Linux is Not Windows

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donec
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by donec »

Maybe some people out there don't remember when Windows was new. But some of us do and we remember the law suits about Look and feel we also remember where the look of Windows comes from. When Xerox showed off it's look and feel others thought it was a good look and feel so they copied it and modified it. There was nothing else but command line. Now we have many options and the ability to customize that goes way beyond that of the Windows look and feel or the Apple look and feel.

People that want their distro to be like Windows or Apple can do so. While others can create a much different look with Linux. With this said I say that if a distro wants to draw people from Windows then the default look that the Windows user is comfortable with would be a good idea. However I don't know uf a single distro that has made it a goal to draw Windows users to their distro. They want more users but they don't care where they come from. Most if not all the distros I have tried have shown they have a common goal with each other and that is to make their distro intuitive and easy to use.

In summery Linux is not Windows as Windows can not do what Linux can do even though in some areas they want to. In Linux a user can make their distro look and feel like Windows they can even run in root and run wine applications that access the web and are full of security holes making their distro just as unsecured as Windows. This is because Linux offers choice while Windows does not.
Don
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msuggs

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by msuggs »

floordog wrote:Now I have to try Mint. Is there a LIVE CD for Mint?
The release CD is a live CD just like Ubuntu's

Get it here - http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

I'd try the Main Edition (revision 1) first :)
cnzzhe

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by cnzzhe »

Yes!the linux is for yearns for the freedom and the cooperation peoples!
awshidahak

Re:

Post by awshidahak »

jbaerbock wrote:Yeah I always did play with legos a lot growing up :D.
but how did you cope with there being no car inside the box. :)
Fred

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Fred »

A couple thread posts that will give you an idea of my opinions... again. :-)

http://www.linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopi ... ls#p116201

http://www.linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopi ... st#p116514

Fred
MatchStickMen

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by MatchStickMen »

There is a lot of truth to this post. I just like learning something new. I have been using Linux for a couple of years and have tried out several distros. My first computer was the Original Mac 128K
Fred

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Fred »

justinforasec wrote:
... it's this kind of attitude that I see all the time that will keep Linux from realizing it's full potential.
You see, this is where the culture clash arises. It is the difference between how you would define "Linux's full potential" and how I would define it.

To me, Linux becoming a cheaper, safer, dumbed down, main stream, commercially competitive, mass market, clone of Windows or Mac is an undesirable goal and not something Linux should aspire to. Shear numbers of users should not be a standard or measure of success. Technological progress and technical excellence should be the goal, therefore "full potential" will never be reached. Each iteration of a kernel, lib, program, or distro being better than the last is success in the making, but never fulfilled. :-)

Fred
Fred

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Fred »

And before some smart ass sugests that I check the MD5, I do that immediately after I download files.
You might want to look at my post in the thread below. I am not saying this is your only problem or even a problem. But if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and leaves foot prints like a duck, it isn't a bad idea to at least consider the possibility that a duck is around somewhere. :-)

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... ll#p135443

Hint: Sometimes, burning to a dvd instead of a cd makes all the difference. It's not the place to go into all the reasons why this could be true.

Just an idea from an "a double s". The smart part is highly questionable at best. :-)

Fred
badmotor

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by badmotor »

Geez - that is just totally out of the ordinary stuff. I've never seen a post like yours. I'm sure some more people will pipe up with suggestions shortly. Incidentally, I have used all those distros you mentioned, and many more and Linux Mint has been the most stable of them all.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.
Fred

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Fred »

ex-windows,

As far as your virus problem goes, there could be multiple possibilities. First off, anyone that promised you, no malware, didn't know what they were talking about. It is unlikely, and compared to Windows it is almost non-existent. But it is possible, just not likely. Viruses, even less so.

Do you dual boot with Windows? If so, do you use one of those super wizz bang drivers that allows Windows to access your Linux partitions? If so, you probably don't own your box anymore. Whoever does is just kind enough to let you use it once in a while.

The same as above applies if you insist on running in root to do ordinary, day-to-day tasks.

Do you use Wine? This is another avenue to get to Firefox, though it is not likely to affect other native Linux programs.

Do you use the "no script" extension in Firefox? If not I strongly recommend it.

What about other extensions? Do you know where they come from? Are they from trusted sources? Extensions are a great avenue for malware to get into Firefox. Firefox problems can't do much to damage the system, but they can be very aggravating.

