Why do new people give up on Linux?

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Previous1 »

It's already mentioned but I'll mention it again. The absolute lack of backward or forward compability. And no, open source doesn't help when libraries are outdated (backward) or simply missing (forward). Not like recompiling for the sake of it is exactly user-friendly.

And I know the "linux isn't windows" or "it's in the repos" arguments etc etc. But "new people" don't care for that. They know that 99% of 2014 windows programs work flawlessly in 2001 XP. They'll also realize the limits of any repository.

I've seen something quite interesting on PC-BSD on that regard. Every (PBI) package contains the libraries the program needs, and when installing, these are checked against your current versions. I've done things like that under Linux (eg Steam under Wheezy), but it's a painful process.
InkKnife
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by InkKnife »

I think a lot of posters here are painting a rather rosy description of how stable Windows and OSX are.
I have seen plenty of Windows updates break mission critical software, something so common that many in enterprise users test Windows updates for months before applying them to production machines. Sure, XP has been stable but only because it is ridiculously old and has had no important updates in more than half a decade so, sure, your applications did not break but the tradeoff is running an outdated increasingly insecure OS.
OSX is even worse. There have been many OSX updates that wrought real havoc with Adobe software and countless other smaller applications. Compatibility between point releases is really terrible in OSX and I know because I used OSX at home for the last ten years. OSX is a non-stop forced march of manually updating applications to keep up with system changes.
You just can't make broad generalizations about Linux. If you want a stable distro, use a stable distro. Most any LTS would be a good place to start. Don't use a distro based on Debian Unstable and then complain that its unstable.
Whether you are running Windows, OSX or Linux you have to make a choice. If you want the latests and greatest you get to deal with compatibility problems. If you want reliable compatibility you don't upgrade and do without the new hotness.
You cannot have it both ways and that goes for any operating system.
i7 3770, 12GB of ram, 256GB SSD, 64GB SSD, 750GB HDD, 1TB HDD, Cinnamon.
Previous1

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Previous1 »

Yes, one reason I switched from XP is because one update destroyed windows update itself (!), so I was forced to resort to third-party WSUS tools. That didn't mean I had trouble finding (working) programs (and that will probably last even a few years after its EOL).
Compatibility between point releases is really terrible in OSX and I know because I used OSX at home for the last ten years. OSX is a non-stop forced march of manually updating applications to keep up with system changes. (...)

If you want the latests and greatest you get to deal with compatibility problems. If you want reliable compatibility you don't upgrade and do without the new hotness.
You don't really help an OS forward by saying "well OSX has it too" (not that I would know as my last Mac was a 68k under MacOS 7 :lol: ). It's like countries saying their criminal records are "lower than average", even when rampant.

As to "reliable compability" on Linux, to follow up on your example I find it harder to run Debian Stable than Testing. No, not in a quest for "the latest", just for a working program. Stuff fails to compile or run on "old" versions - or fails to compile or run because of dependencies now declared redundant. Another example, RHEL/CentOS 6 (which is supported until 2020) can't even run Google Chrome anymore.

But in the end it *can* be done better, with some effort (like the PC-BSD example).
kalig

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by kalig »

My reason for giving up on linux (even though I have a computer science degree) is because a) people who spin off these distributions are typically dumb. I say this because for example, even the most popular distro (ubuntu) didn't take me less than 1 minute before I started to hate it about a year ago: All the applications were missing including the command prompt! Maybe dumb isn't the right word, but maybe "poor judgement" is the right term. Additionally b) To do anything with Linux, why must ever little thing can turn into a "research" project? I have no where the amount of time spent on researching on windows. I just can't understand what was it that lead the designer of ubuntu to remove all the applications on the application menu bar... This is what lead me to try Mint. Had Ubuntu decided to stick with KDE at the time, and to make sure those applications are on the application menu, I would have stuck with it. Then there was a whole slew of bugs, for example, in unpredictable fashion, icons would go missing in Ubuntu. I would love to try out DesignedWithCommonSenseLinux =) The only reason I'm using it now is to try to learn pen test and git. I'm not going to reply to this thread nor read it, but just for what it's worth in case someone really wants to know.
goshmo

Re:

Post by goshmo »

Lingula wrote: If GNU/Linux could be administered more completely by GUI then the directory structure could change in the way you propose.
My vote for that!

