Microsofts counterattack

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Microsofts counterattack

Postby sco on Mon May 14, 2007 5:38 am

Interesting, disturbing ... atm i don't know, what to say else after reading this

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100033867/
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Re: Microsofts counterattack

Postby scorp123 on Mon May 14, 2007 6:41 am

sco wrote: Interesting, disturbing ...
Nonsense, FUD.

I was cricised many times for my overly harsh tone, but now I can't hold back: What moron wrote that article?? Look at the date! When you open that URL Firefox's window title bar will claim that today is "May 28, 2007" ... Excuse me? Unless I missed the last two weeks and spent them in coma or some Pope in Rome changed the calendar system again (as Gregor XIII did in 1582 with the then-in-use Julian Calendar ... and all calendar dates went fast-forward ... Please tell me that this didn't happen again and I completely missed it ??? :? ) today is still May 14, 2007 ... and not May 28. Also, let's analyse the last part of the URL: ".... fortune_archive/2007/05/28 ... " <== there you go again: "2007/05/28".

Sorry, but I can't take this nonsense serious if they can't even get the date right.

Besides, most parts of the world don't recognize software patents even to be valid, so Microsoft's managers can throw around chairs and dance around as much as they want, it won't have any influence whatsoever. :D
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Postby scorp123 on Mon May 14, 2007 6:44 am

Groklaw has the proper answer to this Microsoft nonsense:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070513234519615
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Postby clem on Mon May 14, 2007 8:08 am

I don't believe in patents, never have never will. Somebody please explain to me how an idea can belong to someone.

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Postby scorp123 on Mon May 14, 2007 8:51 am

clem wrote:I don't believe in patents, never have never will. Somebody please explain to me how an idea can belong to someone.
Well ... a new idea implemented in a real piece of hardware is one thing ... But software algorithms? What is software? Ultimately it's adding and subtracting 1's and 0's ... In other words: Software = Mathematics. It's a fact. There are very good reasons why most countries on this planet don't recognize software patents to be valid. It's plain silly nonsense. Company A has the right to calculate 1 + 3 = 4 because they have a patent on this, and company B who came up with 2 + 2 = 4 is now at risk of being sued because their result is 4 too? That's what software patents are about. A software patent claims some kind of "innovation" because feeding registers in a calculating machine (= a computer!) with a few bits and bytes spits out a certain result ... And God forbid you obtain the same result by doing some calculations and shifting a few bits and bytes of your own ...

As I said. It's nonsense. Most countries don't recognize software patents being valid at all.

And according to some postings I read over at Groklaw even under US law Microsoft's chance of winning are very dim. US law knows such interesting concepts such as "prior art" and "the laches doctrine" (= if you wait too long with a patent law suit you lose your rights to the patent in question!) ... So until then this is all FUD, FUD, FUD.
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Postby BlahBlah_X on Tue May 15, 2007 3:43 pm

clem wrote:I don't believe in patents, never have never will. Somebody please explain to me how an idea can belong to someone.

Clem


Well, an idea can belong to someone , but not for software. I mean like if you have the idea to make orange-juice powered fans, you can patent that.

But in my opinion you shouldn't be able to patent things like a file format. Its still data, no matter what the extension is.
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Postby clem on Wed May 16, 2007 7:48 am

In my opinion you shouldn't be able to patent anything.

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Postby bigbearomaha on Wed May 16, 2007 9:11 am

I can see patenting a product.

But they want to patent a result.

for example, If someone did invent said orange juice powered fan, ok, no problem. it's a unique device that will sell or not on it's own merits.

BUT to try to patent the said fan and tell someone else sorry , you can't sell your tomato juice powered fan because it's too close to my product. Well that's just a way to prevent competition and force everyone to buy your fan even if it's built like crap.

also, when a MS tries to patent said fan, they aren't trying to patent an orange juice fan. They go for the gusto and try to patent juice powered fans. encompassing any fans powered by any juice.

The fact that the gov't allows such broad patents is ridiculous.

now in the case of software, even though it's not a material product, it serves a unique, usable purpose so they have to "pretend" as though it were a physical device in order to give it equal coverage.

