dave and Fred and Exploder and many others helping many folks in here. I do not see them yelling "RTFM!" I think trying to portray things here any differently is totally unfounded. This is a very friendly forum and I have seen very few people told off, and NEVER in response to a question. At worst I have seen people linked to the pertinent information. So if Dave wants to make a thread, in the open discussion forum, about how it is irritating when people do not make even the slightest attempt to solve their own problems before crying for help then I agree.


You're not thinking. I do not question what anyone on this forum does, because I don't know them. This seems to be a very friendly form, in fact. Unless you express the wrong opinion. I think Mint is great, that's why I'm using it.

I disagree with Dave's philosophy. And if I want to say so in this thread, do you disagree with my right to do so?
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:08 am

Fred,

I didn't realize there were children here. I'll keep it to a muffled roar.

The only thing about being outnumbered here is that there are too many posts to answer. But its fun. I'm well aware I am in the minority. Speculum Mundi.

After the enlightenment, tea.

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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby Katzedecimal on Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:26 am

pad-thai wrote: Remember, the vast majority of users are decidedly non-tech.


Like me. Yeah, you know that "my wife who just wants to surf and read her email and do a little office work" that people like you keep holding up as an example? -- yeah, that's me *waves* I have every right to say "if I can do it, what's your excuse?" because hi there! - that's me! Oh, and the second-language card? - Hiya.

pad-thai wrote:There will always be that segment who know nothing technical, and don't want to. Yet they are being forced into using computers. These things are now for everyone, folks, including those you don't want to have to deal with. Sorry.


And those people should save their pennies and buy an Apple. They should not be using Linux, no not even Linux Mint. That is the demographic that Apple targets, the people who just want to plug it in and start surfing. It's dedicated to its hardware so there will never be driver issues, its protected by a no-tamper warranty so if a card fries, they have to take it to the shop, they never have to touch it themselves or worry about it in any way, all they have to do is use it. That's who Macs are for and bless them in their business targetting that demographic. They should NOT be using Linux, any distro. They understand that Macs are a completely different operating system; they come here thinking that Linux is just a free version of Windows, then they throw a fit when they realise that no, it's a free version of UNIX. And UNIX has never functioned like Windows - on the contrary, Windows is trying to function more like UNIX. Yes, computers are everywhere now, just like cars, and just like cars, if you're going to own one, you have to learn to drive it. If you don't want learn to drive it, then you have to pay to have someone else drive it for you.
"Dance without sleeping, I'll dance without fear
Dance without senses, no message I hear
Dance without feeling, I'll dance 'til I'm numb
Dance 'til I think I can overcome" -- Melissa Etheridge
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby MALsPa on Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:50 am

Katzedecimal wrote:thinking that Linux is just a free version of Windows [...] no, it's a free version of UNIX


That's probably the key thing to keep in mind!
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:01 pm

pad-thai wrote:You don't seem to understand a good argument. If you think I'm sitting here drooling over my keyboard, think again. This is fun for me. What's a good argument unless you can throw a few insults around.


Thats the problem, pad-thai.

You take a healthy adult discussion and turn it into your pet playground fistfight, just for fun. Insults, rants, foul language, and such can all stay on the playground and don't have any place here. And its all for "fun". Which is why I have a hard time taking you seriously.

Your experience and skill do not come across clearly.

Now there's another problem I have with the Linux community: they're too damn sensitive. Perhaps for another thread.


Save it for another forum entirely. :)

PS: keep in mind that Dave ranted at me, so I ranted back.


Err, no. I don't think so. And if I did type something interpretable as a spleen-venting, I don't recall (and cannot find in this thread) anything of the sort written by me and directed personally at you. So... nope.

You're welcome to disagree. Thats why I put this thread here. Please keep it civil and not personal.
Last edited by AK Dave on Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:06 pm

pad-thai wrote:
I sure dont know why you took such offense at my post...brother...but it is okay, I wont cyberkick your butt. :)


Dave, relax. We're having a good old fashioned argument here. My initial impression of you is that you liked a good argument. I hold no animosity toward you, whatsoever. I don't even know you.


This is all FedoraRefugee that you're quoting in this message, pad-thai.
Last edited by AK Dave on Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby FedoraRefugee on Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:41 pm

I was gonna mention that too, but what is the point? I have come to the same conclusions that you have and decided to just drop it. He is welcome to his opinion.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby Ozz on Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:47 am

I have to say that I agree on several points, that some of the newby questions can be answered by some googling on the forum, and reading the How-to's on the forums of Mint and Ubuntu.

