Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Chat about Linux in general

Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby MaddogF16 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:33 pm

I just played with it some in Vbox, once again nothing special, find things are a little more complicated for a Windows user to get setup. Why doesn't everyone just enable all the extras for Nautilus right out of the box, especially "open as root"? Every distro I try has it not setup, except Mint of course. There may be issues with Mint8 RC and hope they get sorted, I would roll back to Mint 7 but really need the newest HPLIP packages for the new HP all-in-one I bought.
MaddogF16
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:47 am

Linux Mint is funded by ads and donations.
 

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby DrHu on Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:17 pm

MaddogF16 wrote:I just played with it some in Vbox, once again nothing special, find things are a little more complicated for a Windows user to get setup. Why doesn't everyone just enable all the extras for Nautilus right out of the box, especially "open as root"?

..Why doesn't everyone just enable all the extras ..
It is the distributor's choice, whether to be 100% legal, quasi-legal or wide open
--they all (distributions) have or show methods of getting those extras, you may need for media playback etc..
    Not everyone uses Nautilus (Gnome) as a desktop..

.. especially "open as root"?
Possibly that these other distributions actually separate root from user more completely, as in: root is created or created with a different (separate) password than the user; which means you can use su in a terminal (to get root #) or same as in a desktop style (Kde or Gnome) kdsu or gksu, except you need to use the root password, not your own user password

Quite a few people do see that as a fundamentally more secure system
    Separating root from user, in a more complete way..
User avatar
DrHu
Level 16
Level 16
 
Posts: 6287
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:20 pm

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby linuxviolin on Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:09 pm

MaddogF16 wrote:especially "open as root"? Every distro I try has it not setup, except Mint of course.

Then you have not tried the good distros... lol :D Parsix has "Open as root", Debian also I guess (in my memories at least Testing has it, but maybe I'm wrong), CentOS (and probably other Red Hat clones too) also (I use CentOS) etc...
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
User avatar
linuxviolin
Level 8
Level 8
 
Posts: 2055
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:55 pm
Location: France

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby FedoraRefugee on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:48 am

MaddogF16 wrote:I just played with it some in Vbox, once again nothing special, find things are a little more complicated for a Windows user to get setup. Why doesn't everyone just enable all the extras for Nautilus right out of the box, especially "open as root"? Every distro I try has it not setup, except Mint of course. There may be issues with Mint8 RC and hope they get sorted, I would roll back to Mint 7 but really need the newest HPLIP packages for the new HP all-in-one I bought.


Fedora was never meant for the Windows user and I am glad to see they are pulling back a bit from advertising their release as a polished, one size fits all distro. Fedora has always been about cutting edge, not necessarily in the apps but in the structure. F12 contains many new features, see the release notes:

http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-n ... n-US/html/
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Announcement
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarch ... ra-12.html

It is ironic that every time they have an awesome beta the release comes out buggy. It is too early to tell but so far there is a major problem with selinux and the nvidia driver and there is no catalyst driver from ATI yet. Again... There also seems to be other selinux/policykit problems. I am sure more will come up, it was only released yesterday and the forum is buzzing this morning.

My opinion? I remain a Fedora refugee. It does seem like more of the same to me. I am tired of tinkering and just want to use my computer. Fedora is just not for this kind of user, pure and simple. If you want to have some fun, roll up your sleeves and dig in, and check out what mainstream Linux will look like in a year then you will enjoy Fedora. But if you just expect everything to work like it does in Mint then stay away you will be disappointed.
FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby MaddogF16 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:29 pm

I think there should be a rating system for distro's then based on whether they have the intention to be a serious OS that markets itself to the world or just a hobbyist distro for those that want to play around with an OS.

I see it touted very often that Windows users should break free from their shackles and experience Linux. So then a Windows user says to themselves "OK I'll have a look", well what happens if they try Fedora 12 then, what insues is a bunch of headaches trying to figure out a OS they have read and lead to believe is way better than the geek toy it was a few years ago.