But again, MS didn't want to patent the Microsoft Office Suite, it just went to the patent office and said, " we want to patent the office suite"

very general and vague.

It's devious and underhanded to ask for but it's plain idiotic to grant.

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Postby 900i on Wed May 16, 2007 10:09 am

Like was said in 2004 "MS put up or shut up". Only the misinformed believe any of the rubbish that comes out of Redmond, unfortunately thats the vast majority of PC users.
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Postby scorp123 on Wed May 16, 2007 2:27 pm

Linus responds: "It's more likely that MS violates patents ..."
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199600443

And last but not least: Show us the code!
http://showusthecode.com/
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Postby D1Wayne on Wed May 16, 2007 4:32 pm

my bread may be buttered by MS owners

my fealings regarding this is seen in about 8secs into this capture :D

http://www.isnbiz.com/lm/m3b3.avi
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Postby scorp123 on Wed May 16, 2007 5:14 pm

D1Wayne wrote:my fealings regarding this is seen in about 8secs into this capture :D
My feelings for that M$ employee who came up with this license nonsense is best explained by this web site ... :D
http://piv.pivpiv.dk/
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Postby RedJak on Thu May 17, 2007 9:04 am

Since when has Microsoft ever respected anyone else's Intellectual Property?
(Need I remind you of Xenix and Hypercard?)
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Postby D1Wayne on Thu May 17, 2007 4:25 pm

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Postby scorp123 on Thu May 17, 2007 4:59 pm



My response to that Microsoft guy in the interview: :D
http://piv.pivpiv.dk/

It's still FUD and total nonsense. :D
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Postby rerushg on Sat May 19, 2007 10:24 am

scorp123 wrote:It's still FUD and total nonsense. :D


Well, I'm not so sure.
The American public accepts patent and copyright laws as "given" and meaningful to individual rights. Yes, we know that some smart guy in a cubicle at MS had a great code idea that got sucked into the machine. He signed away his rights to it when he was employed. No doubt he got a pat on the head, maybe a bonus and a raise, and was told to go have another great idea. It's unfortunate that it works this way but the public has no perception of this.

I agree with the general consenus that MS will likely not pursue patent litigation. It's just too expensive and too risky. So what's the point of all this dialogue? Well, FUD, to be sure. But I doubt that MS expects much success with that. Linux has grown to the point that it is virtually uncontrollable by mere litigation. Perhaps this is a diversion and a budding PR campaign to cover its real strategy.

MS has worked hard over the past years at softening its monopolistic image. The Gates Foundation, for example. Further, it has established proper political alignment. (Bill Gates' recent trip to Mexico was a clear demonstration of support for the Bush administration's policy there.)
Now consider the "Patriot Act", under which incredibly massive data mining has been done in the US by the FBI, NSA, and CIA in the interest of national security. We are told the data has been distroyed. Okay, maybe so. How about the ANALYSIS of that data? Where is that? We know from congressional testimony that there has been abuse of the Patriot Act by those agencies.
What if the analysis can be spun to show that "..unlicensed software and OS's are a fundamental tool of international terrorism..."? This does not have to be a public debate, only a "convincing argument" within the US power structure. The result could very likely be laws that prohibit the use of "certain software and OS's" on the internet with DRM as the enforcement mechanism. Perhaps it even extends to some sort of "privatization of the internet" on the basis that the private sector is much better positioned to provide control.
Bizarre? Sure. But "bizarre" is well within the reach of political maneuvering. Such a maneuver would serve this government well as it seeks to come up with a face-saving exit strategy from the Iraq war.
Perhaps MS is developing the software mechanisms that will assure the government that the objectives of the laws can be met. Perhaps MS is therefore entitled to own those mechanisms. Hmmmmmm.

