The house of cards is starting to fall.

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The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby exploder on Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:26 am

I saw this today, it did not come as a surprise to me.

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/359740/dell ... te-for-now

All of the fanfare in the world doesn't fix the graphics and other hardware issues. Lack of updates to popular applications and saying the reason is because of stability issues does not set well with many either. Ubuntu's releases seem like abandon-ware because the user is stuck for the most part with stale applications. People don't want to add ppa repos, they want application updates coming from the main server, plain and simple. Ubuntu may release on a schedule but the quality of their releases is horrible. More and more distributions are moving away from the Ubuntu base and Dell is no longer promoting Ubuntu systems. The house of cards is starting to fall.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby mmesantos1 on Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:52 am

Good article exploder, sad for Linux but Ubuntu is not helping. :(
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby exploder on Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:27 am

Good article exploder, sad for Linux but Ubuntu is not helping. :(


Too many people think that Ubuntu is Linux and it has become a poor representation. I hate seeing Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that plastered all over Linux sites when I know how crappy the hardware support is and they NEVER fix anything in their releases. I am sure that I am not the only one that is fed up with hoping that the next release will solve their hardware problems, because it won't.... Who dreams up the goals for Ubuntu releases? Shouldn't the first goal be that the darn thing runs on the average computer users hardware? Let's face it Ubuntu 10.04 has issues with Intel, ATI and NVidea graphics and this is an LTS release?

Could application updates make the system any worse than it is to start with? Come on, black screens at start up, compiz not enabling, are common problems we are seeing over and over again. Ubuntu can come up with a new software center but they can't make the system run right so people can use it! All the pretty little apps are not getting the system running. Would a Windows user want to re-install Windows every six months to be up to date on applications? Of course they wouldn't, so why would they switch to Ubuntu?

Ubuntu is fine if you want to spend all your time trying to work around all of the bugs and regressions but new users are not going to go to these lengths. PCLinuxOS 2010 KDE uses the approach better suited for getting people to choose Linux. If Ubuntu or anyone else for that matter used the same approach with a Debian base then Linux could advance in the main stream market.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby zerozero on Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:49 am

I started my unix adventure with Mint6, still have Mint7 installed and of course Mint9.
All this time i tried Ubuntu, every new release, but never did install it, it was always so inferior to Mint.
Two months ago i decided to try the new 10.10, and honestly i'm worried with the new Mint10.
I only see cosmetic chances, MeMenu, new sound applet, and that new Unity thing/crap.
The Mint team will have a lot to do to put a nice release based on it imho
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby exploder on Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:11 pm

I have been having issues with the Ubuntu base for some time now. I have less and less time to devote to working around issues and searching for ppa repos. I am guessing that Dell customers are having similar issues and supporting Ubuntu would be a total nightmare. I use PCLinuxOS KDE as an example because they do not confine themselves to being based on any distribution in particular, they search for and build packages that resolve bugs and regressions. Much of PCLinuxOS is built strait from source code and they supply their own fixes as they find a need. PCLinuxOS has not been based on Mandriva for a long time and many are not aware of this.

Ubuntu has the developers to build a decent product, they can get people to try their releases with all the news articles and pretty apps but it gets stale very quickly. New technology is great, if it works but Ubuntu is using new technology that simply is not mature. Using a poor graphics stack in an LTS release was a bad decision, not addressing the issue afterwords is even worse. Has anyone else seen the huge number of locked threads in the Testimonials section on the Ubuntu forums? Just imagine how many others are unhappy but never post about it. Now try and imagine what Dell had to deal with....
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby mmesantos1 on Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:32 pm

exploder wrote:
Good article exploder, sad for Linux but Ubuntu is not helping. :(


Too many people think that Ubuntu is Linux and it has become a poor representation. I hate seeing Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that plastered all over Linux sites when I know how crappy the hardware support is and they NEVER fix anything in their releases. I am sure that I am not the only one that is fed up with hoping that the next release will solve their hardware problems, because it won't.... Who dreams up the goals for Ubuntu releases? Shouldn't the first goal be that the darn thing runs on the average computer users hardware? Let's face it Ubuntu 10.04 has issues with Intel, ATI and NVidea graphics and this is an LTS release?