Right now Linux is a gigantic, confusing maze of OS's. I don't have an issue figuring out any distros, but I look at it through the eyes of a Windows user that really would like to dump it but needs a distro that comes very preconfigured until the get their sea legs about them.

There are a few that I would hand to a windows user and feel confident they could get computing in short order, and those are the ones Windows users need to pointed towards.

So in short a distro needs to decide and proclaim if they desire to stand next to Windows and Mac or if they're content being in a back room somewhere, and if you do want to stand next to the "other" two, then keep it simple and preconfigured. In order to do this the days of cd sized isos needs serious thought, there needs to be more multiple size iso available for a competing distro to offer, that way a user that would just like everything installed and setup ready to go can and will take the extra time for the D/L and burn or will just buy the DVD.
MaddogF16
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:47 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby FedoraRefugee on Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:20 pm

A serious OS? Do you understand that there are roughly 15 MILLION Fedora users?

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics

Fedora is a bit more than a bunch of geeks playing around with an OS. Fedora is building Mint's future, along with the rest of the Linux pantheon. Not that Fedora is the only distro that is advancing the technology, Novel plays a large part as do a few others. But Fedora is usually the first distro released that showcases new technology. It is the Fedora users who pinpoint the bugs and smooth things out for people who use distros like this one. This is the FOSS model, it is all about average people, you and I, doing this work, not some corporation like MS.

I do not disagree with most of what you are saying, but I do feel you do not fully understand the landscape. That is okay though, the landscape is ever changing and as Linux becomes more and more popular things are swinging your way. But as of now Linux is not intended to "stand against" Windows. It is just a choice, an alternative. It is free, it is yours to use or lose as you see fit. No one gains, at least financially, from you using Linux instead of Windows. Linux is confusing to newcomers. But once you figure out the fact that FOSS plays by different rules you will quickly understand the dynamics at play.

What does this do for the complete noob who ventures into the Fedora camp? I learned on Fedora, it is not an unusuable distro. In fact it is really no harder or worse than Ubuntu. You just have to know how to do things and where to find the info you need. Once a new user finds the forum we will explain all this and if they are not inclined to a totally free (as in non-proprietary) distro and are afraid of a little tinkering we mostly point them here. Linux distros do not compete, they complement each other. Mint plays its part as does Fedora, Gentoo, debian, Arch and any of the others. The system has worked great for almost 18 years so far, and while it will continue to evolve there is no compelling reason to change things. Linux is not the Windows killer many want it to be and serious Linux users really could not care less about defeating Windows. We just use our distro of choice. Enjoy the choice. :)
FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby MaddogF16 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:53 pm

Where does the number 15 million come from? Is this based on downloads? As long as a distro doesn't tote itself as a replacement OS for MS or Mac then I really don't care about it's ease of use, or stability, I would only take issue with those that try to be "replacements", for those there is a certain standard that needs to be acheived if they hold themselves in that regard.

I just feel for the average user who would like to free themselves, but can't because most users have busy lives and don't have time to twist and tweak on their computers,there's a certain basic level of userness that needs to be rock solid with every release, and I see to many times now where basic functions get broke striving for something better.

Try this once, sit a friend who is a Windows user at their computer with say a Google search window up and ask them to find a Linux distro they think they could handle downloading,burning, and installing themselves. There may be 15 million Fedora users that can do that, but there's probably 100 million Windows users that can't or don't care to do all that work in their busy lives.

Obviously I'm here because I like what Mint tries to do, I can hand off a disk and don't need to worry that I'm going to have to answer a million questions in the first two days. I personally use whatever OS is in front of me and can freely jump between MS,Mac,BSD,Solaris, or any Linux but there's a large percentage that can't.

