The house of cards is starting to fall.

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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby alpha1 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:57 am

bobcollard wrote:
alpha1 wrote:Mepis 8 as well as 8.5 has issues opening my NTFS drives (HArd disk as well as removable).

Go here for help;
http://mepislovers.org/forums/index.php

Thanks but my post was actually directed towards ppl who claim that Mepis can work out of box like Ubuntu.
It does not.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby randomizer on Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:48 am

alpha1 wrote:Thanks but my post was actually directed towards ppl who claim that Mepis can work out of box like Ubuntu.
It does not.

It does not... for you. Does Ubuntu work out of the box for everyone? Of course not.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby libssd on Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:33 pm

One of the problems that Ubuntu is trying to solve is that of name recognition. Not comprehensive, but I derived this list from http://www.pendrivelinux.com/universal- ... -as-1-2-3/

  • Updated Runt Linux 5.0
  • Feather Linux 0.7.5
  • Debian Live 5.0.5
  • Peppermint Linux OS
  • EasyPeasy 1.6 (NetBook Distro)
  • KNOPPIX V6.2.1
  • RIP Linux 10.x
  • Dr.Web Live CD Scanner 5.03
  • Lucid Puppy 5.0.1
  • BackTrack 3 and 4
  • YlmF OS V3.0
  • Ubuntu 9.10/10.04 Desktop i386/amd64
  • Xubuntu 9.10/10.04 Desktop i386/amd64
  • Kubuntu 9.10/10.04 Desktop i386/amd64
  • Lubuntu 10.04
  • Ubuntu NetBook Remix 10.04
  • Ubuntu Rescue Remix Revision 1
  • Ubuntu Server 9.10/10.04 32bit/64bit Installer
  • Ubuntu Mini Remix 10.04
  • Linux Mint 9
  • Crunchbang 9.04
  • gOS 3.1 gadgets
  • Ultimate Boot CD V5.01
  • Gentoo 10.1
  • xPUD 0.9.2
  • Simply MEPIS 8.0.15
  • EEEBuntu 3.0 (Netbook Distro)
  • DSL (Damn Small Linux) 4.4.9
  • Puppy Linux 4.3.1
  • Kiwi Linux 9.04
  • SLAX 6.1.2
  • SliTaZ
  • Jolicloud (NetBook Distro)
  • PLoP Linux 4.0.5 (a minimalist Linux
And we wonder why noobs, especially from the Windows world, think Linux is complicated. Pogo was right:

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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby libssd on Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:47 pm

Robin wrote:I absolutely loved Ubuntu (and Mint!) and never had a technical issue (although I've always objected to the inclusion of beta software in a distro that bills itself as "beginner-friendly") until Lucid. And I looked forward very much to Lucid for two reasons:

1. It's a LTS version so I could share it with others knowing it will be supported for a good long while, and

2. For the first time an Ubuntu release was being based on Debian Testing instead of Debian Unstable. I hoped that it would mean "more stable, less prone to breakage" than the usual non-LTS releases.

Okay, so maybe number two describes unrealistic expectations, but "everyone knows," I think, that Debian Testing is more stable than Debian Unstable, right? Perhaps I should have known that even Lenny in Canonical's hands could become outright volatile and crash-prone.

Updates killed my Xubuntu 10.04, which for the first time included PulseAudio (why? No default program in Xubuntu 10.04 depends on it), which I instantly removed first thing, and Plymouth (trouble free on my machine, but I've read that it causes video problems on alot of common hardware - so why use it in a LTS release? Is super-fast boot time really important enough to cripple people's video?).

It's some of their policies that don't make any sense to me, but Ubuntu remains a great distro IF people generally stick to these two rules, which I would recommend to anyone new to Linux:

Ubuntu/Mint users should -

1. - Stay (at least) one release behind the current release, since it's almost never safe and stable at release time. Months later, it'll be alot safer and more reliable.

2. - Set up the Update Manager to accept only security updates and ignore the "recommended" updates that are known to b0rk a perfectly good working system.

Following one or both of those "rules" would probably make Ubuntu safe and fun to use. Of course the Mint team is able to "catch" alot of the junk coming at their users from upstream, but when a release is new, that flotsam from upstream is coming down quickly, furiously, and in large quantities!

-Robin

Well said, Robin. Over and over, I ask people, "If you are having new problems with Ubuntu 10.04 or Mint 9 that you didn't have with an earlier release, why are don't you revert?"

