Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby waldo on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:11 pm

exploder wrote:There might be a fix for the current Intel issue. Someone posted in the bug report that a new kernel update today has fixed the problem. I am waiting for confirmation on this before I put Karmic back on to resume testing. I can live with some bugs but my graphics card has to work right! I might grab a daily build and check out the kernel update.

Edit: The kernel has been updated to 2.6.31-12, still waiting for conformation on the Itel graphics issue. The gnome-power-manager package is supposed to be updated to 2.28.0-ubuntu3 to resolve issues with suspend not working. I had noticed my monitor never went into stand by, hopefully the updated package will resolve that as well.

Edit 2: The kernel update appears to resolve the problem for Intel 3100 graphics but people using the 915 graphics are still reporting problems.
Yesterday I did the 2.6.31-12 update, and this morning I was surprised to find another very large update waiting that even required a reboot. That's a total of three very large updates since the beta release. One can only hope that this becomes untangled, or that they decide they need to delay the release. Obviously this is not the way they planned it.

I'm not experiencing any graphics problems, nVidia, proprietary driver.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby exploder on Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:37 pm

Ubuntu will release Karmic as planned, bug filled or not. The only release Ubuntu ever delayed was their first LTS release, it was unusable and they had no other choice but to delay the release.

I have been looking at quality practices of various distributions to see who is doing things right. These are my opinions, feel free to disagree or investigate and form your own opinions.

OpenSuse develops in what I would describe as conservative manor. New technology and features are used when they have been around and tested for a while. Milestone releases are for testing and are not upgradeable by default, you can upgrade now from one milestone to another but this is something new. Milestone releases are snap shots, you test them, report bugs, the bugs are worked on and the next snap shot is released. With 8 milestone releases and 2 release candidates I would think that the final release should be of high quality. OpenSuse also increased their development cycle to 8 months. I am interested in seeing the results of OpenSuse's methods. Milestone 8 runs like a final release, there are only minor bugs remaining in their KDE release.

PCLinuxOS has a policy of only releasing when it's ready. PCLinuxOS may be based on Mandriva but they will compile packages from source and incorporate bug fixes as needed and incorporate them into their packages to get things working right. PCLinuxOS compiles, builds and maintains all of their packages. Texstar has always been noted as being a perfectionist and I will say he is picky and puts an emphasis on performance. PCLinuxOS has a huge following and is often sited as having very good hardware compatibility. If you examine PCLinuxOS you will find that the kernel is custom built and not necessarily the latest, greatest, this all relates to maximizing hardware compatibility. Graphics card drivers are not always the latest too, again hardware compatibility takes priority. I would have to rate PCLinuxOS's quality very high. This is a very time consuming course of development and it takes a lot of volunteer packagers to build and maintain the distribution.

I tested upgrading PCLinuxOS 2009.2 with the new KDE 4.3.1 packages, believe it or not the system upgraded with no breakage! I mention this because to me that is quite an accomplishment. I have never seen such a drastic upgrade succeed before. This really is a true rolling release!

These two distributions seemed good examples of higher quality standards because each is going to some lengths to ensure they build a release that has hardware compatibility and is as bug free as possible. I understand that no software is perfect. :) Ubuntu seems to overlook quality in favor of sensationalism. Lets face it, most of us want a running stable system first and new technology added as it becomes mature. Ubuntu Karmic is at the beta stage of development with a release candidate approaching and a final release due the end of this month. Karmic's current daily build barely qualifies as an alpha release to me. The Ubuntu development forum is a flurry of bug related posts.

Reporting a bug in Ubuntu is almost pointless, you get the usual favorite bug and we are a small group responses or the bug is simply ignored or even added to a completely unrelated bug. Once a new version of Ubuntu is released it is pretty much abandoned and it's on to the next release. Security issues are fixed and nothing more. I think Ubuntu needs to take a more conservative approach to development and concentrate more on the quality of what they release. Policies need to be changed to address introducing bug fix releases of popular packages so they make it into the main repos. I do not think that Ubuntu should be as conservative as Debian by any means but they are obviously taking on more than they can handle.

Mark Shuttleworth said that the next LTS release would not suck, does that mean that what we get before it will? I think the releases that come before the LTS release are betas preparing the way for the LTS release. I am not able to come to any other conclusion because of the amount of bugs that are found and left in the releases before the LTS. Dell uses the LTS and now OpenSuse from what I have read, that kind of goes along with the conclusions that I am drawing.

I am trying to understand development processes, goals and standards. Our standards are high but we build off of a Ubuntu base and have to deal with all of it's shortcomings and provide support for our releases. I wonder if we are too dependent on Ubuntu? We have things in place to keep what we add from breaking and I wonder if we could go further to incorporate known bug fixes into our releases and preserve the changes we make? Could we for example, build our own kernel for better hardware compatibility? Warren Woffard built his own kernel when he was using a Ubuntu base for Mepis. We do not currently have the manpower to build all of our packages, that would take a lot of people to accomplish but could we build packages to fix bugs and upgrade popular software?