What about .desktop files? Do you make a habit of downloading files to your desktop and opening them from there? This too is an avenue for malware. Not much of this has been seen yet, but there is a venerability there and I expect to see more of it as Linux becomes more popular. You should be especially wary of this if you download stuff from dodge sites.

The bottom line is that compared to Windows, Linux is like Fort Knox. But that doesn't mean that you can't get in trouble. It isn't fool proof. An old saying comes to mind, "Anything one man can do, another can undo."

Fred
mipcar

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by mipcar »

I installed Linux on an old machine with not much ram to get me out of trouble whilst my pc has been away with hardware problem. I had never even looked at Linux before.
It has worked almost faultlessly for me right from install, within 30 mins I was getting my e-mail and using the browser. I was fortunate in that it found my USB wireless link to my modem, things might not have gone so well otherwise.

I like its fast load and shutdown, the way it updates, the way it just opened the right program to view things. It's been very stable,only one wobbly which a reboot fixed, not like my XP.

I don't like the way it handles devices some I just cannot get to work, bash commands given in the forum often help but sometimes don't do anything.. More knowledge and study on my part would fix that. I don't like Linux version of MSN messenger but overall I could live with a Linux machine full time if I needed to.

Mychael
mipcar

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by mipcar »

Just got my pc working again last night.
Geez, I'd forgotten just how long it took to set the whole thing up and get it re-configured to how I like it. (XP)

Then it took so long to boot I thought it was still broken.

I think I could live with Linux as my sole O/S once I teach myself a bit more stuff.

Mychael
Plain_jim

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Plain_jim »

Fred wrote:...

What about .desktop files? Do you make a habit of downloading files to your desktop and opening them from there? This too is an avenue for malware. Not much of this has been seen yet, but there is a venerability there and I expect to see more of it as Linux becomes more popular. You should be especially wary of this if you download stuff from dodge sites...
OK, I'll bite. I usually download to a ~/Download folder I created in my home directory. What's the deal with downloading to the desktop, and what's a better way to do it?
Fred

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Fred »

Plain_jim,

I think the easiest way to explain it would be to refer you to a couple urls. The short version is the .desktop executable extension. One of the things that Microsoft did that killed their securiety was create the .exe extension. Anything that has that extension will try to execute by default. Linux/Unix always maintained a set of file permissions, including an execution bit. Only root could change the settings. This prevented files from being downloaded and executed by a user. The GUI desktop makers, mainly Gnome and KDE but it spread to others, decided to make the same mistake that had proven so disastrous to Microsoft, for sake of so-called usability. Files downloaded to the desktop will get a .desktop extension which enables them to be executed by the user. Even though by default they can only run as a user and not root they can do a lot of damage to the users files and possibly set up a situation where they could acquire root privileges. This is big hole in Linux securiety that to date hasn't been exploited much. Both Gnome and KDE have "discovered" this venerability and are working to mitigate the issues involved. KDE 4 has taken some steps in this direction.

Your best bet is to download to a directory other than the desktop folder. Once I have my desktop set like I want it I set the ownership of the desktop folder and the autostart folder to root and read only so you are forced to save it somewhere else and nothing can get in the autostart file that I don't want there. This helps but doesn't completely solve the problem.

http://lwn.net/Articles/178409/

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/foobar/6229

Fred
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Zwopper »

Fred wrote:Once I have my desktop set like I want it I set the ownership of the desktop folder and the autostart folder to root and read only so you are forced to save it somewhere else and nothing can get in the autostart file that I don't want there. This helps but doesn't completely solve the problem.

http://lwn.net/Articles/178409/

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/foobar/6229

Fred
Fred,
Very smart(as usual), I have done the changes myself already, but for a novice user, or someone who doesn't want to fiddle around too much this could be made part of a security feature(together with mintNanny and Gufw for instance), that one could engage, like you said above, when the setup feels ready, perhaps integrated in mintAssistant so that the end user becomes aware of it right after first boot...
Interestingly enough XFCE seems to have advantages in this area as well!!! :D
Last edited by Zwopper on Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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nick
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by nick »

Hi
Secondly the stability is shocking.
I must agree with Fred, I have been running Linux since 1998, (I have never used windows).

During this time I can count the number of crashes on one hand, that's correct, propably less than 10 in 10 years, I do not go out my way to choose my hardware.

Three years ago I installed Suse on my 78 year old sisters computer, she has asked ONE question since (and it has never crashed), nor have any of the other computers I have installed it on
Been used to windows, i was able to find a way and remove (most of it anyway) the virus.
I would like to hear what alleged "virus" it was and how you uninstalled it.