I am amazed at the patience that some of the people on this forum have exhibited, such as the ones taking part in this discussion Freds AK DAve etc or Husse (who answers most of the newby posts, often reiterating something that he has already said 3 days ago to a similar question)

Am I allowed to add names of people not on this thread? (If not I will edit my note)

I believe myself that Linux can be for the masses. Anyone curious enough to try the Linux OS's should then be curious enough to look on forums should anything be difficult to understand.

I understand that the RTFM (read the full manual in polite terms) is what one feels when someone says for the 100th time, my flash plugin is not working in firefox (mea culpa, although I did not create a post on that issue, I answered another thread) but then as an ex-teacher, I remember how some people need guidance. Not everyone is confident in their IT skills. Linux is a community and in a community there are always the wise ones and ... the less wise ones.

The only drawback to people posting their problems without checking that the question has not been asked already is that you end up with the forum full of disparate posts, a bit like a synaptic package with orphan debs :D . It makes it difficult for others to find the relevant thread. This is why the work of the administrators is so difficult.

I thank all of you for your hard work and your different philosophies.

I work as a head hunter, and Clem (and team) I admire you for investing some much of your time into this project, when all I see when I talk to clients is profit profit profit

I grade Linux as one of the most advanced showcases of what humanity can do when they decide to pool together.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby FedoraRefugee on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:04 am

Ozz wrote:The only drawback to people posting their problems without checking that the question has not been asked already is that you end up with the forum full of disparate posts, a bit like a synaptic package with orphan debs :D . It makes it difficult for others to find the relevant thread. This is why the work of the administrators is so difficult.


And that is the point.

To an extent this is going to happen no matter what. The Fedora forum is a great model for this because of its size and pace. I would imagine you would see the same over at Ubuntu. It is really a factor of many things. People just get so intent on what is happening to them that they cannot rationally reason. They are new to this and feel it is the "product's" fault rather than their not understanding the Linux way. They usually get hit on install with multiple problems, many of which are causing other problems, and they do not know where to start. They are impatient to get back to that work report or that term paper that is due tomorrow. It is just all par for the course. What I used to love is when a new version of Fedora was released it wouldnt take half a day for us to see all the bugs and problems and figure out how to fix things. So we would post in a clearly titled thread about the problem. Then we would answer thread after thread with the same question. One day every single post in the top ten list on the home page were covering the same issue! What is really funny is that the poster always prefaces his post with "I have been searching and..." Not very hard apparently as there have been 50 posts today on just this issue!

Sometimes it is enough to drive a person to drink. I guess that is why they are all alcoholics over there...So do we get upset now and then? Sure. But we usually take it out on the ranters, those folks who believe that Linux is not ready, Windows is better, and that felt this pressing need to tell the world this which is really only showcasing their own stupidity. For real, you tried Linux, you dont like it, why the urge to rant in every Linux forum you come across? We dont care!!! We use Linux just fine and do not share your problems or opinions. Yeah, these folks usually get told off fairly quickly, and rightly so depending on how obnoxious they were. But the people simply asking the same question for the 100th time? I have seen through the years that most forum staffers just suck it up and either quickly answer it once again or post a link to the "main" answer thread. The Fedora forum staff especially have seen their mistakes in the past in this regard and are really trying hard to be patient and even collect up all these threads and combine them. They really put a lot of hard work into trying to keep things organized and easy to find for the new folks.

I think in the end that some folks just forget that the Linux community is mostly made up of volunteers who are donating their own time and even resources for no gain. We are all humans, we all have a bad side, we all get tired and angry, and we are all entitled to a snarky answer now and then, especially when the question was obvious. But for the most part we do try to help because we do want to see people get involved with FOSS like we are.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby ezsurfer on Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:58 pm

I wanted to jump in here, Wow, what a thread.

Various good and (eventually) bad, then back to great, input. I at one point wanted so to jump to the aid of pad-thai, because the initial post, and reasoning ( REASONING ) was pointed and correct. I loved how folks took to that and responded to that.

Then, the personal afronts flew in. And rightfully, were identified as easily detracting from the previously excellent sharing of ideology.

