My Linux Philosophy

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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:34 am

ezsurfer wrote:I wanted to jump in here, Wow, what a thread.

Glad you liked it. That was the point. I don't see this discussion much around the Linux world.

Nah. Can't really say that was the point. I committed the unpardonable sin, the one never to be forgiven. I disagreed. Its turned into this.

Then, the personal afronts flew in. And rightfully, were identified as easily detracting from the previously excellent sharing of ideology.

Again, I'm not sure what it is with the "personal affronts" stuff. Its all part of a good time. Seriously, if it had been Dave who "insulted" me, I wouldn't have taken offense.

But the same person that says RTFM is not the way a community should act, needs to understand to keep the discussion on point.

There's where you're wrong. I HAVE kept the discussion on point. It got off point when everyone started lambasting me for throwing an insult. An insult, by the way, that I would have edited out, but couldn't.

Telling folks later they have thin skin is exactly analogous to RTFM.


Yeah, I'll give you that one. The Linux community, and the people on this forum, should take it as an indication of how others feel when they are told to RTFM.

It wasn't an argument, ...It's not for fun, it was meant to detract and try to win a percieved argument.

You're wrong. It was not meant to win an argument. It was part of the argument.

You won me in the beginning, and lost my support when you personalized your words.

You don't seem to understand. Why do I need your support?

You're too sensitive.
heh.

Folks, I have apologized. I have kowtowed. I have supplicated at bended knee in front of AK Dave for a remark I WANTED to edit out, but was replied to before I could do so.

Yet all anyone wants to talk about is that remark, not Dave's philosophy. Don't blame ME for this. Blame yourselves. I have not redirected this discussion. You have.

Its easier for you to discuss my behavior than the issue at hand. A straw man if I ever saw one.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:42 am

AK Dave wrote:The discussion is valuable. This thread is still valuable.
Philosophy and discussion is healthy, but I do think we can have that and grow from it without being excessively dramatic..


STILL valuable? Excessively dramatic? I'm offended!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you insulting me?
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:13 pm

pad-thai wrote:you just can't post a contrary opinion without getting flamed for it.


If you feel like you are flamed for posting a contrary opinion, it is only because the fire begins with and is fanned by you. Your posting style is to be confrontational and spammy. I say this not for the purpose of being confrontational myself, but merely to bring this to your attention.

Spammy? Yes: it is not necessary to post separately for each little statement or zinger you wish to shoot off, when one post would suffice, unless you're just trying to stack your post-count.

pad-thai wrote:I disagree. Mint is about a half inch from being a windows clone now.


Mint is a linux distro tailored for the desktop. Windows is also tailored for the desktop. They are both designed to be used by similar people for similar purposes, but built from radically different baseline standards. I fail to see how that makes Mint a Windows clone. Is it that they both have a GUI? I believe that X predates Windows, so perhaps that means both are trying to be Unix clones.

The underlying OS of Mint is gnu/linux, which can be tailored for a variety of applications and uses depending on what other tools and applications are layered on it. Mint layers applications and tools most suitable for desktop use. Which is not to say that the underlying OS cannot be used for server purposes, because it can, or that Mint with all of its desktop baggage could not be loaded with server apps, but that the designed/intended/optimal use of Mint is on the desktop not the server.

Two cars in a family's driveway have the the exact same engine in them: a Suburban and a Camaro. Which would they use to tow a horse trailer? Which would you guess is the vehicle that they load their children in to go to church? Which one does the teenage son want to drive on Saturday night to impress a date?

Its like that with Linux. You might have two different distros, both with the exact same kernel (the engine). One might be built out as a lean mean desktop distro suitable for ancient legacy hardware, another might be built out as a solid multi-function web server, another intended for desktop use and a big fat iso loaded with lots of applications, and still another be built as a lean fileserver with a custom web-based admin interface. They're all gnu/linux; they're all Linux.

That's because they've been told, over and over, by members of the Linux community, that Linux IS a free version of Windows.