However, I would disagree with you about inclusion of "beta" (unless specifically labeled as such) software with Ubuntu releases. As soon as a new release is out, Canonical offers a new development release for testing. Having worked with end users for decades, I can safely say that relatively few people want to take the time to really test things. Most people wait until the test period is over, start using the new release, and in the much wider world of real users with a huge variety of hardware, discover all sorts of problems that were not revealed by the testers. That's the nature of software. If you absolutely, positively can't stand surprises, always stay one release behind. MS-DOS 3.x is probably the most stable OS around because it hasn't been updated this century.

To your list of suggestions, I would add: Make a fresh ISO backup image (using software that you KNOW can restore) before installing any new release, or major incremental upgrade. The time you take to burn an ISO to a DVD is far less than the time you will spend trying to figure out how to get your system again running effectively if something unexpected happens.

PS: You can't be as young as your avatar photo!
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby Robin on Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:10 pm

libssd wrote:
However, I would disagree with you about inclusion of "beta" (unless specifically labeled as such) software with Ubuntu releases. As soon as a new release is out, Canonical offers a new development release for testing. <snipped for brevity> Most people wait until the test period is over, start using the new release, and in the much wider world of real users with a huge variety of hardware, discover all sorts of problems that were not revealed by the testers. That's the nature of software.


True enough. That's yet another good reason for most folks to stay one release behind the current one! Using the newest release, right after it has been released, is almost like testing, since there are really so few testers who know how to test and how to report results and all that. As for beta software being included in a "ready" release, take PulseAudio for example. Or Grub2. Both were specifically labeled as beta yet found their way into a "newbie-friendly" distro. Effectively making newbies unwitting beta testers (who don't know how to test beta software nor how to report bugs, etc). That has been a long-standing gripe of mine with Ubuntu, but I grant that it's prob'ly just a matter of opinion.

libssd wrote:PS: You can't be as young as your avatar photo!


I stopped growing at age 11. I have not grown an inch or gained a pound in nearly 7 years since. Some of the treatments are risky and controversial and my parents always refused them. Now that I will soon have a choice, I too will refuse "treatment." But I'm not complaining! My friends are all jealous. My dance class mates tell me that I'm "too adorable to get in trouble" when I deserve to. I get away with childlike mischief, and I get "child" discounts at movies and restaurants. It ain't so bad being "trapped in an 11-year-old's body," so to speak. And the disadvantages, most of the time, are actually more funny than bothersome. Like not being tall enough to ride the cool rides, or having the police pull me over because they got reports of "a small child driving a car," and not being taken seriously by adults when I think I should be. There are days when I'd rather be "smokin' hot sexy" instead of "cute and adorable," but I'm too busy with school (college too - I'm dual-enrolled), a part-time job, and a very busy music and dance rehearsal schedule to really care.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby bobcollard on Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:21 pm

Robin wrote:
libssd wrote: Most people wait until the test period is over, start using the new release, and in the much wider world of real users with a huge variety of hardware, discover all sorts of problems that were not revealed by the testers. That's the nature of software.


I stopped growing at age 11.

The problem with depending on testers is that none of them have the average person's equipment. Most are running heavy duty machines designed for Workstations. Not defending Ubuntu there, just stating facts.

Let me guess, Turner's Syndrome?
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby libssd on Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:10 pm

Robin, people like you make me feel old. :roll:

I knew the tables had turned when I started asking my daughter how she had done some things in HTML (which I had introduced her to at age 14). There's an old joke about determining how old someone is by asking which came first: first program or first kiss. In my case, my first program was way down the line, at about age 28.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby Robin on Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:12 pm

Not Turner's syndrome. Only girls have that. I'm a boy. It's genetic, "constitutional growth delay," and for alot of boys it's a big issue psychologically and socially. But I've always just rolled with it. I have even learned to enjoy it. The "genetic counseling" and some of the suggested treatments are fraught with mysterious names and possible side effects - left untreated, I'll just be little and "cute" and have a sort of extended childhood, free of all the social pressures that make my friends crazy. I don't compare myself to other boys, nor do I feel inadequate or short-changed (I love that pun) by life. I always hear people talk about how precious childhood is, and the whole world seems to want to to hold onto it for as long as possible. I get to do so naturally, and hopefully when my body eventually starts to catch up with my mind, I'll be better prepared for it than my peers.

-Robin
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby linuxviolin on Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:44 pm

libssd wrote:MS-DOS 3.x is probably the most stable OS around because it hasn't been updated this century.