The Linux community needs to remain diligent and vigilent toward these issues. "Free" is an extremely obnoxious idea to capatalistic thinking. "Free" is inherently a threat. To them "free" is merely a marketing tool to entice a sale and they will go to great lengths to destroy (or own) anything that might be really free. Historically, the most expedient way to deal with that is the political solution, not litigation. We may well have a "smoke screen" here while the real demise of Desktop Linux is been formulated behind closed doors somewhere.
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Postby scorp123 on Sat May 19, 2007 3:49 pm

rerushg wrote: Well, I'm not so sure.
I guess you should read more then? e.g. Groklaw?
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070518124020691

Microsoft's nonsense about their patents is just that: nonsense.

And besides, according to that Groklaw article I linked to, it looks like that with the help of GPLv3 their once so sweet Novell deal will badly backfire :twisted:

Quote taken from Groklaw:

".... Microsoft is a distributor already under GPLv2, because of distributing the vouchers and some other unstated things FSF's Brett Smith hinted at when he stated the FSF view. So there is already a defense, thanks to GPLv2's implied patent license. But under GPLv3, it's not implied. Here is precisely what happens to Microsoft when someone hands in a voucher after the GPLv3 is in effect:

If, pursuant to or in connection with a single transaction or arrangement, you convey, or propagate by procuring conveyance of, a covered work, and grant a patent license providing freedom to use, propagate, modify or convey a specific copy of the covered work to any of the parties receiving the covered work, then the patent license you grant is automatically extended to all recipients of the covered work and works based on it.

No wonder, as Moglen puts it, Microsoft has been tossing the vouchers wholesale out of airplanes "as though the coupons themselves were hot, as indeed they are". But now here comes Moglen saying even that won't work, because of the lack of an expiration date on the vouchers. And so, as the sun sets over the horizon, we may be bidding a fond farewell to Microsoft's patent bullying. I hope some friendly folks have bought a voucher. If so, you might just want to take a breather before you turn it in, huh? Then it's buh-bye to Microsoft's 235 patent claims, methinks. So nice of Microsoft to distribute under GPLv3. Hugs and kisses. ..."

Read again: Microsoft overlooked plenty of things. As soon as GPLv3 becomes active (and many open source projects are licensed as "GPL v2 or later", meaning that most stuff will auto-switch to GPLv3 !!) all their patents, regardless if trivial BS or not, become useless, because Microsoft too will be a distributor under GPLv3.

rerushg wrote: The American public accepts patent and copyright laws as "given" and meaningful to individual rights.
Well, good thing then that America doesn't rule over most parts of the world, huh? :twisted:

Why I say this? American copyright laws and patents only apply to the USA and have no meaning and no value or validity in most other parts of the world :D

It's as simple as that. Even if Microsoft were to win in a bizarre and twisted parallel Universe: they could only enforce their stupid claims in the USA. In that case Linux would return to its roots in the USA: It would again become an underground project people would have to secretly download from the Internet ... And that's it.

Even in that pervert and twisted parallel Universe Microsoft winning their patent claims would have no effect whatsoever in e.g. Europe. :D

rerushg wrote: I agree with the general consenus that MS will likely not pursue patent litigation.
Even if they did ... :D Read above: They can't do anything to stop Linux. Folks in the USA would download it secretly then; all further Linux development would then focus on Europe, Africa and Asia.

Microsoft winning their patent lawsuit would be totally disastrous for the USA :D

rerushg wrote: Linux has grown to the point that it is virtually uncontrollable by mere litigation.
Please when was Linux ever "controllable" by "mere litigation" ??? :D :D :D It never was. That's the wonderful part about it. If Microsoft would have been able to kill Linux by litigation or other dirty tricks, don't you think they would have done that long time ago?

rerushg wrote: Now consider the "Patriot Act", under which incredibly massive data mining has been done ... We are told the data has been distroyed. Okay, maybe so. How about the ANALYSIS of that data? Where is that?
And you call yourselves "Land of the Free" ??? :D Wouldn't you agree with me that this is a total sarcastic joke?? :twisted: Do you really think you are "free" ? I don't think so. :D

rerushg wrote: What if the analysis can be spun to show that "..unlicensed software and OS's are a fundamental tool of international terrorism..."?
And then what? Invade Finnland? :D Invade Germany, for SUSE originates from there? Invade South Africa for Ubuntu is from there? Invade China for they produce their own Linux variant known as "Red Flag"? Invade Thailand and India and Pakistan, for they produce their own Linux variants too? :D

Good luck with that. Your military will be very busy the next 2000 years or so :D

rerushg wrote: "privatization of the internet"
(Note: Sarcasm levels at 100% ...) That would be great !!!!!! :D :D :D That would mean that USA forks off their parts of the Internet and the rest of the world would then be free of spam!! (70% or so of all spam mails originate in the USA ...). I suggest we Europeans call our part "EuroNet" or something like that, link it up with Asia and Africa and let our economies prosper whereas the Americans may enjoy their DRM- and patent-infested small bubble of the Internet ...

rerushg wrote: Perhaps MS is developing the software mechanisms that will assure the government that the objectives of the laws can be met. Perhaps MS is therefore entitled to own those mechanisms. Hmmmmmm.
I hope you will enjoy your small Internet bubble then. If the USA cuts off their parts of the Internet and places it under MS rule than this would also mean that Microsoft's web sites are not reachable anymore from Europe. Yipppieeeh. 400+ million new Linux users: All the people currently using Windows would be unable to continue using this OS as they won't be able to reach the update servers anymore. They would be looking for alternatives and switch to Linux.

And the EU would then of course declare Microsoft a criminal organisation (such DRM software probably wouldn't sit well with the EU commissions ...) and outlaw all this Microsoft stuff on European soil. How wonderful! :D

rerushg wrote: while the real demise of Desktop Linux is been formulated behind closed doors somewhere.
This is impossible as you hopefully realise by now. No matter what they do. They cannot "stop" Linux :wink: They can force vendors such as Dell or HP to stop ditributing Linux pre-installed on their products, sure ... But that still isn't the "demise" of desktop Linux, people can still download it if they want to :D If you're too afraid I suggest you use a friendly European server :wink:
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Postby rerushg on Sun May 20, 2007 8:09 pm

scorp123 wrote: And you call yourselves "Land of the Free" ??? :D Wouldn't you agree with me that this is a total sarcastic joke?? :twisted:

Well no, I wouldn't. We're doing okay here, but thanks for asking. Fact is, folks come streaming in here every day to get a piece of that freedom and opportunity. :) And I'm reasonably well informed on the subject matter. Unlike in, say, China, Germany, or France I can Google anything I want here. :)

I had hoped to provoke thought on the larger issue of "the threat of political solution" rather than just another round of Windows bashing, or America bashing, or rerushg bashing, or whatever that reply was about. Parsing my comments into bits and pieces for the purpose of bashing something, even when we fundamentally agree, seems pointless.
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Postby scorp123 on Sun May 20, 2007 9:35 pm

rerushg wrote: And I'm reasonably well informed on the subject matter. Unlike in, say, China, Germany, or France I can Google anything I want here. :)
France? Germany? Don't be ridiculous. :lol:

Europe in general is far (!!!) from being even in the same ballpark like communist China, where people face the firing squad just because they opened their mouth. :roll:

Unless I'm missing something here I don't have the impression right now that you're "well informed", my dear :D

And as for freedoms: Can you walk in your street and drink beer although you're only 16 and not 21? We can. When we turn 16 we can buy ourselves beer if we want. Real beer like Heineken, Amstel, Tuborg, Hoegaarden, Franziskaner, with real 3% to 8% of alcohol in them. Don't like beer? Fine, take a Vodka then. Or one of those Baccardi or Smirnoff mixtures you can buy here in every ordinary supermarket. Do you have to "brown-bag" your alcoholic beverage? We don't. And we don't have more alcoholism or alcohol abusers here than other similarly developed countries.

Can you vote with 18? We can. For with 18 we are considered fully adult ... and not only with 21 like you people :wink: ... How many political parties do you have that you can choose from? Two: Republicans and Democrats; maybe independent candidates here and there, but that's it. We don't have limits regarding the number of parties that may or may not exist. Heck, you can even vote for the communists if you feel like it. Or the socialists. Or the populist right-wing parties. Vote as you wish.