I spent my years "under the hood" of windows (and sometimes in depths of macs) and got enough about thing called "registry".

But at unix/linux world it's about as dumb to learn to figure out like where is the flash plugin to some browser.

My wish: A proper GUI tool to do about everything, instead of that constant sudo masturbation :wink:

(yeah, I like it, but sometimes you just wish the job is done like few clicks...)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by InkKnife »

The biggest reason people give up on Linux is that the available application stack cannot full-fill all their needs. Linux has a strong application base but it is simply not as comprehensive as that available on Windows or OSX.
My house is all Linux because it can do what I and my wife need but there are many software niches where the Linux ecosystem is lacking. It is getting better every day but still behind.
Windows has it all, OSX has a subset of what Windows has and Linux has a smaller subset.
i7 3770, 12GB of ram, 256GB SSD, 64GB SSD, 750GB HDD, 1TB HDD, Cinnamon.
rxd

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rxd »

Too much stuff just doesn't work.
I've spent way too much time fighting with my computer with Linux. For better or worse, Windows works. You just keep running into brick walls with linux. If you need anything more than the most basic features you run into problems. My iPhone and ipad are more full featured and robust than linux.
killer de bug

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by killer de bug »

rxd wrote:My iPhone and ipad are more full featured and robust than linux.
Come, have a coffee at my place. We will compare my laptop and your Ipad. :wink:
rxd

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rxd »

I would have to come over with my linux laptop because I can't VPN in to your network. Linux VPN clients are a disaster. :evil:

Now I can connect remotely to you with my iPad or iPhone using l2tp or Cisco IPSec no problem...
Viking-bg
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Viking-bg »

Hi,

here is my reason for giving up on Linux (my apologies for the cross post, but if I knew about this thread, I would have posted here first).

A month ago I bought a new computer. I thought that this would at last be the time when I could wave Windows goodbye, as I have looked at Linux for a number of years already (at least since Mint 8 ). I downloaded a number of distro's, but came back to Mint Cinnamon as my distro of choice.

Loading the live USB was a breeze. The distro picked up my mobile Internet (3g) in a flash. I installed, and everything was wonderful for a few days.

Then it started. After booting, Mint intermittently saw my Huawei E367 mobile modem. I estimate for every ten bootups the modem would be detected twice. So this was really strange. Then it sees the modem, and then it doesn't. Now it stopped seeing the modem completely.

Okay, time to hit the forum for a solution (and back to my old Windows XP box because it detects the modem EVERY TIME). There I read to apt get for a certain package (usb-modeswitch). Are you serious? I cannot connect to the Internet in the first place from within Mint. That is exactly my problem! How can I fetch a package on the Internet to fix a non-working Internet connection? So, long story short, modem is not working.

Next I connected the printers. HP - no problem. Canon - no printing. Hitting the forum again, I read that Canon is “poorly supported”. So, if you have certain Canon printers, then it is tough luck. So, printer not working...

Next it was time for the scanner. Canon - oops. “poorly supported”. The most frustrating thing is that my Mint's Simplescan's preferences page actually identifies the scanner correctly, but does not scan a page!

So, after four weeks of intensely working with Linux, I am at wits end. At first everything worked lovely, but then it turned sour. (I have limited my problems with Mint to the basics to keep the post short, and will not discuss issues like logging in multiple users without passwords and installation of packages like Latex, etc.)

I do not know what to do next. I HATE Windows 7, REFUSE to install Windows 8 (I have read numerous reviews), and my beautiful Linux Mint 16 desktop works like a charm, except I cannot print, scan or use the Internet (amongst other issues)! The three most basic functions a computer is used for, Linux Mint has hassles with!

I know I am not the only one. This Linux Mint forum is full of stories like mine. What saddens me the most is that I believe that Linux could be the most popular OS in the world if the basics could be sorted out. I do NOT need shiny new eye candy distro releases every six months. I do NOT need a plethora of distro's and desktops to choose from. All I need is a rock solid OS where I can be productive without reading forums to sort out basic issues like printing, scanning, and connecting to the Internet. So, sadly I sit here typing away in front of my Windows XP box knowing that support will end within a few weeks. I REALLY want Linux to work for me, but this masochistic experience has gone on for long enough. To vent my EXTREME frustration I have decided to write this post. The Linux slogan of “putting the fun back into computing” was just the opposite for me. This is NOT fun, and this and other Linux forums can confirm this to be the case for most newbies.