So a bit of input for both sides. I'm a relative noob. I'm not stupid, nor untrained, and really am insulted if I get the RTFM notation from anyone. I do agree with pad-thai here, I've seen it used often in many reads of forums. When I ask a question, I've searched, and as often as anything else, came up with opposing views just as opposing as the roots of this discussion.

But the same person that says RTFM is not the way a community should act, needs to understand to keep the discussion on point. Telling folks later they have thin skin is exactly analagous to RTFM. It wasn't an argument, it was a sharing of philosophical ideologies. It's not for fun, it was meant to detract and try to win a percieved argument. You won me in the beginning, and lost my support when you personalized your words.


All in all, it's great to see such minds here adding to the wealth of the community. I am head over heels infatuated with Mint!


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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:38 pm

The discussion is valuable. This thread is still valuable. I hope pad-thai hasn't been offended and chased off. Sometimes discussions do get heated, especially when geeks are passionate about something. Drop this bombshell at your next LUG meeting if you want to see the fur fly: "Which Star Trek was better?" Yeah, you'll see the fur fly and it won't be pretty. Being passionate about technology issues is something that makes geeks, well, it makes us geeks. We'll welcome you regardless of your opinion of who the best Captain is. I'm partial to Captain Data.

Philosophy and discussion is healthy, but I do think we can have that and grow from it without being excessively dramatic in the process.

If you want drama, go to a Theater Club and tell them what you really think about Rent. Then run.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:47 am

Hi, Fred. Actually, you are a handsome guy. Not that I mean anything by that. Just sayin. Granddaughters are cuties, but they can be little devils.

You know, I'm trying, but I really have other things to do besides answer all your posts. Plus, the draft is today, and its like opening Christmas presents. Frankly, I hope they can get Mack. The OL needs help. But they seem to think the OL is fine as it is.

As I said before, I'd really like to answer all of you, and try and get your heads straight (he he.) You won't scare me away. Its just that answering all of you is getting to be more work than I want to handle.

That's what happens in the Linux community - you just can't post a contrary opinion without getting flamed for it. Everyone drinks the Kool Aid.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:17 am

Like me. Yeah, you know that "my wife who just wants to surf and read her email and do a little office work" that people like you keep holding up as an example? -- yeah, that's me *waves* I have every right to say "if I can do it, what's your excuse?" because hi there! - that's me! Oh, and the second-language card? - Hiya.

WHAT???

Lets, see. I think you're saying you have the right to say that if you can, so can everyone else. Of course you have the right to say it. And I have the right to disagree.

And those people should save their pennies and buy an Apple. They should not be using Linux, no not even Linux Mint.

I disagree. Mint is about a half inch from being a windows clone now. Why can't Linux be both a desktop and server OS? An OS is an OS. It allocates resources, nothing more. User-friendly is in the GUI apps, not the kernel. So there's no reason why some distros of an inherently better OS, one designed for stability, security, to good principles of CS, and not for marketing reasons, can't serve the general public. Its your bank accounts, folks.

they come here thinking that Linux is just a free version of Windows, then they throw a fit when they realise that no, it's a free version of UNIX.

That's because they've been told, over and over, by members of the Linux community, that Linux IS a free version of Windows. So they come here, and then you guys rabbit punch them.

And UNIX has never functioned like Windows - on the contrary, Windows is trying to function more like UNIX.

Again, what you're talking about - functionality - is in the GUI apps. Not the kernel or the utilities.

if you're going to own one, you have to learn to drive it.


NO. We're not talking about DRIVING it. We're talking about MAINTAINING it. Progress is about learning to drive it, but relying on someone else to maintain it. Drive the toaster, drive the car, drive the OS. But when you need help to fix it, you need someone who doesn't expect you to be a mechanic before he will answer you.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:36 am

You take a healthy adult discussion and turn it into your pet playground fistfight, just for fun. Insults, rants, foul language, and such can all stay on the playground and don't have any place here. And its all for "fun". Which is why I have a hard time taking you seriously.

Wow. Someone's taking this too seriously. I guarantee you, its not me. I may be flippant at times, and hemi-obscene, but I do hold the positions i am arguing. I could not argue a position i did not hold.

As for taking me seriously,

a) you don't have to, and
ii) I don't take you seriously, either.

Your experience and skill do not come across clearly.