"Do you know which were the OS I was most happy with? MS-DOS 5.01, DR DOS 6.0." :roll:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby alpha1 on Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:55 am

randomizer wrote:
alpha1 wrote:Thanks but my post was actually directed towards ppl who claim that Mepis can work out of box like Ubuntu.
It does not.

It does not... for you. Does Ubuntu work out of the box for everyone? Of course not.

Yes, but what about something as basic and simple as auto mounting NTFS partitions?

Thats sure is a n00b killer.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby bobcollard on Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:29 am

Sorry about the Gender mistake, Robin is used in both. Are you expecting a growth spurt or just aging to catch up with you, (Curious) Either way your thoughts about Ubuntu are right on the money and until people realize the harm it is doing it will continue. Thanks for sharing your condition with us.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby bobcollard on Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:33 am

alpha1 wrote:
randomizer wrote:
alpha1 wrote:Thanks but my post was actually directed towards ppl who claim that Mepis can work out of box like Ubuntu.
It does not.

It does not... for you. Does Ubuntu work out of the box for everyone? Of course not.

Yes, but what about something as basic and simple as auto mounting NTFS partitions?

Thats sure is a n00b killer.

Actually automounting any external drive including Fat 32 or other partition is not one of Linux's better traits. I have to Mount my 250GB USB every time I startup or reboot. It's for backup and extended data saving formated Fat 32.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby randomizer on Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:07 am

alpha1 wrote:Yes, but what about something as basic and simple as auto mounting NTFS partitions?

Thats sure is a n00b killer.

You never mentioned anything about n00bs before. You were talking about "working out of the box." If auto-mounting is intentionally left out, then it's still working out of the box as far as the developers intended it. But as I don't use Mepis I have no idea whether it's supposed to automount or not. I've not run into any GNOME- or KDE-based distro that didn't. Xfce doesn't automount by default.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby Robin on Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:20 am

bobcollard wrote:Sorry about the Gender mistake, Robin is used in both. Are you expecting a growth spurt or just aging to catch up with you, (Curious)

No problem, I get mistaken for a girl all the time. It doesn't really help that I'm tiny, have shoulder-length hair, and one of those names that goes either way (like Pat, Chris, etc). The doctors tell me that I'll just start growing again eventually on my own if I choose not to have the "hurry-it-up" treatments, but the longer it is before I start growing again, the smaller I'll be when it's over. Not really an issue for me.
bobcollard wrote: Either way your thoughts about Ubuntu are right on the money and until people realize the harm it is doing it will continue.

It's really only "harmful" for people who just blindly install the latest version, accept all of the updates and don't take time to test things like sound, connectivity, printer function, etc along the way. In a distro that bills itself as "beginner friendly," they should be able to blindly install, accept all updates and go, as foolhardy as that sounds to the rest of us. A newbie will do what s/he always did in Windows or Mac, the only thing s/he knows to do.

Y'know, sometimes updates actually fix stuff instead of breaking it, lol. So I would tell a newbie, "If everything works in a fresh install, accept only security updates. If a couple of things don't work in a fresh install, take all the updates and see if that fixes things." If people take their time and make sure things work as they go (play a song to make sure the sound works, scan a picture, print a document, open the browser and connect, etc) it'd be easier. I can't really blame a newbie for doing the only thing they know to do, but when we introduce people to Linux (especially non-geeky people like me) we should encourage them to test everything as they go.

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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby libssd on Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:28 am

bobcollard wrote:Actually automounting any external drive including Fat 32 or other partition is not one of Linux's better traits. I have to Mount my 250GB USB every time I startup or reboot. It's for backup and extended data saving formated Fat 32.

It's not just Linux. I have a firewire 1tb WD external drive attached to my iMac, and sometimes it shows up automatically, sometimes it doesn't. I generally don't notice the problem until Time Machine complains it hasn't been able to do a backup for some time. Apple's disk utility can't find it; I have to force the issue by unplugging/replugging the drive.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby libssd on Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:47 am

Robin wrote:Not Turner's syndrome. Only girls have that. I'm a boy. It's genetic, "constitutional growth delay," and for a lot of boys it's a big issue psychologically and socially. But I've always just rolled with it. I have even learned to enjoy it. The "genetic counseling" and some of the suggested treatments are fraught with mysterious names and possible side effects - left untreated, I'll just be little and "cute" and have a sort of extended childhood, free of all the social pressures that make my friends crazy....

I'm another one who was confused by the ambiguous first name.