Ranting complete - thanks for reading.
Last edited by xenopeek on Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: cross post topic deleted
Lingula

Post by Lingula »

The user experience you describe can be found in OS X, but you'll need all new hardware, and I'm not sure if you'll be able to use your Canon printer. ;-)
Previous1

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Previous1 »

Lingula wrote:The user experience you describe can be found in OS X, but you'll need all new hardware, and I'm not sure if you'll be able to use your Canon printer. ;-)
That's not really helpful, is it.
Are you serious? I cannot connect to the Internet in the first place from within Mint. That is exactly my problem! How can I fetch a package on the Internet to fix a non-working Internet connection? So, long story short, modem is not working.
http://packages.ubuntu.com/saucy/usb-modeswitch
Next I connected the printers. HP - no problem. Canon - no printing. Hitting the forum again, I read that Canon is “poorly supported”. So, if you have certain Canon printers, then it is tough luck. So, printer not working...

Next it was time for the scanner. Canon - oops. “poorly supported”. The most frustrating thing is that my Mint's Simplescan's preferences page actually identifies the scanner correctly, but does not scan a page!
What's the exact printer/scanner model?
not discuss issues like logging in multiple users without passwords and installation of packages like Latex, etc.
Automatic login? Or something like this: http://www.hanckmann.net/?q=create_a_us ... d_in_linux
All I need is a rock solid OS where I can be productive without reading forums to sort out basic issues like printing, scanning, and connecting to the Internet.
Can't agree more. But it's a long way to go.
titianmom
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by titianmom »

I've been reading through comments here and most just verify something few want to mention: Some folks are just plain GUI driven and were weaned on Windows and will always want what the MS environment does design-wise, and they want the Linux designers to mimic MS. (Developers, please, please don't do this....then I won't have anything to load on my machines any more... :0)

I don't have any problems whatsoever with Linux. If I have any problems *at all* loading, its always my fault. But that's rare. I do the research up front and make sure that I've chosen a hardware platform that's compatible with the Linux flavor I'm loading. I run 4 different flavors, currently, on various platforms with no problems at all. They all run smoothly, sometimes for days, and they all do *exactly* what I expect and want them to do.

There's plenty of compatible hardware out there, you just have to be smart about choosing a "late model" machine by a trusted vendor who hasn't monkeyed with EFI and what-not, vs a spanking new one with the latest hardware. But you might complain that you want the latest hardware...well...for what I do on a regular basis, the "latest" is way overkill and unnecessary. Which leads to the next point:

What do you really need? I mean, really? For someone who wants to play the latest super-sonic games and their systems are basically glorified toys, then buy MS and be done with it. If you're into Photography and graphic design, then buy a Mac.

But if you want to watch movies, surf the web, word process, web design, buy stuff, manipulate graphics, etc, then Linux works just fine with no hitches IMO. And you can even play some games if you want, LOL.

Now, I qualify what I've written with this: Unlike 98% of the people out there, I was born, weaned and raised on UNIX. I was in college when they were still teaching DOS and teaching how to network using 2 DOS machines. Windows was just coming out in (sorta) full bloom. After years working in Solaris, I finally left as an sysadmin, and then I was forced to use a spattering of MS for a short time, but quickly jumped to Linux as soon as I could and was soooo glad to be home, again.

So, I understand UNIX; I understand the simplicity (yes, IMHO, the simplicity) of the filesystem structure, the concept of the kernel and the point of Superuser and being able to boot into different modes to repair a system. I understand TCP/IP (not Unix but important to understand for any type computer IMO), the elegance of the command line to get things done, to include scripting and cron jobs and the beauty of modifying etc flat files, setting up routing and NFS and NIS and DNS and sendmail, etc etc (not all UNIX but were designed for networking/UNIX).

My husband is more used to the Windows environment, and although he freely admits that Linux works better than MS for what he wants to do, and admits that, over the years, he has come to hate Windows, he still *prefers* Windows functionality, because it is what he's used to. He's a "point-and-clicker" at heart.

But he's also fairly experienced in Linux. But still, he believes in his mind that Linux is harder to do stuff in, but when I repeatedly show him that this isn't true, then he says Linux is better, but then fades back into wanting it to work like Windows. Its a twisted sort of logic IMHO.