Sorry for the gigantic post! My mind has been on the quality of our releases all day. :)
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby emorrp1 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:02 pm

http://www.tuxradar.com/content/open-ba ... -too-short has tons of comments on the development cycle, and how that affects "quality". Basically every package we want to change from Ubuntu base has to have a maintainer who's going to keep abreast of any developments upstream.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby exploder on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:13 pm

emorrp1, thanks for the link! There are a lot of differences of opinion and gives me more things to think about.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby midas on Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:22 pm

Mmm...I have been ventilating my opinion about this subject a couple of times. If one want to bring it down to a central point, it would mean only one quality standard or performance benchmark:

I want a working system from the day of install through the whole using period. No matter what. And I choose the distribution that will serve that only goal. The looks and bells and whistles comes second. For me that means PCLOS or Mint when they will find a way to keep out of reach of all the Ubuntu-bugs. I hope so because I have a soft spot in my heart for Mint. The distro that finally made me deleting MS from my system...

On behalve of the whole Mint-team...I have trust in you and will not leave your wonderful distribution within a few weeks or even months. But at the end I will choose the distro that simply works without bugs and glitches on my system. No matter what.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby hinto on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:05 am

With Debian, who really cares about bugs in a particular release? Well, that's a loaded question, but seriously all you have to do is read the release notes to see what's broken. That really on affects new installations. If there are too many bugs for the new release, install the old one.

Now the Debian part... This is why I chose a Debian based distro. It's a rolling release. That means once it's on your box, then to upgrade to the latest, it's apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade. Ubuntu throws a curve ball because they are actually mixed repositories... (say jaunty contains Debian SID and Debian Testing packages + Ubuntu fixes), but for the most part, Ubuntu honors the rolling releases. Ubuntu does name their releases (jaunty, karmic, ...) so you do have to reflect that in /etc/apt/sources.list, but that's documented on Ubuntu's site.

The thing is, that after you install (and are happy) once, you can update your installation as needed and when you feel comfortable with the next update.
What brought me to Debian was one-stop shopping.
What brought me to SID was apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby midas on Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:04 pm

According to what I have been reading at the dutch Ubuntu-site Karmic seems to get a bit stable again? After, again, a lot of updates. Perhaps someone can confirm it as a fact?
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby exploder on Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:56 pm

Yes, things are starting to settle down again. I have seen work done to address the issues with Intel graphics, now it is mostly just a lot of little bugs to fix. With some luck maybe the release candidate will run pretty decent.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby exploder on Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:18 am

I checked out yesterday's daily build and things are looking much better that they were. I noticed that today there is another kernel upgrade and some xserver packages available. Things have settled down in the Karmic development forum and that is a good sign. I am going to see how todays daily build runs, it really looks like they took the Intel issue seriously and have taken steps to ensure that Intel users will not be disappointed.

My Wife says that I take this stuff too seriously, I told her that someone has to. I am interested to see if power management is working in todays daily build. I noticed a small bug in gdm but I am figuring it will be fixed and there is a bug report out for it. I noticed there were some python updates today too, this effects us so I am hoping for the best. :)
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby midas on Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:02 pm

I am glad you take it all seriously exploder...let's hope Karmic will be a good release and Mint Helena even much better :wink:
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby exploder on Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:10 pm

Well, today's daily build will not be getting installed... I get a black screen on boot and it kicks me out of the desktop before it finishes loading. I had to use startx to get as far as I did. Karmic might still need a little bit of work. :) Oh well, there is always tomorrow.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby waldo on Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:59 pm

I've been doing the daily updates to the original beta build, and it all seems to run fine. Yesterday there appeared to be an update to the nVidia driver, along with the third kernel update.

Anyone out there know anything about this new GRUB thingy? Every kernel update keeps adding lines to the grub menu, and I cannot find the file that needs to be edited to trim it down. It is no longer /boot/grub/menu.lst.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby emorrp1 on Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:56 am

waldo, see viewtopic.php?f=46&t=30623&start=0 for info on grub2
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby waldo on Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:04 pm

emorrp1 wrote:waldo, see viewtopic.php?f=46&t=30623&start=0 for info on grub2

Thanks! It looks complicated. Need to get another cup of coffee. :?
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby skilo47 on Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:54 pm

i find linux mint 7 is much nicer than ubuntu .

for some reason ubuntu 9.04 crashed my acer aspire one a 150 alot. i believe due to it using the ath5k driver for wirelss by default . (that driver sucks)

im guessing linux mint 7 uses madwifi by default as i have had no problems and wireless is much faster on linux mint 7 than ubuntu 9.04.

does anyone know what wireless driver linux mint 7 uses by default ?
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby ibm450 on Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:47 am

just installed 9.10 and after so many updates, i must say its not bad :!:

found it to be much more snappier the lm7 or should i say ubuntu 9.04

ill definitely install the new lm8 when its out. ive also noted that 9.10 used much less mem then 9.04 :?: why is that :?:

Also, i must admit that after using LM full time for about close onto 6 mths, the theme is much better then the default ubuntu theme and the menu layout is more fluent to find / search for your apps.

+1 to the LM layout + theme

So, LM8 is out when? Nov / dec?
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby exploder on Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:27 am

It must just be my hardware that is having the problem with 9.10. The last couple of days I can't get a daily build to get to the desktop, ever since the -13 kernel update. I could run earlier builds but kept loosing desktop effects and start up would be messed up every few boots. I keep trying daily builds every day to see if 9.10 will boot. Maybe today.... :?:
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby ibm450 on Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:53 am

ok, mounting new external drives are very slow to mount up on 9.10??? frustrating at this point of time.

LM7 boots up SO much faster then 9.10, both auto login

love the way 9.10 shuts down, so FAST !!!

love the way 9.10 uses so much lesser mem then 9.04
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby lexon on Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:01 pm

Last night I downloaded and burned the ISO CD. This morning ran the Live CD just fine. Installed the OS next. Ejected the CD and the PC rebooted. Real nice. I used a spare 80gb drive that has moonOS on it and divided the drive for each OS. Install and operation was fine.

Except, when I powered down the PC, later powered up, I can select moonOS just fine. I cannot select Ubuntu 9.1. What I get is:
error: invalid environment block
failed to boot default entries
Press any key to continue

The PC is what I am using to run Mint. CPU, 3g, 2gb ram.

Anyway, seems to be nice but I will wait for the next upgrade of Mint. I would rather support Mint anyway.

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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Postby Katzedecimal on Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:15 pm

I've been playing with Karmic beta main on my laptop, and Karmic Netbook Remix beta on my Acer Aspire One. They were very unstable when I first installed, with instant messenger clients (both Empathy and Pidgin) crashing, and odd hangs at bootup. Then I had one major crash on the UNR that necessitated a complete reinstallation, as it wasn't recoverable, wouldn't boot into any kernel :lol: However, another update, including kernel 2.6.30-13 and things have smoothed out considerably. Aaaaaand the intel graphics on the AAO's UNR have smoothed out rather a lot, although my AAO doesn't have the 985 chipset that's the worst victim. Wifi has been more consistant and has shown better detection.

I'm not impressed by Empathy. I've found it lacks many of Pidgin's features, such as, oh I dunno, popping up a window when someone IMs me, as opposed to just blinking their icon on the buddy list. If it weren't for the Gnome notifications, I'd never have realised that I'd been IM'd. Empathy also doesn't support mail notifications; Pidgin offers mail notifications for AIM, Yahoo, Gmail, MSN, etc. I've read that Empathy supports cam for MSN but I couldn't get that to work, nor does it work for Yahoo's camming. What it does work for is XMPP camming, buuuuuut so do the newest releases of Pidgin. I gave Empathy a decent workout but eventually went back to Pidgin as my default messenger, it's simply more mature.

Still, camming on the AAO does work on UNR now, as does the Wifi light, microphone and sound. Boot-up, though not 10 seconds on my SSD (I have an AAO 110L), is a satisfactory (to me) 25 seconds. Well, it's a CONSIDERABLE improvement over previous attempts to get UNR to run on the AAO 110L. And installation takes up 2.3 GB of the 8 GB SSD. Performance is surprisingly quick, considering it uses the Gnome environment, and resource usage is much improved; previous attempts to put UNR on the 110L were painfully slow and sucked up memory and CPU like a sponge. Battery management still sucks though, 2h20m out of a 3h battery. As a friend is considering UNR for her AAO 150XP, I'm giving it a much more thorough test-drive, hence all the details.

I did try installing the main Karmic (sans UNR tweaks) onto the AAO and was pleased to see that it displayed the AAO's 1048 x 600 resolution correctly. That bodes well for Mint users, as inability to display is one of the reasons why Mint is not on my AAO (it typically shows 1048 x 760, i think it is, and thus buries buttons, making it extremely difficult to use)

The main Karmic beta on my laptop (a 5 year old Dell Latitude with 512 mb of RAM) is unremarkable. Sound works, boot-up is fine, video works, wifi works, memory management is good. Stability is improved after the last set of updates, messengers no longer crashing. There's nothing particularly impressive about it, but I'm not throwing the machine across the room, either :lol:
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Dance without senses, no message I hear
Dance without feeling, I'll dance 'til I'm numb
Dance 'til I think I can overcome" -- Melissa Etheridge
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