Don't care. They don't have to. I have an opinion.

Now there's another problem I have with the Linux community: they're too damn sensitive. Perhaps for another thread.


Save it for another forum entirely. :)

I take it you agree. :)

PS: keep in mind that Dave ranted at me, so I ranted back.


Err, no. I don't think so. And if I did type something interpretable as a spleen-venting, I don't recall (and cannot find in this thread) anything of the sort written by me and directed personally at you. So... nope.

Er, yes. Read it again. Read my posts before that, which were, ah, calm, then read yours again. Dave, I don't care if you rant. Makes the discussion fun. I like a little juice.

You're welcome to disagree. Thats why I put this thread here. Please keep it civil and not personal.


What, exactly, did you take personally? It appears this is not one of those free-for-all forums, but it is a forum. Why would you take anything personally/
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:39 am

AK Dave wrote:
pad-thai wrote:
I sure dont know why you took such offense at my post...brother...but it is okay, I wont cyberkick your butt. :)


Dave, relax. We're having a good old fashioned argument here. My initial impression of you is that you liked a good argument. I hold no animosity toward you, whatsoever. I don't even know you.


This is all FedoraRefugee that you're quoting in this message, pad-thai.


Ah, OK, fine. But i didn't read all of his post. I'm tired, you know, and I have that thing that happens to you eyes when you get to be about 40. That was my unpremeditated response. You don't seem to want to debate the point. You want to debate technicalities.
Last edited by pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:43 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:I was gonna mention that too, but what is the point? I have come to the same conclusions that you have and decided to just drop it. He is welcome to his opinion.


OK. But your conclusions are wrong.

Its easy to make a judgement and toss it off when you don't want to consider other alternatives. Like I said, I didn't fully read your post. Maybe I'll go back and take a look. Or, you can forget it.

Really, its getting to be 10 posts at a time I have to answer.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:49 am

Ozz wrote:I have to say that I agree on several points, that some of the newby questions can be answered by some googling on the forum, and reading the How-to's on the forums of Mint and Ubuntu.

I am amazed at the patience that some of the people on this forum have exhibited, such as the ones taking part in this discussion Freds AK DAve etc or Husse (who answers most of the newby posts, often reiterating something that he has already said 3 days ago to a similar question)

Am I allowed to add names of people not on this thread? (If not I will edit my note)

I believe myself that Linux can be for the masses. Anyone curious enough to try the Linux OS's should then be curious enough to look on forums should anything be difficult to understand.

I understand that the RTFM (read the full manual in polite terms) is what one feels when someone says for the 100th time, my flash plugin is not working in firefox (mea culpa, although I did not create a post on that issue, I answered another thread) but then as an ex-teacher, I remember how some people need guidance. Not everyone is confident in their IT skills. Linux is a community and in a community there are always the wise ones and ... the less wise ones.

The only drawback to people posting their problems without checking that the question has not been asked already is that you end up with the forum full of disparate posts, a bit like a synaptic package with orphan debs :D . It makes it difficult for others to find the relevant thread. This is why the work of the administrators is so difficult.

I thank all of you for your hard work and your different philosophies.

I work as a head hunter, and Clem (and team) I admire you for investing some much of your time into this project, when all I see when I talk to clients is profit profit profit

I grade Linux as one of the most advanced showcases of what humanity can do when they decide to pool together.


I don't quite agree with everything you've said. But I agree with much of it.

Finally, a balanced approach.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:03 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:
And that is the point.

To an extent this is going to happen no matter what. The Fedora forum is a great model for this because of its size and pace. I would imagine you would see the same over at Ubuntu. It is really a factor of many things. People just get so intent on what is happening to them that they cannot rationally reason. They are new to this and feel it is the "product's" fault rather than their not understanding the Linux way. They usually get hit on install with multiple problems, many of which are causing other problems, and they do not know where to start. ETC, ETC.


Good post. I think we see each other half-way, at least.

Sure it clogs forums, sure you answer the same question 100 times. That's what my lawn mower's customer service people do all day. But its necessary when a product becomes something for the masses. If Linux does not want to be a product for the masses, they better do something, and fast.

Yes, Linux is all volunteer. And that makes it difficult. But when someone wants to print their corporate budget out at 4am, they don't care that its all volunteer. That's the price thats paid when Linux gets where it is.
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