Hope this helps someone to see what I believe is going on.

My daughter has a MAC. I don't like MACs, even though they are based on BSD/Unix. Why? I simply don't like Apple's windows manager, and I hate being forced to use their environment whether I like it or not! With Linux, I can pick and choose whatever environment i want to use.

My 5 cents worth--

Kim
rxd

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rxd »

Well, if in this day and age Linux users want a command line interface and don't like pointing and clicking fine. And if everyone had to make sure their hardware is going to work with Linux because Linux is finicky with hardware that's fine too.

Just don't ever expect to get beyond Linux's current 2%-3% market share. And that's fine too.

Honestly the problem with Linux is that too much time is wasted on different distros that only further fragment the OS while basic functionality is lacking. If 1/10 of the effort that was put into all these different distros was put into finishing up Mint or Ubuntu or whatever, Linux would be a world beater.

Alas, this will never happen and Linux will never get anywhere on the desktop and laptop...

And I guess that's fine too.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by frank392 »

Linux is a Huge wast of time for some one that needs a computer to do some work, there is always something that does not work (printer, scanner, microsd card reader, sound, Mic ) so you have to spend hour tinkering with your computer to make it work and some times with no good results... and once you get your system running it comes the dreadful updates or upgrades that will destroy your system again :twisted:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MartyMint »

rxd wrote:Well, if in this day and age Linux users want a command line interface and don't like pointing and clicking fine. And if everyone had to make sure their hardware is going to work with Linux because Linux is finicky with hardware that's fine too.

Just don't ever expect to get beyond Linux's current 2%-3% market share. And that's fine too.
You got it backwards. It's hardware manufacturers not releasing open driver code that's the problem.
The hardware world is slowly moving away from closed source, that's a good thing.

rxd wrote:
...finishing up Mint or Ubuntu or whatever
Operating systems never "finish". They are a constantly moving target. Requirements change. Tastes change. Performance changes.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by InkKnife »

frank392 wrote:Linux is a Huge wast of time for some one that needs a computer to do some work, there is always something that does not work (printer, scanner, microsd card reader, sound, Mic ) so you have to spend hour tinkering with your computer to make it work and some times with no good results... and once you get your system running it comes the dreadful updates or upgrades that will destroy your system again :twisted:
Or, they could have a completely different experience. My wife and I switched to Mint two years ago. It worked flawlessly with all of our hardware and peripherals. My wife, who is far from being a techie, has commented on how much better Mint is than the Winxp she was running before.
i7 3770, 12GB of ram, 256GB SSD, 64GB SSD, 750GB HDD, 1TB HDD, Cinnamon.
rxd

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rxd »

I'm sure this is true. IF all your hardware happens to work and IF you only do the things that happen to work well in Linux I'm sure Linux is wonderful.

But IF you have only slightly different needs you are in for a world of pain....
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by xfrank »

frank392 wrote:Linux is a Huge wast of time for some one that needs a computer to do some work, there is always something that does not work (printer, scanner, microsd card reader, sound, Mic ) so you have to spend hour tinkering with your computer to make it work and some times with no good results... and once you get your system running it comes the dreadful updates or upgrades that will destroy your system again :twisted:
this is unfair, many people do use successful Linux for their productive work, me included. As for my experience, I have printer, scanner, microsd card reder, sounds, etc. perfectly working. Even better than windows, for example Linux recognized immediately an old hp scanjet scanner, while windows requires a disk with drivers and almost an hour to install them with a lot of bloatware. Scanning software in Linux (simple scan, xsane) is far easier and confortable to use than the proprietary one.
Update and upgrades do not "destroy" the system, if the user (but even a noob) know to do it.
Active Distros in my computers: LM21.1 (Mate,Xfce); MXLinux (Xfce)
factotum218

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by factotum218 »

Going from the original post I find more people give Linux a go with the idea that it's not Windows/Apple. They have the OS in mind, not the software that comes with it. People who use MSOffice/InDesign/Illustrator aren't considering the experience they've had with LibreOffice/Scribus/Inkscape. Chances are they have little to no experience with them.

From that I always suggest switching to the alternative software that comes with a linux distro before even considering swapping out their os completely as most software is cross-platform now.
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