Don't take this the wrong way (anyone), but why can't all the brilliant individuals that create Linux seem to make it easier, what seems easy to you or me is still very hard for most users, if it wasn't harder then there wouldn't be a need for forums to help just forums for talk.
MaddogF16
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:47 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby FedoraRefugee on Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:58 pm

The 15 million is explained in the site I linked. It is a soft number, but it is probably more accurate than any other Linux statistics you could find, especially distro watch hits which mean absolutely nothing. But in the end numbers are just numbers. Linux is not a "product" and usage percent really does not matter.

Once again I do not disagree with what you are saying. When I came to Mint over a year ago I might have argued with you, coming from the Fedora camp myself and having worked through the Linux learning curve ten years ago when the curve was still daunting. Today? With distros like Mint anyone can install and use Linux. I really do not see how you could make it any easier, it is much easier than even Windows. People are just acclimated to using Windows, but take someone with no computer experience at all and they would have a much easier time with Mint. I now see the value in this, this is why I, an experienced Linux user, still use Mint. I like a distro I can install in minutes and that I do not have to play with, it just works. And bottom line, Linux is Linux. Mint can do anything any other distro can do.
FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby Bit Mad on Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:08 pm

Difficult to install? What?! Installing Ubuntu in a VirtualBox was a piece of cake for me, probably easier than Windows would be - but I've never had to install Windows from scratch. The average user won't ever install an OS from scratch either. But I'm fairly certain that the average user can cope with using a bug-free Linux Distro if they're smart enough to use a computer... if they can usually pick up how to use new apps... how to figure out how every new DVD has a slightly different menu... etc. It's not rocket science once you know the basics.

Linux on the desktop is ready to be used, quite clearly IMHO.

The only remaining issue is - do people need it? When all the PCs they buy come with Windows on, when their PC at work has Windows, all the apps they know are Windows.... why do they need anything different?

Even I don't need it. I'm just tinkering because it fascinates me, and because I'd like to edit video for free and there's nothing in Windows worth using for nada. So I'm looking into OpenShot, Kdenlive, Cinerella/Lumiera etc to see what kind of alternative that is. It's all about the apps, really... I couldn't care less what OS I'm in so long as I can work on whatever files I need to work on. For music, text, video, websurfing, who cares what the windows and OS look like, really?! :) .... but I must say Ubuntu (and moreso LM style-wise) has really impressed me so far, so don't take that ambivalence the wrong way. I've got 20 years+ experience of DOS/Windows and I'm comfy with its foibles and the command line & batches, so I'm loathe to give that up, but Linux isn't so drastically different - it's a similar grammar but the vocabulary is new. There's so much help out there, because Linux is designed to be understood whereas Windows is designed to conceal - and frustrate :lol:

Sorry if I've veered off course. Just my way of saying Hi Guys... I'm impressed with your OS 8)
I'm now reading http://www.linuxtoday.com/ each day, I'm keeping an eye on distrowatch and I'm finding myself mad keen on learning more.
Last edited by Bit Mad on Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bit Mad
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby MaddogF16 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:20 pm

Same basic reasons here, life has gotten way to busy in the last couple years for me to take the time to hunt down bugs and trying to find solutions, and having updates that break things. The Mint rating system for updates is a huge boon for new users and for more experienced users just wanting to keep it safe and working, A+ to whoever came up with that one.

Haha, not looking to argue either, nothing wrong with open discussions, that's how Linux should be. I still think Linux will always be that second OS on a dual boot that people play with, wish more could learn that it doesn't have to be that way.

I'd give Fedora 12 about 3.5 stars out of 5 for the new user, and 4.5 for more experienced users, I could have a lot of fun with it, it's just not super easy.

MaddogF16
MaddogF16
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:47 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby deep64blue on Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:52 pm

I think there are a few misconceptions here.

Fedora is driven by Red Hat, it is deliberately bleeding edge and the lessons learned there are fed back into RHEL which is a rock solid Enterprise version of Linux.