Take notice of Freds posts-ducks

BTW Fred there might be somebody older than you on here :D i started on PDP 11 using RT11 in 1973 when we stopped using the punched card system

Funny thing it had a "windowing sytem" :D waaaay before windows

Nick
Plain_jim

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Plain_jim »

Fred wrote:Plain_jim,

I think the easiest way to explain it would be to refer you to a couple urls...
M'kay. Time to do some homework. Mucho grats.

EDIT: Okay, I read the articles, and I did a quick test; I took an *.odt file, and renamed it to *.odt.desktop; the icon obediently changed to a desktop icon. So I copied it to the desktop... where the ".desktop" file extension was visible (contrary to the second article, which said the extension would not appear).
-Is the fact that I could still see the .desktop extension an improvement in Gnu, or just evidence that I don't know what I'm doing (trust me, I can provide plenty of THAT!);
-I've gotten the message that I don't have to practice "safe computing" with Linux. Are these ".desktop" files the primary source of Linux vulnerability, or are there others? (And I'm perfectly happy to go look at a url; I did a quick search, but most of the stuff I find for Linux vulnerabilities either requires root access, or consists of articles sniggering at Redmond.)
AK Dave

Re: Linux is worse then windows for stability.

Post by AK Dave »

ex-windows wrote:When i started using linux i was promised that linux was more stable and was resistant to viruses.
It is.
On monday 9-3-2009 i got a nice little virus on my linux mint 6 computer. What it does is it opens up thousands of windows in firefox. You cannot close firefox faster then it can reopen it. And it opens up about 1000 copies of firefox with numerous firefox tabs been opened every second.
I've seen it. Its a piece of javascript malware. You got it because you visited some website like 10chan.org and didn't have any basic firefox protections up. This was totally preventable.

And, for that matter, easily fixed.

I hit the same thing myself last weekend after I installed Jaunty but hadn't tweaked my firefox. A quick hit to the command line with 'killall firefox' and then I noted that I had an errant java process eating 30% of my CPU time. Killed it too, restarted firefox without re-launching the old websites, and everything was good.

You didn't encounter a virus. You encountered malicious javascript code.
lexon

Re: Linux is worse then windows for stability.

Post by lexon »

ex-windows wrote:When i started using linux i was promised that linux was more stable and was resistant to viruses.
Well thats not true.
On monday 9-3-2009 i got a nice little virus on my linux mint 6 computer. What it does is it opens up thousands of windows in firefox. You cannot close firefox faster then it can reopen it. And it opens up about 1000 copies of firefox with numerous firefox tabs been opened every second.
As it steals the mouse focus, it is impossible to jump to another workstation to fix the problem. When you jump to another workstation, you are immediatley grabbed back by the firefox/virus. I have tools on the bar so that i can shut down applications and processes quickly, yet as the mouse focus is continually stolen, it is impossible to shut down the virus.
I had some thing that sounds the same. I thought it was a virus. Here is what I found out.

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=21828

There are 12 History items kept by default in RichResults. I went somewhere I should not have. Many users are not aware of this issue.

I have beeen using Linux for five years with very few issues.

lexon
Fred

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Fred »

@ Az4x4gNu,

I can certainly concur with your observations Sir.


@ ex-windows

Please re-read A K Dave's and nick's posts. I think that between the two of them, they have hit your problems dead on the money. :-)


@ nick

I wish I could say I never heard of a PDP 11, but the 11 was my first real introduction to computers. I wore out a lot of switches. :-)

I don't mind in the least being younger than you. In fact, it wouldn't bother me if I was 25 and almost everybody was older. :-) However, as I said in another thread somewhere, 1938 was a red letter year for me. By-the-way, I may be catching up with you, as I just had another birthday in early April.

Enjoy life, it is too short to do otherwise. :-)


@ Plain_jim

Well... Let's keep this in perspective. Compared to Windows, at this point in time, for a desktop system on a dhcp connection, Linux is about as safe as it gets. This is not to say that it is not possible to get in trouble by doing dumb things like running in root. You can find ways to give your system away if you work at it, but if you run sane port rules and leave root for essential tasks only, you have little to fear at this point in time. The .desktop extension is probably the biggest hole in the desktop that I am aware of. Having said that, it has not been exploited enough, so far, to get in a lather over. It has the "potential" to be a problem in the future, especially for the user's data, but isn't now.

Fred
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