To be perfectly honest, these people have been lied to. Linux is definitely NOT a free version of Windows. It is a free version of Linux.

Linux is as much a free version of Windows as HAM radio is "free long distance".

pad-thai wrote:NO. We're not talking about DRIVING it. We're talking about MAINTAINING it. Progress is about learning to drive it, but relying on someone else to maintain it.


I'm not so much talking about learning to "maintain" as simply learning to change your own oil or swap a spare tire.

The reality is that there is a huge infrastructure built around people with zero technical skill and zero interest in learning paying huge fees so that someone with next-to-zero technical skill can perform decidedly UN-technical maintenance on home computers that run Windows. So if you run Windows, have no technical skill, have no interest in learning, you can easily pay someone to do your maintenance for you.

But there is NO such readily-accessable commercial infrastructure, no GeekSquad, for Linux. There are "paid support channels", but thats not the same. If "progress" means that Joe Sixpack can bring "mom's 'puter" in to Best Buy and have someone "fix" the Gentoo install then I agree that would indeed be progress.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby Aging Technogeek on Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:36 pm

Got to put my two cents worth in. The biggest gripe I have with some new users in these Forums is that they come in as if this is a paid Mint support page like they were used to in Windows. They demand immediate answers to questions without providing adequate information and get irate when asked to do the simplest tasks(like providing the output from "lspci" or "lsusb") so we can determine what the problem is. They seem to think that we can check their computers via the internet like Microsoft can.

Then , when given advice as to a possible solution (usually with the caveat that "all systems are different and what worked for me may not work for you") and the advice doesn't help (often because they didn't do things properly); they complain that its too hard to understand or too long a procedure, etc. These are the types that should never have left their safe(?) Windows - where they could be sure that Microsoft was in control of everything.

Then there are those who ask for (and truly need) help but will not wait for answers but go ahead and try anything even if they don't know what they are doing. At least they show a willingness to do something on their own . The problem here is that more often than not, by the time you post a reply to their original question, they have generated an entirely new set of problems. Eventually they learn to listen, learn to do it themselves, or quit Linux (often crying loudly about how hard Linux is and how unhelpful the forums are). It would be so much easier if these types would read the User Guide and/or the man pages instead of instantly posting every time their OS hiccups.

Lastly, I wish more posters would post back when their problem is solved and so mark the thread. They don't have to thank those who helped (although it would be nice) but at least the helpers would know that they were effective. I really hate it when I've spent maybe 3 or 4 days talking a poster through a fix for his problem and he(or she) just disappears when they get their solution. This is not only rude and inconsiderate to those who volunteered their time to help, it leaves anyone following the thread (or reading it later) in the dark about whether the suggested fix worked.

That's my rant. Thanks for providing me a place to vent.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby rjohn on Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:57 pm

AkDave and Pad Thai-
You guys, (firstly AkDave) really touched off a great discussion. I totally agree with the ezsurfer dude who said he was with padthai until things got a "little" personal.
In terms of the threads initial subject, you guys are both correct. Dave, if you don't want to help a brother in Soldotna because he didn't read the manual or the user guide or navigate the forums(s), then don't. I personally, have never asked for help without searching first. Evenso, the solutions are often ridiculously simple, it's just that MY searching didn't get me there. Does that make me lazy? Or stupid? Who cares? I thought the point of a forum was a free flow of ideas, suggestions, and questions. If you don't want to help me or anyone else out with what you perceive (with your level of expertise) as a basic question, then don't. However, please don't discourage anyone from asking any question with references to RTFM. Many folks are hesitant to ask for help in the first place, and responses which may be interpreted as rude or arrogant simply chase them off altogether. You are correct in that the best way for most to learn is to learn the basics and build from that. The operative word there is MOST. I do work in a technical field and much of my job is helping people understand and use the product or service I provide. I learned long ago that much of what I find to be obvious and basic is not understood by the general public. That does not mean they are lazy, stupid, or unworthy of my time.
Padthai, you had me until you went off on the "deep end". Dave has a perfect right to his opinion, and I did not get the idea that he doesn't like to help others with software or hardware issues, he simply wants us linux noobs to make an effort on our own. That's fair.
Linux is not windows, it's better. One of the intangible benefits of Linux is the forums. We can ask questions about our distro of choice, about Linux in general, or software applications suited to a particular task. That's not something you can get from windows.
Linux is also about choice. Choose to install or not. Choose what flavor to install. Choose which forum to search for tips and support. Choose which person or subject to respond to. Please, don't assume a question is born of laziness, and please don't assume a response is born of arrogance.
I have enjoyed reading the post.
regards
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:01 pm