Fedora is brilliant at what it does - however it has never claimed to be "Linux for human beings" or "so easy a Windows user will have no problems", that's the space Ubuntu / Mint occupy and shows the strength of the diversity Linux has.
Image
deep64blue
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:47 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby exploder on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:26 pm

Fedora has never failed to work on my hardware. I was disappointed with Fedora 12 KDE because they did not manage to fit very much on the Live CD. Is the DVD any different?
exploder
Level 15
Level 15
 
Posts: 5813
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:50 am
Location: HartfordCity, Indiana USA

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby Beerislife on Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:25 pm

I used Fedora from FC5 through to F10 but instead of mucking around getting everything installed
on F11 I switched to Mint. I just don't have the time any more to get multimedia, Java and all the
other stuff installed. I was thinking of installing F12 but with the nVidia problems it just is not
worth the trouble. I'm also recently torn between Gnome (which I switched from Mandriva to
Fedora in the first place for) and the latest KDE. I can see lots of rocks and hard places :D

Just wish I had the conkers for a Mac :lol:
Beerislife
Level 2
Level 2
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:45 am
Location: In a cardboard box

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby FedoraRefugee on Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:23 pm

exploder wrote:Fedora has never failed to work on my hardware. I was disappointed with Fedora 12 KDE because they did not manage to fit very much on the Live CD. Is the DVD any different?


Yeah, the DVD is the full monty. Of course it is gnome, but installing KDE on top is not a problem.

edit: I should say that you can also uncheck all the Gnome stuff and add KDE upon install but I wouldnt do it that way. Just do a default install then add KDE on top of Gnome. That way you will not break anything. Of course you are experienced enough to know what you are doing but Fedora is very gnomecentric, and you have the GDM problem just for starters.
FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby vrkalak on Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:15 pm

I just downloaded Fedora 12 - Xfce edition via Torrent last night.

I just a few minutes ago installed Fedora on a small partition on my PC.

Everything seems to work "out of the box" so far.
Connected to my Wireless USB 3G Modem from the start.

I'm still playing and trying to figure things out, as Fedora/Red Hat is a different base system than I'm used to.
I've always tried Debian-based Distros.

The system itself, seems more sluggish, slow to respond.
Although, I do like the Fedora layout for the Xfce4menu ... seems to have more in it ... more efficient.
For instance, in Gnome the main menu is divided into 3 sub-menus (System/Places/Applications) and in the Systems area 2 more divisions (Preferences/Administration)
The Xfce Menu is not divided like that in either Ubuntu or LinuxMint, but it is divided like that in Fedora.

Anyway, I'm playing with Fedora and trying to learn how to 'tweak' it. :P
Image
:: LinuxMint-Debian-Edition (Fluxbox) :: Manjaro/Arch (Xfce) ::
Registered Linux User: #497031 :: DeviantART Page
User avatar
vrkalak
Level 10
Level 10
 
Posts: 3049
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:53 pm
Location: Santa Fe, NM, USA

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby exploder on Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:18 pm

I used to run Fedora Core 6 with Xfce, I liked it real well. At the time Fedora was the only distribution that worked right with the hardware I had. I have looked at the Fedora 12 KDE RC but I have not checked out the final release yet.
exploder
Level 15
Level 15
 
Posts: 5813
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:50 am
Location: HartfordCity, Indiana USA

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby nukm on Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:12 am

exploder wrote:Fedora has never failed to work on my hardware. I was disappointed with Fedora 12 KDE because they did not manage to fit very much on the Live CD. Is the DVD any different?


In days past, they fit so much into the CD versions that they had to be burned on a dvd to get a true image.

The DVD has the full Gnome/KDE stuff. I've been playing with it - neutralizing the ROOT snaggle and trying to get the Fusion repos up and running. I'm running Gnome since I fixed the login although I have KDE in also. I don't like the Goth/funeral/Dark crappo default KDE background. Everything is coming out dark lately, so I guess it matches the world economic scene or something.