Could application updates make the system any worse than it is to start with? Come on, black screens at start up, compiz not enabling, are common problems we are seeing over and over again. Ubuntu can come up with a new software center but they can't make the system run right so people can use it! All the pretty little apps are not getting the system running. Would a Windows user want to re-install Windows every six months to be up to date on applications? Of course they wouldn't, so why would they switch to Ubuntu?

Ubuntu is fine if you want to spend all your time trying to work around all of the bugs and regressions but new users are not going to go to these lengths. PCLinuxOS 2010 KDE uses the approach better suited for getting people to choose Linux. If Ubuntu or anyone else for that matter used the same approach with a Debian base then Linux could advance in the main stream market.


You are right, Ubuntu has become known to most people as Linux, being the most popular distro or well known has placed it in the position of being Linux to most new users coming from Windows. So this is bad when they do not try and fix the issue's, they seem more concerned about getting the next release out than fixing past issues or even issues to come on new releases since the seem to carry over to the new release. All I can say is that I hope the Mint Debian does well. :wink:
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby exploder on Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:38 pm

All I can say is that I hope the Mint Debian does well. :wink:


I am hoping the same.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby altair4 on Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:05 pm

Although I do not hold PCLinuxOS in as high a regard as you do, I find myself in total agreement with your assessment of Ubuntu.

It's really very sad.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby hinto on Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:14 pm

As I recall, the Linux PCs cost the same (or more) than the Windows PCs. I think that contributed.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby exploder on Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:18 pm

Although I do not hold PCLinuxOS in as high a regard as you do,


I like the way they take care of problems. Someone will post a problem and an updated package soon follows. When I look in Launchpad for Ubuntu I see problems with huge numbers of comments and no solution is ever produced. Solutions exist for a large number of bugs in Ubuntu but they never make it into the main repos, this qualifies as abandon-ware to me. I see an endless stream of articles that promote Ubuntu but where is the support?
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby exploder on Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:25 pm

As I recall, the Linux PCs cost the same (or more) than the Windows PCs. I think that contributed.
-Hinto


Why would cost be a factor if the product is supposed to be better? If the cost is equal wouldn't you base your purchase on which is the better product? I have always thought it was a bad idea to sell cheap Linux PCs, a computer built with good hardware and a solid Linux distribution would sell.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby mintnoob on Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:23 pm

So what does this mean for Mint?
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby hinto on Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:38 pm

exploder wrote:
As I recall, the Linux PCs cost the same (or more) than the Windows PCs. I think that contributed.
-Hinto


Why would cost be a factor if the product is supposed to be better? If the cost is equal wouldn't you base your purchase on which is the better product? I have always thought it was a bad idea to sell cheap Linux PCs, a computer built with good hardware and a solid Linux distribution would sell.

Cost is always a factor. Look at how IE ate Netscape's lunch when they (MS) gave away IE 3. MS barely had market share a the time.
Look at how LAMP transformed, the IT industry... And finally looks at Apple. They always lagged behind PCs sales. One reason was closed architecture. Another reason was cost. The funny thing now is that iPods (and the Apple brand) are driving Mac computer sales.

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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby exploder on Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:03 pm

I am trying to see things from a manufacturers point of view and and end users. Lets say I sell you a computer with NVidea graphics and Ubuntu pre-installed, everything works reasonably well when you purchase the computer. Some time has passed and you want all of the newer versions of the applications you have been using, there is one problem though, Ubuntu does not provide the updated apps in the main repo. Well, you figure that's alright, there is always the new release of Ubuntu. Well, no because your NVidea graphics doesn't work with the new release... How is Dell or anyone else supposed to support this? I just don't picture the average user editing their configuration files to get their graphics card working and they shouldn't have to.