Can you walk down a street while smoking a joint without being at risk that the police will drag you in prison? We can.

Do you think that any politician or official in the USA will face any consequences for collecting all that data you mentioned in your previous post? Here they would. Something like the "Patriot Act" where your own police spy on the ordinary citizen without search warrant is simply impossible here and if anything like that were to become known it would cost someone's political career.

Do you face jail and extreme monetary fines way out of any proportion if you are caught owning illegal copies of copyrighted material? Yes you do. Thanks to the "DMCA - Digital Millennium Copyright Act". I don't. I can copy what I want, for as long as I make no monetary profit of that it is not considered "piracy". I can walk down the street and brag with my MP3 collection and hold it under the nose of a police officer ... The biggest risk for me would be that he too wants a few copies of some favourite songs. No monetary fines, no jail time. Please try that in the USA ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nope my dear, you are not free at the moment, thanks to Bush and his minions and their bizarre creations such as the "Patriot Act" and the soon to be introduced update to the DMCA (250'000 dollars monetary fine + 10 years of jail time if they catch you copying stuff ...). As a fact: you are not really free right now.

BTW, Having your own secret services spy on you without legal ground (= "Patriot Act") is pretty far away from the concept of freedom as I understand it; and sadly: This totally is in the same ballpark like China!

rerushg wrote: Windows bashing
Windows is a pile of sh** and it deserves to be bashed. Sorry about that, but Windows and Microsoft products in general do absolutely nothing for me. The overall design is totally flawed in my professional opinion as IT admin and Windows as OS is per design bound to get seriously broken at some point ... which is totally braindead. Why do you design an OS that will break so easily if you give it some serious workload? Why is it so easy to get around all those pathetic security measures? Why are so many unwanted and undesirable network services running? Why are those services running under the "administrator" account and with full priviledges? Why aren't they turning those idiotic services off -- per default?? Heck no: Instead they ship that idiotic excuse of a firewall that wouldn't be needed in the first place if Windows had a sane design and those stupid services were turned off! Sorry, but I can't help but bash Windows. It's total crapware. And that after so many years of development Vista is the best they could come up with ... oh please. :roll:

The newest funny thing I heard about the upcomming "Windows Server 2008" is that they want to create a "Core Server Version" that won't have a built-in GUI but be "command line only". LOL. No thanks Microsoft, nice try though ... :wink:

rerushg wrote: or America bashing, or rerushg bashing
I am not bashing America, and I am not bashing you. Keep cool, chill out. It's just my observation that since beginning of the Bush era you people have gone on a weird path that ultimately had to lead to the war in Iraq, to the de facto invasion of Afghanistan, to the "Patriot Act", and many other absurdities. Instead of solving the problems e.g. in the Middle East which lead to the 9-11 attacks in the first place, Bush isn't helping at all in this question but instead made even more enemies ... And now they are all looking for an "exit strategy" ?? :roll: Maybe it would have been intelligent not to get involved in a war in the first place? :wink:

And as for "bashing" you: Nope. I am just trying to open your eyes a little. You should travel more I guess. Or maybe go and work and/or study abroad for a year or so. It broadens the horizon and adds new perspectives :wink:
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Postby rerushg on Sun May 20, 2007 11:09 pm

scorp123 wrote:France? Germany? Don't be ridiculous. :lol:

Well, I won't confuse you any further with facts.

You're right, of course. (As if you might think otherwise. :)) I have no clue.
Fact is, I'm just plain depressed.
After getting a college degree, doing all that Basic & Dos coding, building a 35 ft. sailboat, spending 20 years in corporate America, being involved in two patent violation litigations, traveling all over Europe, Japan, & Korea, raising two kids as a single dad, running my own business, learning and installing Linux on my four boxes over the past few months......... after all that I find that it was all a waste of time. I only needed to know one thing: Windows is sh**.

Well, I'm clear on that now so I'll just move along. I'm cool with that, dude. It's all good. :)
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