If you feel like you are flamed for posting a contrary opinion, it is only because the fire begins with and is fanned by you. Your posting style is to be confrontational and spammy. I say this not for the purpose of being confrontational myself, but merely to bring this to your attention.


Spammy? Yes: it is not necessary to post separately for each little statement or zinger you wish to shoot off, when one post would suffice, unless you're just trying to stack your post-count.

Do you log in every 5 minutes, looking for my posts?

I'm not responding to each little thing to "shoot off a zinger". They make a point, which I want to respond to.

First I get accused of being a troll,, now I get accused of stacking my post count.

How about I just disagree. Is that a possibility?

Mint is a linux distro tailored for the desktop. Windows is also tailored for the desktop. They are both designed to be used by similar people for similar purposes, but built from radically different baseline standards. I fail to see how that makes Mint a Windows clone. Is it that they both have a GUI? I believe that X predates Windows, so perhaps that means both are trying to be Unix clones.

We seem to be talking semantics, here. By Windows clone I mean an OS that non-tech users can use in the same way they use Windows.

The underlying OS of Mint is gnu/linux, which can be tailored for a variety of applications and uses depending on what other tools and applications are layered on it. Mint layers applications and tools most suitable for desktop use. Which is not to say that the underlying OS cannot be used for server purposes, because it can, or that Mint with all of its desktop baggage could not be loaded with server apps, but that the designed/intended/optimal use of Mint is on the desktop not the server.

Two cars in a family's driveway have the the exact same engine in them: a Suburban and a Camaro. Which would they use to tow a horse trailer? Which would you guess is the vehicle that they load their children in to go to church? Which one does the teenage son want to drive on Saturday night to impress a date?

Its like that with Linux. You might have two different distros, both with the exact same kernel (the engine). One might be built out as a lean mean desktop distro suitable for ancient legacy hardware, another might be built out as a solid multi-function web server, another intended for desktop use and a big fat iso loaded with lots of applications, and still another be built as a lean fileserver with a custom web-based admin interface. They're all gnu/linux; they're all Linux.

I think that's basically what I said, in a, well, zinger. Mint is already very close to being a desktop OS, ie, a Windows clone. Yet some are trying to tell me that Linux can't be a windows clone.

That's because they've been told, over and over, by members of the Linux community, that Linux IS a free version of Windows.


To be perfectly honest, these people have been lied to. Linux is definitely NOT a free version of Windows. It is a free version of Linux.

You're right. They have been lied to. But that's the situation as it is now. Linux is not more or less complex than Windows. If M$ can build a user-friendly OS from that core, so can Linux.

pad-thai wrote:NO. We're not talking about DRIVING it. We're talking about MAINTAINING it. Progress is about learning to drive it, but relying on someone else to maintain it.


I'm not so much talking about learning to "maintain" as simply learning to change your own oil or swap a spare tire.

But what about those who can't, or won't, or can't learn to, change the oil or mount a spare? They will have to use computers, too. Windows is not a strong, secure base. Linux is.

The reality is that there is a huge infrastructure built around people with zero technical skill and zero interest in learning paying huge fees so that someone with next-to-zero technical skill can perform decidedly UN-technical maintenance on home computers that run Windows. So if you run Windows, have no technical skill, have no interest in learning, you can easily pay someone to do your maintenance for you.