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Author Harry Turtledove has written a SF/alternate history series in which earth is invaded by 4-foot tall bipedal lizards who are interested in sex for only a few days each year, and who consider human beings' 24x7 interest in sex (and all that entails in the way society is organized) to be completely insane.

Given lemons, it sounds like you are doing a good job of making lemonade -- enjoy the lack of social pressures that your "extended childhood" is giving you.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby MALsPa on Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:18 am

Robin wrote:It's really only "harmful" for people who just blindly install the latest version, accept all of the updates and don't take time to test things like sound, connectivity, printer function, etc along the way. In a distro that bills itself as "beginner friendly," they should be able to blindly install, accept all updates and go, as foolhardy as that sounds to the rest of us. A newbie will do what s/he always did in Windows or Mac, the only thing s/he knows to do.

Y'know, sometimes updates actually fix stuff instead of breaking it, lol. So I would tell a newbie, "If everything works in a fresh install, accept only security updates. If a couple of things don't work in a fresh install, take all the updates and see if that fixes things." If people take their time and make sure things work as they go (play a song to make sure the sound works, scan a picture, print a document, open the browser and connect, etc) it'd be easier. I can't really blame a newbie for doing the only thing they know to do, but when we introduce people to Linux (especially non-geeky people like me) we should encourage them to test everything as they go.


Reminds me of my Windows days. I never trusted the updates from Microsoft and could never feel comfortable with setting up my computer to update automatically. I was always examining the available updates and picking and choosing which ones I thought I really needed. That habit carried over to Linux when I was a Linux newbie. I wonder if many other Linux newbies are the same way, but I'm sure that most people don't concern themselves with that sort of thing in either Windows or Linux.

With Mepis and Debian Stable, I've felt comfortable with bringing in any updates that come down the pipe. With Mint LTS and Ubuntu LTS, I've been more cautious, like I was with Windows. Your advice is probably good advice.

This time around, with Mint Isadora and Ubuntu Lucid, I've decided to approach things as I would with Debian Stable -- just bring in all the updates, see what happens over the course of the LTS lifespans. But since I multi-boot, and keep current back-ups (usually), this approach might not be as fool-hardy as it sounds. If I bork Mint or Ubuntu, I've got a couple other distros to boot into. But I want to see for myself how thing turn out.
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby dawgdoc on Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:17 pm

Robin wrote:It's really only "harmful" for people who just blindly install the latest version, accept all of the updates and don't take time to test things like sound, connectivity, printer function, etc along the way. In a distro that bills itself as "beginner friendly," they should be able to blindly install, accept all updates and go, as foolhardy as that sounds to the rest of us. A newbie will do what s/he always did in Windows or Mac, the only thing s/he knows to do.

Y'know, sometimes updates actually fix stuff instead of breaking it, lol. So I would tell a newbie, "If everything works in a fresh install, accept only security updates. If a couple of things don't work in a fresh install, take all the updates and see if that fixes things." If people take their time and make sure things work as they go...

You say so much. Before ever trying Linux I was one of the cautious and did not apply Windows updates that did not relate to a program I did not use. Since switching to Mint in Dec '08 I have continued the cautious trend. I would apply all level 1 & 2 updates and only apply level three updates if I had something which was not working as smoothly as it should. Until recently I did wonder which were bug fixes, new features, or which were security updates. So now I check the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter for security updates, and apply those. I have never done an update all from Update Manager nor a sudo apt-get upgrade. So, I agree with Robin, and expresses it so well.

It would seem that MALsPa initially felt the same and has now become less risk averse :) (if you don't consider the backups and multi-boot :D )
MALsPa wrote:Reminds me of my Windows days. I never trusted the updates from Microsoft and could never feel comfortable with setting up my computer to update...

This time around, with Mint Isadora and Ubuntu Lucid, I've decided to approach things as I would with Debian Stable -- just bring in all the updates, see what happens
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby dawgdoc on Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:26 pm

Author Harry Turtledove has written a SF/alternate history series in which earth is invaded by 4-foot tall bipedal lizards

I read 4 or 5 of the books in that series. In fact I have read a number of his books, alternate history and otherwise. Also some he published as H.N. Turteltaub and Eric G. Iverson
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Re: The house of cards is starting to fall.

Postby vincent on Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:23 pm

dawgdoc wrote:So now I check the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter for security updates, and apply those.


I think you're checking the wrong place...Ubuntu places its security advisories here (and there are a lot of them too): http://www.ubuntu.com/usn
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