Most people, myself included, expect a new release to be somehow better than the last. At the very least we expect reasonably current hardware to work at least as good as it did in the last release. These are not unrealistic expectations. Ubuntu does not release when it's ready, they release on time regardless of how buggy the software is. All of the pretty new apps and all of the news stories will not make Ubuntu run on anyone's hardware, period. Even when fixes are found they never make it into the main repos.

Dell can not realistically provide support for Ubuntu based systems because Canonical does not support their releases the way they should. Cost is not where the problems lie, it's support.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby Carl on Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:35 pm

exploder wrote:Dell can not realistically provide support for Ubuntu based systems because Canonical does not support their releases the way they should. Cost is not where the problems lie, it's support.


Spot on

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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby BubbaBlues on Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:10 pm

Calm down, let's all take a deep breath. It with the good air....out with the bad. There. :roll:

I'm sure all of this is also going through Clem's mind as well. I'm also sure that he'll do whatever is necessary to keep up the fine standards
of Mint. You mention PCLOS. To me PCLOS and Linux Mint are the two best distros available. (but that's just my oppinion) The reason is because Texstar and Clem both care deeply about the quality of their products. I choose Mint simply because I like the convenience of .deb packaging over
rpm's. But one thing they both have in common is, they both just work out of the box. I ain't worried. 8)
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby exploder on Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:08 pm

You mention PCLOS. To me PCLOS and Linux Mint are the two best distros available. (but that's just my oppinion) The reason is because Texstar and Clem both care deeply about the quality of their products.


I agree with you completely. :) Clem greatly improves the usability of Gnome and makes sure all of the Mint releases are user friendly. Texstar has a solid reputation as a perfectionist and with good reason. My concerns are with the Ubuntu base and all of the unresolved regressions we see release after release. Dell dropping Ubuntu is a hard blow to those of us that have been waiting to see Linux systems the common place. Ubuntu is the distro you see constantly in the press and they blew one of the best opportunities of all time to take Linux to the general public...

Ubuntu started out pretty good and for a while was better with every new release until 8.04. Ubuntu has not been the same since 8.04, after that they seem to be trying to be like Fedora only Fedora seems to have the knack for introducing new technology. Mint has been better and more refined with every new release with the exception of the Ubuntu base. The Mint menu is the best menu for gnome and many distributions are now adding it to their repositories. Fedora and PCLinuxOS both have the Mint menu in their repos and OpenSuse was seriously looking at the menu too. I saw a distribution today that was using mintInstall, it too was Ubuntu based. The Mint tools are very good.

The poll on our own forum demonstrates that people want application updates but the Ubuntu base is not providing for that. There has been a overwhelming response to us having a Debian based edition of Mint, this suggests that we have outgrown the Ubuntu base and need to do things differently. We have lost many forum members to other distributions because of the regressions in the Ubuntu base. The last thing I want to see is Mint going down the tubes with Ubuntu.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby mick55 on Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:09 pm

exploder wrote:The last thing I want to see is Mint going down the tubes with Ubuntu.


+1
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.

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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby BubbaBlues on Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:33 pm

Ubuntu? We don't need no stinking Ubuntu! :D I hear ya. Mint has always improved on what Ubuntu had and has always been better but you can only do so much with what you have to work with. Maybe it's time to stop cleaning up Ubuntu's messes. Actually I'm a Mint KDE man, but don't even get me started on Kubuntu. :roll:
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby mmesantos1 on Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:38 pm

BubbaBlues wrote:Ubuntu? We don't need no stinking Ubuntu! :D I hear ya. Mint has always improved on what Ubuntu had and has always been better but you can only do so much with what you have to work with. Maybe it's time to stop cleaning up Ubuntu's messes. Actually I'm a Mint KDE man, but don't even get me started on Kubuntu. :roll:


Kubuntu= Train-wreck! :wink:
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