But there is NO such readily-accessable commercial infrastructure, no GeekSquad, for Linux. There are "paid support channels", but thats not the same. If "progress" means that Joe Sixpack can bring "mom's 'puter" in to Best Buy and have someone "fix" the Gentoo install then I agree that would indeed be progress.

You're right. But because they've been lied to, those getting hacked on an insecure Windows are coming to desktop Linux. The only substitute for paid support for them is a forum.

Seems like we're drifting into Windows vs Linux rather than RTFM here.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:08 pm

rjohn wrote:Padthai, you had me until you went off on the "deep end". Dave has a perfect right to his opinion, and I did not get the idea that he doesn't like to help others with software or hardware issues, he simply wants us linux noobs to make an effort on our own. That's fair.

A fair response. Apparently, the deep end is a little easy to go off here.
I never said Dave did not have a right to his opinion. But you seem to be telling me I don't have a right to mine. I never said that Dave does not like to help anyone. I don't know if he does or not. I'm referring to the UNIX/Linux community in general.

I've worked with many RTFMers, and watched them tell new SEs to RTFM. I can't agree with it.

I'm gonna go watch the draft. Maybe in a couple days, if you want to keep going.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:15 pm

pad-thai wrote:You're right. They have been lied to. But that's the situation as it is now. Linux is not more or less complex than Windows. If M$ can build a user-friendly OS from that core, so can Linux.


Why do Windows netbooks outsell Linux netbooks by a huge margin? Its not because Windows is better, more usable, more friendly, or more powerful. It is because netbooks with Windows preinstalled are more available at retail venues.

Put a netbook, with Ubuntu or some other desktop-designed linux, directly in the hands of someone who just wants to "use it", and its fine. Been there, done that, and this very weekend my 64yo mother is jetting off for what may be her last visit with her mother, neither of them have ANY technical computer skills at all, and what does she take with her to RELY on for computing needs? Her Ubuntu netbook.

Take away the partitioning, the formatting, the installing, and frankly take away all the choice and you have a linux install that can be just as user friendly as Windows. Just as functional. Thats what Dell has with their Ubuntu netbooks. But why does Windows outsell the Ubuntu ones? Look at the shelf at BestBuy, or Costco, or whereever else the Mini9 is displayed. Which model? Windows.

Put them on EQUAL footing: factory installs, tweaked for the machine's exact hardware, warranted as they leave the factory that everything works 100%, and I contend that Linux is the winner. Except for one fatal flaw: Joe Sixpack can't install the EXACT program he's been accustomed to using for the last 3 years and has to install/use something else. But the underlying OS? Vastly superior and even easier to work with.

But what about those who can't, or won't, or can't learn to, change the oil or mount a spare? They will have to use computers, too. Windows is not a strong, secure base. Linux is.


In some utopian alternative universe, hopefully in a future that we're working towards that we can live to enjoy, Linux can be enjoyed in any variety on any hardware with zero technical knowledge at all on the part of the end-user. But thats not the world we live in today. Today, you need to be at least skilled and competent (or confident) enough to take a chance on installing something despite warnings that "this may brick your machine".

Today, if you refuse to or cannot change your own spare there are public roads in the US that you ought not ever drive down lest you incur the inevitable flat and be stranded for a very long time in some unforgiving climate. You probably will not be surprised to learn that I have little fondness and no sympathy for people who wander off into the woods with nothing more than a GPS they don't know how to use, a cellphone, a windbreaker, and a Snickers bar. And when someone wanders off into the woods looking for a Christmas tree in a blizzard and gets lost, disoriented, nearly freezes to death, but gets "rescued" to return to the gene-pool to further pollute it with his contributions, we cheer.

You're right. But because they've been lied to, those getting hacked on an insecure Windows are coming to desktop Linux. The only substitute for paid support for them is a forum.


True, and unfortunately a free forum with a handful of volunteers is hardly a substitute for an infrastructure of paid for-hire support techs. The forum volunteers can help find answers, but they can't do the work for you. At least not easily or for free. And we're usually looking for a more elegant fix, a simple tweak, that doesn't isn't some voodoo horsepucky like "reboot it, see if it works this time" or "reinstall it, see if it works better the next time".
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby pad-thai on Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:11 pm

The responses seem to be dying down now. Thank God. I felt a responsibility to answer everyone who responded to my comments, but I didn't want to make it my life's work. Now that everyone seems to have gotten in their 2 cents, I feel safe enough to move on. I'm not much for forums. After a few posts, I lose interest. I couldn't help but notice, though, that the thread was hottest when the zingers were flying.

There was one thing I wanted to mention. A few people said they agreed with me until I "went off the deep end". Seems that the worth of the message is less important than the political correctness of the messenger. Makes me wonder about the ultimate nature of truth. Guess I had it wrong all this time.

What I've taken from this thread has little to do with Dave's Linux Philosophy. It has more to do with how most of you are afraid to question assumptions and authority. You all march in agreement with Linux theology, like lemmings to the sea. I can't do that.

I respect all your opinions, even though I disagree with most of them. Hope you can say the same.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby FedoraRefugee on Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:30 pm

pad-thai wrote:The responses seem to be dying down now. Thank God. I felt a responsibility to answer everyone who responded to my comments, but I didn't want to make it my life's work. Now that everyone seems to have gotten in their 2 cents, I feel safe enough to move on. I'm not much for forums. After a few posts, I lose interest. I couldn't help but notice, though, that the thread was hottest when the zingers were flying.

There was one thing I wanted to mention. A few people said they agreed with me until I "went off the deep end". Seems that the worth of the message is less important than the political correctness of the messenger. Makes me wonder about the ultimate nature of truth. Guess I had it wrong all this time.

What I've taken from this thread has little to do with Dave's Linux Philosophy. It has more to do with how most of you are afraid to question assumptions and authority. You all march in agreement with Linux theology, like lemmings to the sea. I can't do that.

I respect all your opinions, even though I disagree with most of them. Hope you can say the same.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


You are right, I feel so ashamed. :roll:

Now where did I put that troll food... :lol:
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby dlkreations on Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:31 pm

pad-thai wrote: It has more to do with how most of you are afraid to question assumptions and authority. You all march in agreement with Linux theology, like lemmings to the sea. I can't do that.


Where is that coming from? What gets me is how most people who have something bold to say do so on message boards. You don't know any of us on here, so it's not wise to make rash assumptions when you don't know who you are talking to. Who here is in authority? I only know of two people here and not one of them was part of this discussion. Get a life.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby AK Dave on Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:36 pm

pad-thai wrote:You all march in agreement with Linux theology, like lemmings to the sea. I can't do that.


I don't have a clue what you think you're referring to, but your little zingers and thinly-veiled ad-hominem personal attacks have no place here. That variety of commentary is decidedly unwelcome here. I'm glad you're not much for forums, because you're not much of a positive influence here.

Phrasing such as "march in agreement" implies the accusation that anyone who disagrees with you must be braindead zombie infantry of some totalitarian fascist dictatorship, and thus you equate people who disagree with you with ****. Comparing people whom you disagree with as "lemmings" illustrates your supreme ignorance of the truth behind that old Disney clip while simultaneously accusing those whom you anonymously label as idiots who would leap to their own demise regardless of sense or logic or reason.

You say you enjoy zingers. Take them elsewhere. Your contributions have turned distinctly foul.

Of course the irony is that the old clip was totally staged, real lemmings do not behave like that in nature, and the only "lemmings" (ignorant followers) are the idiots who blindly follow the urban legend without bothering to verify it themselves.
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Re: My Linux Philosophy

Postby Husse on Sat May 02, 2009 12:52 pm

I have not read this topic, just skimmed the last page
That page is full of abuse
Things like
but your little zingers and thinly-veiled ad-hominem personal attacks

have no place in the Mint forums
There are other examples I can take by other contributors to the topic so that's just an example
I think this has gone out of hand
Topic locked
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