Fedora is Fedora. Linux on the desktop in the West is not commercially viable. And, it will become less so in future. The box of the future will be a client linked to the Cloud, with all services by paid subscription. No more free lunch.

Fedora 12 had 40+ updates almost immediately. But - if ya gotta config it, I'd just as soon use Slack. Then you get exactly what you want.

I haven't tried the Live Fedora yet, and likely won't. I downloaded one, I forget which. Fedora always has been good. I like the forum. Berry Linux is a Fedora spin and I run that Live sometimes. From Japan.

I put Gnome and KDE in and just tweaked the GDM. Not using KDM. RHEL has both but only GDM and they shape KDE to resemble Gnome. I also disable SELinux which saves a lot of grief. Like I need the NSA to tell me how to handle my stuff. SELinux on a desktop - WOW.

So, Fedora 12 thumbs up I think.
"Books? Who needs books? They don't taste all that good." The American Connoisseur, circa 2010
"Radiation is good for you.Everyone should eat radiation to be fulfilled. (free translation)...Ann Coulter, circa 2011
nukm
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:14 pm

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby Bit Mad on Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:13 am

nukm wrote:Linux on the desktop in the West is not commercially viable. And, it will become less so in future. The box of the future will be a client linked to the Cloud, with all services by paid subscription. No more free lunch.


You're assuming that this overhyped 'cloud' rubbish will actually catch on, and that those services providers, desperate for customers, will ignore the Linux platform.

Personally I wouldn't use the 'cloud' as I prefer to keep my documents and data locally under my own control, and I can't believe I'm the only one.

Anyhow, it's a bit too early to know how it will pan out. :)
User avatar
Bit Mad
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby nukm on Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:22 pm

I forgot to add that F12 needs a shoehorn to get the nVidia drivers working. Have to disable nouveau and SELinux.
Fedora is a nice package and for their schedule, they do a superb job.

My other remarks were a bit off topic, so I won't expand. TV was free. Now it isn't. Government forced change. There is no money in desktop and besides, the desktop box is nearly dead. It is a relic.
"Books? Who needs books? They don't taste all that good." The American Connoisseur, circa 2010
"Radiation is good for you.Everyone should eat radiation to be fulfilled. (free translation)...Ann Coulter, circa 2011
nukm
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:14 pm

Re: Tried Fedora 12 yet?

Postby waldo on Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:39 pm

Bit Mad wrote:
You're assuming that this overhyped 'cloud' rubbish will actually catch on, and that those services providers, desperate for customers, will ignore the Linux platform.

Personally I wouldn't use the 'cloud' as I prefer to keep my documents and data locally under my own control, and I can't believe I'm the only one.

Anyhow, it's a bit too early to know how it will pan out. :)
You remind me of my experiences many years ago in another age (before the PC). I was just getting into technology equipment, and among the products I sold were telephone answering machines, which were complex dual tape recorders at the time (and rather expensive). I wish I had a dollar for every time someone said to me, "I will never talk to a machine!"

For general business/personal use, the hard disk PC with all your documents locally is conceptually dead. I predict a subscription model, where you can save encrypted documents on the "cloud" (your personal key), co-existing with the free service where your documents, correspondence, and browsing habits can be scanned for advertising purposes, such as Google does now. Google and other companies will offer both services.

Just yesterday, Google took the wraps off their new Chrome OS, which is Linux based, but it's not a full service Linux such as Mint or Ubuntu. It is a cloud computing system designed to only work on netbook type devices with solid state memory and no hard disk. It supposedly has a seven second boot time to full connection on the Internet. Of course the heart of the system is the Chrome browser. This is the future of what we now call a computer. I'm sure there will continue to be more complex computers for specialty work (multi media editing, for example), and for the skeptics, there will be devices to sync with and save your cloud documents and photos (sort of like a backup server you keep in your home or office).
waldo
Level 4
Level 4
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:55 pm

Linux Mint is funded by ads and donations.
 
Next

Return to Chat about Linux

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests