Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Chat about Linux in general

Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby remoulder on Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:50 pm

Canonical are running a survey asking users to choose (from a limited selection) proprietary applications for Windows that they would like to see in ubuntu. You can access the survey and discussion here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1381221.

This is going to affect Mint users also as long as ubuntu remains the core, so it might be worth voting and commenting.
[Edit] your original post and add [SOLVED] once your question is resolved.

“The people are my God” stressing the factor determining man’s destiny lies within man not in anything outside man, and thereby defining man as the dominator and remoulder of the world.
User avatar
remoulder
Level 17
Level 17
 
Posts: 7667
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 1:14 pm

Linux Mint is funded by ads and donations.
 

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby exploder on Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:14 pm

I voted, but like others stated, there are some apps there that I have never heard of. There were a couple that I never want to see in a Linux distribution too. This will have very little influence on LinuxMint.
exploder
Level 15
Level 15
 
Posts: 5871
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:50 am
Location: HartfordCity, Indiana USA

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby remoulder on Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:37 pm

exploder wrote:This will have very little influence on LinuxMint.


Biggest issue I forsee from mint's POV is users possibly expecting support for any apps installed via the repos.
[Edit] your original post and add [SOLVED] once your question is resolved.

“The people are my God” stressing the factor determining man’s destiny lies within man not in anything outside man, and thereby defining man as the dominator and remoulder of the world.
User avatar
remoulder
Level 17
Level 17
 
Posts: 7667
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 1:14 pm

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby exploder on Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:43 pm

Anything coming from the Ubuntu repos is almost guaranteed to work exactly the the same in LinuxMint as it does in Ubuntu. Also, I doubt Cannonicle is going to give away Photoshop for free or any other proprietary applications. I am guessing they are gathering information for things they might offer in the Ubuntu Software Center and what people are interested in. Ubuntu is considering selling software in the Software Center as well as the usual open source packages. We have our own software management tools and Clem makes the decisions where LinuxMint is concerned.

Edit: I should mention that there is nothing wrong with selling software, it is simply another available choice and people do need to earn a living. :)
exploder
Level 15
Level 15
 
Posts: 5871
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:50 am
Location: HartfordCity, Indiana USA

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby remoulder on Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:12 pm

exploder wrote:Ubuntu is considering selling software in the Software Center. I doubt Cannonicle is going to give away Photoshop for free or any other proprietary applications


Assuming Adobe allows them to sell it, this in particular would be a cause for concern in support terms.

exploder wrote:I am guessing they are gathering information for things they might offer in the Ubuntu Software Center


I think they also need to prepare some kind of pre-configured wine profiles to ensure any windows software they sell is going to run and meet users expectations of performance against the same thing running natively under windows.

exploder wrote:We have our own software management tools


Yes I know, but therein lies a potential problem in that users may expect to able to access the proprietary software in mint also given that it is a derivative of ubuntu.

exploder wrote:I should mention that there is nothing wrong with selling software, people do need to earn a living


As a (ex) programmer, I fully concur.
[Edit] your original post and add [SOLVED] once your question is resolved.

“The people are my God” stressing the factor determining man’s destiny lies within man not in anything outside man, and thereby defining man as the dominator and remoulder of the world.
User avatar
remoulder
Level 17
Level 17
 
Posts: 7667
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 1:14 pm

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby azumi on Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:12 am

If linux is ever going to get anywhere there must be much more commercial software available.
Large complex products based on - for example - 3D engines require the sort of development
only a coherent commercial team can offer. But there are other issues too.

Every time I try and install a program on Linux I end up having to go hunting for dependencies
or finding the right way to do it or switching from user to root and back again only
after spending days jumping through hoops finding out it doesn't work for whatever reason
and the "advice" given is to "get the latest release" and it all starts all over again.
Any attempt to install anything from outside a particular distro can be a nightmare
that never ends.

I purchased Nero4Linux clicked on it and it installed. No fuss or bother and no security
hazard involved with letting my computer roam the internet looking for bits and pieces.
It just worked. Not only that it does things Linux otherwise isn't capable of.

To this day you can't go out and buy a decent media player for DVD's because there is
no coherent organisation to negotiate and buy licences to play them back so - more hoops
on every single installation. Linux Media player is a bug ridden mess.

And yet DVD's are about to become obsolete - the rest of the world is now looking at bluray.
Linux is still diddling about with CD's.

Less unthinking fanaticism to support commercialisation will solve many problems at a stroke.

Like any form of fanaticism the "open source means everything must be free" fanatics are doing
great harm to Linux.

More commercial software will require distro's to fix things and settle down on a working set
of software that users can get used to and be comfortable with. This will benefit Linux greatly.
As will stopping this 6 month cycle of replacements that plagues everyone. That is just plain wrong.

The benefits of "application commercialisation" are many - the drawbacks are zero.
The linux community really must start supporting commercial software instead of attacking it
otherwise the next 10 years will be the same as the last -

i.e. Nice OS - so where are the reliable applications anyone can use?

Az.
azumi
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:52 am

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby DrHu on Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:02 pm

azumi wrote:If linux is ever going to get anywhere there must be much more commercial software available. Large complex products based on - for example - 3D engines require the sort of development
only a coherent commercial team can offer.
But there are other issues too.

Large complex products based on - for example - 3D engines ...
Not totally true
--of course money talks, but it is not the only method of getting a product developed..
http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Lin ... s_software
http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20070 ... lents.html


I think it might be nice if Adobe or Intuit (Quickbooks) offered their product line for Linux, but it would be a shame if that action (which I doubt will happen anyway) dries up support for OSS applications, that already can do all or mostly all of the same job as Adobe's or product line, but don't get the same respect in the marketplace.
--->like
  • Blender
    --3D animation
  • Gimp or Gimpshop
    --photoshop
  • Dreamweaver
    --Oh, I don't know, do you really need it, but in any case Kompozer
  • Flash or Adobe air
    --Openlazlo
User avatar
DrHu
Level 16
Level 16
 
Posts: 6694
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:20 pm

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby markfiend on Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:19 pm

azumi wrote:Like any form of fanaticism the "open source means everything must be free" fanatics are doing
great harm to Linux.

You've got it precisely backwards. For software to be free* it must be open source.

(Free as in free speech, not as in free beer. I don't mind paying for things, as long as I can do what I want with it once I've bought it. Restrictive closed-source licenses forbid that.)
Every time I try and install a program on Linux I end up having to go hunting for dependencies
You're doing it wrong. Assuming you're using Mint or another Ubuntu derivative, apt (and its GUIs, Synaptic, MintInstall, etc.) will take care of the dependencies for you.
To this day you can't go out and buy a decent media player for DVD's because there is
no coherent organisation to negotiate and buy licences to play them back so - more hoops
on every single installation. Linux Media player is a bug ridden mess.

I've never had a problem with any of my numerous DVDs.

You know, the more I read of your posts, the more I'm starting to think you're a troll (or a Microsoft shill) spreading anti-Linux FUD.

Edit to add:
The benefits of "application commercialisation" are many - the drawbacks are zero.
:lol: Ridiculous. I'll give you two words: software patents.

Read this and tell me software patents are a good idea: http://webshop.ffii.org/
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
User avatar
markfiend
Level 4
Level 4
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:56 pm
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby azumi on Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:31 pm

Markfiend - I can only say you were either very tired as you wrote that or you are a very confused person.

Az.
azumi
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:52 am

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby Carl on Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:31 pm

azumi wrote:Markfiend - I can only say you were either very tired as you wrote that or you are a very confused person.

Az.


That's paticularly uncalled for :? and I happen to agree with Markfiend on every point he picked in his post so maybe you should consider who actually is tired or confused :roll:
[AMD Sempron 145 2.8GHz + Unlocked 2nd Core|ATI Radeon™ HD3000 Graphics|4GB DDR3|Biostar A780L3L]
Image
User avatar
Carl
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: West Sussex, UK

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby Kendall on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:51 pm

There are some decent points both ways here. Personally I think Linux would greatly benefit from having more proprietary applications available. There are plenty of FOSS purists who gladly disagree with me, but my argument is that sometimes seeing your enemy on your home turf is the best way to drive someone to improve and/or innovate.

That being said, there are more people who would seriously consider transitioning to Linux if the application support was what they needed. As mentioned, Intuit has some products that many businesses depend on and have large IT infrastructures built upon. As an example, there is no effective FOSS equivalent for Quickbooks Pro and even if there was, then many companies still wouldn't switch because they have years and years of data that only works in Quickbooks Pro. Depending upon the scale of the business, transferring this data to other software could be very expensive if the other software doesn't have native support for the correct file format. In addition there would be training expenses involved, along with a marked reduction in productivity until everyone gets really comfortable with the new setup.

Also, "application commercialization" doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with software patents. Software patents exist as a method of controlling existing marketplaces and hindering the emergence of new ones except under strictly controlled circumstances. Building a proprietary application, selling it, supporting it, and making a good living (or a good fortune) as a result doesn't mean you need to seek patents, it means you need to stay innovative in order to maintain your market share and thus your income.

I'm not a FOSS purist, I'm an operations manager and analyst. I get my paycheck by doing whatever is necessary to reduce spending, improve efficiency, and structure things to ensure that spending stays low and efficiency stays high. At this point, moving entirely to open source software in the company I work for would increase our accounting workload by about 40% and the spending in that department by approximately $30,000 a year. This is compared to approximately $2000 a year in software licenses and approximately $3000 a year in miscellaneous hardware and tech support with no workload increase. I do support FOSS over proprietary whenever possible, but there are many times when it simply doesn't work that way.

Encouraging the porting of proprietary applications to Linux will pull a lot of businesses over to Linux based on the stability over the alternatives. Once companies move in that direction, demand for FOSS equivalents is likely to increase and adoption of those equivalents is also likely to increase. Basically the whole thing is far from the "cut and dry" that most people make it out to be. There are factors here that are particularly subtle but those factors are what really makes this whole thing what it is in the first place.
User avatar
Kendall
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:20 pm
Location: Asheville, NC, USA

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby markfiend on Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:53 am

Carl wrote:That's paticularly uncalled for :? and I happen to agree with Markfiend on every point he picked in his post so maybe you should consider who actually is tired or confused :roll:

Thanks Carl. And I stand by everything I said.

Rather than calling me names azumi, how about a point-by-point refutation?

Edit to add: I'm not 100% anti-commercial software. I use Photoshop. I work as a web developer so I have to check my sites in IE. I can see that a lot of folks round here use QuickBooks.

But I don't like it, PS is the only closed-source software I still use voluntarily, and that's only because I haven't the time at the moment to learn the GIMP.

Edit again: Just thought of another thing:
Kendall wrote:As an example, there is no effective FOSS equivalent for Quickbooks Pro and even if there was, then many companies still wouldn't switch because they have years and years of data that only works in Quickbooks Pro. Depending upon the scale of the business, transferring this data to other software could be very expensive if the other software doesn't have native support for the correct file format. In addition there would be training expenses involved, along with a marked reduction in productivity until everyone gets really comfortable with the new setup.

On the other hand, if Intuit goes out of business tomorrow, everyone who uses QuickBooks is screwed. With free software, this is a lot less likely to happen; someone would almost certainly fork the code, (hell, if it's business-critical software, people would pay developers to fork it!) and we'd carry on without too much of a hiccup.

Also, there's no guarantee that commercial software vendors won't introduce radical changes that break old data and involve users learning a new setup. The move from one version of Windows to another? Or Office 2003 to Office 2007? Huge learning curve in both cases, and (especially between the office suites) MS have broken backwards compatibility.

It seems to me that people are criticising free software for flaws that are as bad, if not worse, in encumbered software.
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
User avatar
markfiend
Level 4
Level 4
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:56 pm
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby Kendall on Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:11 am

markfiend wrote:But I don't like it, PS is the only closed-source software I still use voluntarily, and that's only because I haven't the time at the moment to learn the GIMP.

Have you looked at Gimpshop? It's a Gimp hack that does a particularly good job of replicating PS. http://www.gimpshop.com/

markfiend wrote:Also, there's no guarantee that commercial software vendors won't introduce radical changes that break old data and involve users learning a new setup.

True, but a lot of companies have built their businesses on consistency and support. Most of these companies are smart enough to know that radical changes will potentially alienate their customer base. If they break backwards compatibility, then there's no guarantee that those customers won't seek alternatives to do their business with. In the case of Microsoft, they're large enough and powerful enough to where this rule doesn't necessarily apply. For instance, the issues with Office compatibility didn't cause a vast migration to competing products or FOSS alternatives. Other companies don't have this luxury.
User avatar
Kendall
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:20 pm
Location: Asheville, NC, USA

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby FedoraRefugee on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:03 am

er...It seems to me that azumi was attacked first?

You know, the more I read of your posts, the more I'm starting to think you're a troll (or a Microsoft shill) spreading anti-Linux FUD.


His response back was rather gracious and mild in comparison:

azumi wrote:Markfiend - I can only say you were either very tired as you wrote that or you are a very confused person.

Az.


Is there really any reason for ad hominem attacks just because someone does not agree with you?

On the other hand, if Intuit goes out of business tomorrow, everyone who uses QuickBooks is screwed. With free software, this is a lot less likely to happen; someone would almost certainly fork the code, (hell, if it's business-critical software, people would pay developers to fork it!) and we'd carry on without too much of a hiccup.

Also, there's no guarantee that commercial software vendors won't introduce radical changes that break old data and involve users learning a new setup. The move from one version of Windows to another? Or Office 2003 to Office 2007? Huge learning curve in both cases, and (especially between the office suites) MS have broken backwards compatibility.

It seems to me that people are criticising free software for flaws that are as bad, if not worse, in encumbered software.


Good point. But has this ever really been a factor? At least to this point? Most businesses would just use the older software and OS until a new solution could be found. But in the case of Quickbook Pro there really is no FOSS solution. Also, FOSS apps tend to evolve much faster than proprietary ones, especially when looking at things like...ergonomics? Though that is the wrong word...But the fact that newer versions of the program still function in a relative way to the older versions. This makes training less of a hurdle. FOSS apps are more likely to just throw away the old system and create a totally new interface. You cite the changes in Windows between versions, but really, it has not changed that much. Not in any spectacular ways that an average person could not figure it out without specialized training. Linux has changed much more in the last few years. Office did go to the ribbon and that does take some getting used to. I hated it for about 6 months but now that I am used to it I find it far superior to the old toolbar. Likewise, I was not happy about Windows 7 ditching the classic menu, but rather than preforming either of the two tweaks to fix this I just used the new menu and now I am used to it. Life goes on.

I criticize neither free nor proprietary software. Here, in the real world, people create things for a profit. You will never have the quality control with FOSS apps that you do with professional quality proprietary apps. Does this mean FOSS apps are bad? Not at all, but a working business needs quality assurance. There is a place for both.
FedoraRefugee
Level 6
Level 6
 
Posts: 1301
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:25 am

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby markfiend on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:14 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:er...It seems to me that azumi was attacked first?

Fair point.

Mea culpa.
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
User avatar
markfiend
Level 4
Level 4
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:56 pm
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby DrHu on Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:26 pm

Kendall wrote:True, but a lot of companies have built their businesses on consistency and support. Most of these companies are smart enough to know that radical changes will potentially alienate their customer base. If they break backwards compatibility, then there's no guarantee that those customers won't seek alternatives to do their business with. In the case of Microsoft, they're large enough and powerful enough to where this rule doesn't necessarily apply

Actually Quickbooks (Intuit) is exactly the same in their business model
    And when two companies use the same business model, the customer base of both lose out!..
http://finance.toolbox.com/blogs/quickb ... ws-7-35274
    Intuit has announced that it will only support QuickBooks 2010 in the Windows 7 environment - no other version of QuickBooks will be supported. Due to this and the fact that we've experienced considerable trouble with QuickBooks and various add-ons after we upgraded to Windows 7, we recommend that everyone think twice before doing the same.
    We do have to admit, however, they we have a very complicated QuickBooks setup. Because, for the most part, QuickBooks is not backwards-compatible we have four versions of QuickBooks Premier (2007-2010), four versions of QuickBooks Enterprise (v7.0-v10.0) and four versions of QuickBooks Point of Sale/POS (v6.0-v9.0)
http://zackcompany.blogspot.com/2008/11 ... count.html
https://idnforums.intuit.com/messagevie ... TARTPAGE=2

So buying commercial software doesn't always get what you want:customer service
    --however as you indicate, once started down that road, you have to stick with it, no matter how much the vendor sticks it to you; lest you lose all access
User avatar
DrHu
Level 16
Level 16
 
Posts: 6694
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:20 pm

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby Kendall on Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:31 pm

DrHu wrote:
Kendall wrote:True, but a lot of companies have built their businesses on consistency and support. Most of these companies are smart enough to know that radical changes will potentially alienate their customer base. If they break backwards compatibility, then there's no guarantee that those customers won't seek alternatives to do their business with. In the case of Microsoft, they're large enough and powerful enough to where this rule doesn't necessarily apply

Actually Quickbooks (Intuit) is exactly the same in their business model

Do note how my post there had no mention of Intuit. I used it as an example in an earlier post, but not since then. :wink:
User avatar
Kendall
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1580
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:20 pm
Location: Asheville, NC, USA

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby mmesantos1 on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:46 pm

To the OP thanks for posting this survey. It would be nice to see some of these apps available. It would be a step forward if they could offer the well known titles, it will attracked more people from Windows since they will know if they do switch they will still be able to obtain software they are familiar with. Well at least that's how I see it. :)
Image
User avatar
mmesantos1
Level 8
Level 8
 
Posts: 2280
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:14 pm
Location: VA. USA

Re: Proprietary software in ubuntu survey

Postby markfiend on Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:55 am

markfiend wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:er...It seems to me that azumi was attacked first?

Fair point.

Mea culpa.

With further thought, I unreservedly withdraw my remarks accusing azumi of bad faith (troll, shill) and apologise.

I stand by the rest of my comments in this thread though.
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.
User avatar
markfiend
Level 4
Level 4
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:56 pm
Location: Leeds, UK

Linux Mint is funded by ads and donations.
 

Return to Chat about Linux

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron