Linux is Not Windows

Chat about Linux in general

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sat May 22, 2010 9:31 pm

scorp123 wrote: Mark Shuttleworth has to make money at some point I guess? Whatever. He is not Torvalds or Stallman, not Bruce Perens or Alan Cox, not Greg Kroah-Hartmann, not Ted T'so, not Andrew Morton,


Again, irrelevant. His motives do not refute my claim that "linux" in the form of Ubuntu and Mint is trying to compete with the windows market. Isnt he already a billionaire though?

scorp123 wrote: And he can do whatever he wishes with Canonical and Ubuntu (within the boundaries of the GPL of course), but he cannot dictate the others what to do or not to do with Linux, Ubuntu and Canonical cannot even remotely dictate the direction Linux will go or not go. So whatever Canonical does with Ubuntu, whether or not they succeed at putting it on "every PC" has no influence whatsoever.


The Linux Kernel? That isnt what I was talking about.

Still, from what I understand the people who were behind the open source projects and Linux were significantly less individualistic compared to the OP. They were not about being a niche crew of elite computer users who were using a system you have to hack to get working just because they could. They were about a philosophy of copy-left, and I am assuming they wanted their ideas to spread and to permeate society rather than appeal only to a niche crew of hackers and programmers....even if that is what they initially got for their base of support, which is fortunate in SOME ways.

Marketing to the masses is not only about profit and greed. Maybe its about spreading a certain set of values and conditions for humanity as well.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby FedoraRefugee on Sat May 22, 2010 10:49 pm

alrighty then... :roll:

That was a lot of arguing but yet you really didn't say much. Only that everything that disagrees with your view is irrelevant and that Ubuntu and Mint make it easier than Windows and if they could only expand their hardware support and gaming they could beat Windows. It is your experience that Linux is not easier to install when you have a Windows driver disk (yet the point was an OEM install without the driver disk), except MAYBE for Mint, and you again make the point that the only reason why Mint made it that far was because Ubuntu wants to destroy Windows and rule the world. We are all mistaken that Linux is not competing for market share because the fact that Linux is getting easier to use is proof that it is. Linux is about copy-left and they want to permeate society with their values and ideals.

But I don't think anyone was directly arguing ANY of that? The point with the market share thing was that WHILE UBUNTU might have these designs, Linux developers in general do not much care. It may come as a surprise to you, especially considering your 6 years experience in it, but Ubuntu is not the only game in town. Ubuntu is a Linux, Linux is NOT Ubuntu!

If you take someone with zero knowledge it will be much easier for them to learn Linux than it will Windows! I have proven this 6 times now...With my own kids. Get rid of all the Microsoft baggage and Linux is easier to install and use. No matter what skill level you wish to achieve. Take an 80 year old novice and put them on a Linux machine then a Windows machine. They will use Linux much easier! They will not be able to do much beside install packages and use them, but would they be able to do any more with Windows? But if they did want to dig in and learn then they will find Linux easier to figure out. Again, you can argue that till you are blue in the face, but I have seen the proof. So have several others in here who have raised kids with Linux or who deal with older people.

There are aspects about Linux that do put it at a disadvantage to Windows. Hardware support is a big one. It is hard to compare a Windows that comes pre-installed on a computer to an OEM Linux that needs to be installed from an ISO. But when you compare that Linux to an OEM Windows, which was MY point, Linux suddenly gets much easier. Especially if all your hardware is agreeable. If you have problem hardware? Then yeah, Linux becomes harder. No doubt about that.

But this is all just talk anyway. It matters not what your opinion or my own is. The truth of the matter is Ubuntu is not going to beat out Windows anytime soon. It is a Windows world and it will remain one. Especially if Ubuntu cannot tighten things back up like they were a couple years ago. Most people are used to the Windows way and refuse to change even for a free OS. I suppose Linux will continue to evolve in a way that things become easier for these chowderheads. That is fine. Nothing wrong with easy, just as long as they do not dumb it down. So far Linux has taken a couple major hits in the dumb down department but nothing that cannot be bypassed or fixed. Even Linux Mint is still a full featured Linux that does not lack in any functionality. But I think you may be mistaken in what you believe the purpose of Linux Mint is! Nowhere do they say anything about taking market share from Windows. Let me quote from the Mint 9 guide:

The purpose of Linux Mint is to provide a desktop operating system that home users and companies can use at no cost and which is as efficient, easy to use, and elegant as possible.

One of the ambitions of the Linux Mint project is to become the best operating system available by making it easy for people to get to use advanced technologies, rather than by simplifying them (and thereby reducing their capabilities), or by copying the approaches taken by other developers.

The goal is to develop our own idea of the ideal desktop. We think that it is best to make the most out of the modern technologies that exist under Linux and make it easy for everybody to use its most advanced features.


While it would be foolish to put the time and effort into ANYTHING with no desire for people to use and appreciate it, I see nothing here suggesting that Mint wants to take "market share" away from Windows. To the contrary, it would seem that Clem understands that the focus needs to be on the OS, not on attracting people or beating competition. Yes, they want to make Linux as easy to use as possible, but not at the expense of reducing Linux's capabilities.

That is what Linux is about. Each developer creating his idea of the perfect desktop.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Kaye on Sat May 22, 2010 11:46 pm

Hey FedoraRefugee,
.
.
.
.
Fantastic post. +100000
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 9:26 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:alrighty then... :roll:

That was a lot of arguing but yet you really didn't say much. Only that everything that disagrees with your view is irrelevant



Sarcasm isnt a good basis for dialogue. I didnt say that peoples thoughts are irrelevant if they disagree, I am point out a logical fallacy. There were a few straw men and red herrings that needed to be called out. Its not that your positions or feelings are invalid, they just didnt address my argument. You do understand logic and the fallacies right? Ad hominem (Attacking the poster rather than the argument), Straw man (Arguing against a position that isnt quite what the OP was saying), and a red herring (similar to a straw man, but designed to divert attention away from one issue rather than necessarily framing your opponents argument inaccurately).


I think I made it clear that I was talking about ubuntu and mint rather than the kernel. There is nothing inaccurate about saying that Ubuntu cant control what is done with the kernel, though I dont think that is going to stop them from making the shell/interface more user friendly or contradict my claim that the OS is in fact trying to compete with windows and fight for our 'market'. Its not that what most of what was said is wrong or that I am invalidating your feelings or thoughts, they just didnt address what I was really getting at.



FedoraRefugee wrote:It is your experience that Linux is not easier to install when you have a Windows driver disk (yet the point was an OEM install without the driver disk)


That might have been what YOU were talking about, for whatever reason, but that didnt have anything to do with my argument which is based on the end user experience. I guess if you had made an argument linking OEM installations for the sales floor to how linux competes in the market that would have been valid, but for now most people are installing linux themselves. I said my experience as a user was that intalling linux to a state where it works for basic needs (before mint, which tipped the balance for me) it was historically harder for noobs to install linux than windows at home....end user experience, not corporate or commercial experience.

Now thats changed though. Mint for me is now easier to install than windows and it works pretty much out of the box, except maybe I have to click on a link for the broadcom drivers.



FedoraRefugee wrote: you again make the point that the only reason why Mint made it that far was because Ubuntu wants to destroy Windows and rule the world.


That is both hyperbole and a partial straw man.

Its not that Mint or Ubuntu is trying to destroy Windows for the sake of destroying them, but Ubuntu IS trying to compete and Mint is based on Ubuntu and is even more user friendly. Here you are substituting "destroy" with "competing with their market share" just to belittle your opponent.

Ubuntu and Mint are trying to be the best OS's they can be and are trying to compete for our market share, or at least Ubuntu is, not just to destroy windows but as a consequence they do have to compete with them.



FedoraRefugee wrote:We are all mistaken that Linux is not competing for market share because the fact that Linux is getting easier to use is proof that it is.


Actually you are purposefully omitting the strongest argument I made to support my case and substituting it with the weakest one to make your own position look more valid than it is. I was talking about the distros, not the kernel, specifically Ubuntu and their offshoots. They are not competing for our market share just because they are getting easier to use, though its not that unreasonable of assumption.

I am arguing that Ubuntu is trying to compete for our market share because I have written documentation of their stated intent to do so. Im not sure how you can dismiss that one, unless you try to claim that I must have been talking about the kernel despite naming Ubuntu by name.....Still, you have provided no evidence that the people behind the main kernel distro are not also trying to compete for our market share....and lets not forget that you made the original claim which means the burden of proof is on you and not me. I have however substantiated my counter claims with documented facts, and I was describing "linux" as the sum total of open source software in the distros and not just the kernel.



FedoraRefugee wrote:alrighty then... :roll:

That was a lot of arguing but yet you really didn't say much. Only that everything that disagrees with your view is irrelevant and that Ubuntu and Mint make it easier than Windows and if they could only expand their hardware support and gaming they could beat Windows. It is your experience that Linux is not easier to install when you have a Windows driver disk (yet the point was an OEM install without the driver disk), except MAYBE for Mint, and you again make the point that the only reason why Mint made it that far was because Ubuntu wants to destroy Windows and rule the world. We are all mistaken that Linux is not competing for market share because the fact that Linux is getting easier to use is proof that it is. Linux is about copy-left and they want to permeate society with their values and ideals.

But I don't think anyone was directly arguing ANY of that? The point with the market share thing was that WHILE UBUNTU might have these designs, Linux developers in general do not much care. It may come as a surprise to you, especially considering your 6 years experience in it, but Ubuntu is not the only game in town. Ubuntu is a Linux, Linux is NOT Ubuntu!

If you take someone with zero knowledge it will be much easier for them to learn Linux than it will Windows! I have proven this 6 times now...With my own kids. Get rid of all the Microsoft baggage and Linux is easier to install and use. No matter what skill level you wish to achieve. Take an 80 year old novice and put them on a Linux machine then a Windows machine. They will use Linux much easier! They will not be able to do much beside install packages and use them, but would they be able to do any more with Windows? But if they did want to dig in and learn then they will find Linux easier to figure out. Again, you can argue that till you are blue in the face, but I have seen the proof. So have several others in here who have raised kids with Linux or who deal with older people.

There are aspects about Linux that do put it at a disadvantage to Windows. Hardware support is a big one. It is hard to compare a Windows that comes pre-installed on a computer to an OEM Linux that needs to be installed from an ISO. But when you compare that Linux to an OEM Windows, which was MY point, Linux suddenly gets much easier. Especially if all your hardware is agreeable. If you have problem hardware? Then yeah, Linux becomes harder. No doubt about that.

But this is all just talk anyway. It matters not what your opinion or my own is. The truth of the matter is Ubuntu is not going to beat out Windows anytime soon. It is a Windows world and it will remain one. Especially if Ubuntu cannot tighten things back up like they were a couple years ago. Most people are used to the Windows way and refuse to change even for a free OS. I suppose Linux will continue to evolve in a way that things become easier for these chowderheads. That is fine. Nothing wrong with easy, just as long as they do not dumb it down. So far Linux has taken a couple major hits in the dumb down department but nothing that cannot be bypassed or fixed. Even Linux Mint is still a full featured Linux that does not lack in any functionality. But I think you may be mistaken in what you believe the purpose of Linux Mint is! Nowhere do they say anything about taking market share from Windows. Let me quote from the Mint 9 guide:

While it would be foolish to put the time and effort into ANYTHING with no desire for people to use and appreciate it, I see nothing here suggesting that Mint wants to take "market share" away from Windows


I suppose that one has some validity.

Still, you are slightly framing my argument. In saying that Ubuntu and its derivatives are trying to compete with Windows I was not saying that the goal is to reduce Windows share as much as promote their own, but now you bring up the question of whether trying to gain a larger market share means that you are diminishing the market share for your competition....while you COULD argue that spreading linux to the point where its on every desktop and netbook and smartphone wont compete with the windows market, due to being able to dual boot, I would have to strongly disagree. If linux gets that far windows will take a hit.

Is Ubuntu and its derivatives trying to destroy windows for the sake of destroying windows rather than to be its own thing? Of course not. I didnt say that though. All I said is that they are competing, and the rest was my own conjecture.



Ubuntu and its derivatives are trying to compete with windows and mac for our market share. Its documented as their stated intent. Within the context of the OP we are obviously talking about the distros, and linux geeks who dont think that the distros should cater to noobs coming from windows vs those who do. It was argued that linux (meaning the distros) are not fighting for our market share, and it has been parroted by some people here as well. However, this particular distro is based on a form of linux which is trying to compete with windows for larger market share, and therefor IS interested in what noobs want for ease of use.....and mint just took it a step further to make it even easier for the end user. I dont have an equivalent statement from Mints team exactly, but by saying that they want to be their own thing rather than a better windows doesnt mean they are not competing or that they dont want to bend to the needs of noobs in favor of catering only to the old school linux geeks.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Biker on Sun May 23, 2010 10:01 am

Sorry. Implying that Mint is based on Ubuntu, therefore Mint falls under the same mindset of the Ubuntu devs is logic at its worst.

While the Ubuntu devs may have some lofty goals for the OS, reality dictates that what they're shooting for will never happen. Oh sure, if skiing became a favorite pastime in Hades, it could happen, but again, we're talking reality here. And the recent direction they've taken with the OS pretty much guarantees it will never happen if they continue down that particular avenue.

You have a habit of discounting any argument that doesn't fall into line with your premise. Yet the premise itself is faulty when you attempt to pigeon hole it into your narrow view. Will Linux garner more attention and become more popular? Possibly. Will it ever become so popular that it overtakes and passes Windows? No. It's far too ingrained in the business world. And while there are some decent Windows application replacements, no company in their right mind would change their development strategy to a Linux environment unless they could be reasonably assured that they would profit from the venture.

To say that the goal of Linux is to beat Windows falls into the same fatal flaw that the anti-MS zealots have been following for years. The goal of Linux is to provide an alternative OS for those that wish to use it. Nothing in the Linux philosophy says that its goal is to beat another OS. Just because you have a set of devs for one distro claiming that it's THEIR philosophy doesn't make it right, nor does it make it mainstream.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 10:08 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:alrighty then... :roll:

That was a lot of arguing but yet you really didn't say much. Only that everything that disagrees with your view is irrelevant



Sarcasm isnt a good basis for dialogue. I didnt say that peoples thoughts are irrelevant if they disagree, but am pointing out a logical fallacy. There were a few straw men and red herrings that needed to be called out. Its not that your positions or feelings are invalid, they just didnt address my argument. You do understand logic and the fallacies right? Ad hominem (Attacking the poster rather than the argument), Straw man (Arguing against a position that isnt quite what the OP was saying), and a red herring (similar to a straw man, but designed to divert attention away from one issue rather than necessarily framing your opponents argument inaccurately).


I think I made it clear that I was talking about ubuntu and mint rather than the kernel.

FedoraRefugee wrote:It is your experience that Linux is not easier to install when you have a Windows driver disk (yet the point was an OEM install without the driver disk)


That might have been what YOU were talking about, for whatever reason, but that didnt have anything to do with my argument which is based on the end user experience, or rather my personal experience. How does talking about an OEM installation on the manufacturing or marketing floor contradict my experience as an end user? Its not that what you are saying is irrelevant because you disagree, its just is not a logical refutation of what I said.

Mint for me is now easier to install than windows. That has not been the case historically with previous distros of Linux.

FedoraRefugee wrote: you again make the point that the only reason why Mint made it that far was because Ubuntu wants to destroy Windows and rule the world.


That is both hyperbole and a partial straw man.

Its not that Mint or Ubuntu is trying to destroy Windows for the sake of destroying them, but Ubuntu IS trying to compete and Mint. Mint is a distro that cares even MORE about how easy it is for noobs. Here you are substituting "destroy" with "competing with their market share" just to exaggerate what I said.

FedoraRefugee wrote:We are all mistaken that Linux is not competing for market share because the fact that Linux is getting easier to use is proof that it is.


Actually you are purposefully omitting the strongest argument I made to support my case. I was talking about the distros, not the kernel, specifically Ubuntu and their offshoots. There is no question that I am correct in saying that these distros are competing with windows for a larger share that is currently occupied by windows and mac. This isnt even open for debate. We have written documentation that this is their stated intent.

While it would be foolish to put the time and effort into ANYTHING with no desire for people to use and appreciate it, I see nothing here suggesting that Mint wants to take "market share" away from Windows
[/quote]

Saying this doesnt address the issue being discussed. The point isnt whether they are taking AWAY from windows share. The point is whether the developers care enough about making it easy and catering to noobs coming from a windows background. It was argued that noobs should sit down and shut up rather than complain to developers about ease of use and the learning curve and tell them what would make it easier for them....I dont agree with the OP that developers as a whole are necessarily that apathetic to the difficulties of non-geeks coming from windows.

FedoraRefugee wrote:But I don't think anyone was directly arguing ANY of that? The point with the market share thing was that WHILE UBUNTU might have these designs, Linux developers in general do not much care. It may come as a surprise to you, especially considering your 6 years experience in it, but Ubuntu is not the only game in town. Ubuntu is a Linux, Linux is NOT Ubuntu!


That argument goes both ways. It could just as easily discredit either side of the argument by pointing out that some are catering to windows noobs and others are not....but you have not substantiated your claims that a vast majority of developers dont care about non-geeks, and the burden of proof is on the claimant. The two distros with the largest market share are catering to those who are coming from windows with little to no experience or desire to become a programmer or hacker. They have a huge share of the linux developers behind them, and they are not the only ones trying to specifically cater to non-geeks.

If a distro is in fact trying to cater to the lowest or near lowest common denominator, without losing higher end functionality, they really SHOULD care about the complaints of people coming from windows, and I think a lot of them do.

FedoraRefugee wrote:If you take someone with zero knowledge it will be much easier for them to learn Linux than it will Windows! I have proven this 6 times now...With my own kids.


Argument from personal experience....When you make such arguments you should add the disclaimer that it is your personal experience, because its not a credible objective argument.

I would agree that to an end user, Mint may now be easier to install and use out of the box than windows. With Ubuntu there is still some issues with proprietary drivers that slow down the initial useability, but they are most definitely competing for our market share.


FedoraRefugee wrote:But this is all just talk anyway. It matters not what your opinion or my own is.


Some parts of this debate have been objective and not a matter of opinion. Ease of use is largely subjective, but subjective things do exist. It is objectively false to claim that none of the developers care about the difficulties of windows noobs or the LCD of the PC market coming to linux. They are competing with windows market share, not to destroy windows but to do their own thing....but they are competing.

An argument still has to be sound and not rely on fallacies despite the subjective nature of some of the issues. There is objective proof that some developers, the largest distro of linux for example, is trying to compete for our market share. It is also objectively true that Mint has a larger following than Fedora or Suse. These are not opinions.


FedoraRefugee wrote: It is a Windows world and it will remain one.



Your pessimism isnt shared by the developers.

And you say that you are not allowed over on the Ubuntu forums :lol:


I think that is a really negative attitude and may prove not to be the case. I think Linux has the capacity to compete with windows.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 10:24 am

Biker wrote:Sorry. Implying that Mint is based on Ubuntu, therefore Mint falls under the same mindset of the Ubuntu devs is logic at its worst.


Perhaps, but if you think that it follows that Mint is NOT trying to compete for a larger market share just because they are not Ubuntu which is competing, I would ask for some evidence to back up your claim.

Biker wrote:While the Ubuntu devs may have some lofty goals for the OS, reality dictates that what they're shooting for will never happen.


Why does reality dictate anything? I believe they can compete, especially if there is a way for people to make (or save) money with it. I wonder how much Ubuntu devs saved by developing Ubuntu rather than purchasing windows for their vast corporate needs.

As a corporation, which may not represent all of linux, I prefer the philosophy of Ubuntu and Mint to that of windows.....I dont have a problem with the obscure and elitist brands of linux, but nor do I agree with discounting the critiques of people who want linux to be even easier.

Biker wrote:You have a habit of discounting any argument that doesn't fall into line with your premise.


No. Its not about conflicting opinions, its about whether you are addressing my arguments or something besides my arguments. Are you an alt?


Biker wrote:Yet the premise itself is faulty when you attempt to pigeon hole it into your narrow view.


Equally so for the original claim that developers dont care about windows noobs. There is a spectrum of attitudes that either do or do not agree with the OP, shared by developers.


Biker wrote:Will Linux garner more attention and become more popular? Possibly. Will it ever become so popular that it overtakes and passes Windows? No. It's far too ingrained in the business world.


???!
You do realize that the business world is one place where linux already is taking a fair market share away from windows, right? Servers and business networks is where Linux is really cutting into the windows share.

Biker wrote:To say that the goal of Linux is to beat Windows falls into the same fatal flaw that the anti-MS zealots have been following for years. The goal of Linux is to provide an alternative OS for those that wish to use it. Nothing in the Linux philosophy says that its goal is to beat another OS. Just because you have a set of devs for one distro claiming that it's THEIR philosophy doesn't make it right, nor does it make it mainstream.


The goal might not be to "beat" windows, except that many of the developers do want to compete for the market share current occupied by windows, which is a pretty competitive mind frame.

Whether they will be successful again does not address my argument....I am not discounting you because it doesnt fit into my world view, I am discounting it because however valid the opinion may be as a stand alone statement/opinion, it doesnt address my argument which had nothing to do with how successful they will be.

I dont agree that they will necessarily fail.

Also, its more than one developer (the largest developer) who is marketing itself to windows noobs and the LCD of the PC market. There are tons who market themselves this way.



And its not totally out of left field to look specifically at Ubuntu in Mint forum. Mint is pretty much Ubuntu, and while the mindset of Mint might not be the same as Ubuntu, Mint seems even MORE interested in making it easy for the end user than Ubuntu does.....they DO seem to care about those complaints for those migrating from windows, which is likely why they developed this OS to begin with.





But you dont even like mint, but you still hang around to tell people that it can never compete with windows.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Kaye on Sun May 23, 2010 10:33 am

Nick_Djinn,

I'm not going to take the time to craft a lengthly response like the others, but I will say one thing about this:
Nick_djinn wrote:Your pessimism isnt shared by the developers.

Assuming we're talking about Mint, I don't think you know very much about the developers. At least not compared to many others in this forum. Also, it is not pessimism, but realism. Why should we waste time catering to the average Windows user when converting him is in no way a goal of the operating system?

The fact that no one has come to your defense and everyone is arguing against you also speaks to your position - it just isn't true.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby exploder on Sun May 23, 2010 11:02 am

The goal of Linux Mint is to make Linux user friendly, not to make a free version of Windows. Mint 9 is probably one of the easiest distributions to use, I can't see things getting much easier than they are. :D Anyone that can point and click a mouse can run Linux Mint with no previous experience with Linux. All of the applications in the menu have descriptions and many of the applications used are familiar to Windows users anyway. Everything in Linux Mint is pretty strait forward, there is no digging through layers of the menu to find settings like there is in Windows. Linux Mint pretty much maintains itself, no defragging, anti virus, spyware tools, so you don't have to waste much time on system maintenance.

I sold a duel boot system a while back to someone with no prior computer experience of any kind, he preferred Linux Mint over Windows XP, he said it was so much easier to use. I can't see anyone having trouble adjusting to running Linux Mint.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Fred on Sun May 23, 2010 11:16 am

exploder,

I too have seen this same thing over and over with new users. Not reforming Windows users but new computer users.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. The biggest impediment to using Linux for Windows converts is their Windows experience. Learning Linux is easy, apparently unlearning Windows is the difficult part. The investment they have made in time and money to learn Windows is worse than worthless in Linux. I am sure this is a bitter pill to acknowledge and swallow. Starting over is just not in a lot of peoples DNA. :-)

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby exploder on Sun May 23, 2010 11:18 am

Learning Linux is easy, apparently unlearning Windows is the difficult part.


That's hitting the nail on the head! :D
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Biker on Sun May 23, 2010 11:22 am

There's no reason to "unlearn" anything. They key is to realize that Linux is a different OS, and there are different ways of doing things. If I had to "unlearn Windows", I'd be in a pickle whenever I used it. ;) :lol:
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 11:34 am

Lets not forget that 98% of Mint is Ubuntu, and Ubuntu got where it is today by trying to compete with windows....Mint is Mint because ubuntu is trying to compete with windows. If they didnt, Mint would be something else if it existed at all.

Kaye wrote:Assuming we're talking about Mint, I don't think you know very much about the developers. At least not compared to many others in this forum. Also, it is not pessimism, but realism. Why should we waste time catering to the average Windows user when converting him is in no way a goal of the operating system?


I was talking about Ubuntu and other distros that are geared towards user friendliness. I am new to mint.

But if you want an operating system to be easy to use there is a VERY good reason to at least be aware of what people from windows are experiencing. Its cultural. You have to be aware of the skill sets of the average user.

98% of Mint is based on an operating system that was designed specifically to compete with windows. Maybe Mint developers of that extra 2% have different ideas, but in practice they are doing exactly what would help Ubuntu compete with windows.



exploder wrote:The goal of Linux Mint is to make Linux user friendly, not to make a free version of Windows.


Of course. I was not saying Mint should copy windows.

What I was saying is that if you want to compete for a larger market share in general, you shouldnt dismiss people who are saying they are having trouble....I dont mean defending yourself from verbal attacks, but if somebody wants help or has ideas to make it easier, dont knock them down just because they are coming from windows.

I never suggested copying windows. I dont think copying them is necessary for addressing the user difficulties of those coming from them, or from OSX for that matter. I think user difficulties of people coming from OSX is equally worth considering rather than dismissing.

exploder wrote:I can't see things getting much easier than they are. :D Anyone that can point and click a mouse can run Linux Mint with no previous experience with Linux.


YES! And why is it so easy? Because Ubuntu was trying to compete with windows rather than cater to a small clique of hackers, and Mint is Ubuntu with some tweaks....and maybe a few original innovations.

Mint is Mint because Ubuntu is trying to compete with windows.


exploder wrote:I sold a duel boot system a while back to someone with no prior computer experience of any kind, he preferred Linux Mint over Windows XP, he said it was so much easier to use. I can't see anyone having trouble adjusting to running Linux Mint.


I agree. Mint is easier to use. Mint is easier to use because Ubuntu, which was trying to compete with windows, provided the innovation to the Mint devs.



And yes, I am an anti Microsoft fanatic as is a huge segment of the user base for both Ubuntu and Mint,regardless of what the devs are.
Last edited by Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 11:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Fred on Sun May 23, 2010 11:36 am

Biker,

From what I have seen of your posts, you are a rare bird to be able to keep your Windows and Linux worlds from colliding and self destructing. :-)

Most don't seem to have that ability. I know that I get totally confused and frustrated when I have the unpleasant experience of needing to do something on Windows. lol

Fred
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby exploder on Sun May 23, 2010 11:42 am

Nick_Djinn, Ubuntu is trying to compete with the Mac OS. Also, people were not born with the ability to do things in Windows, they had to learn for themselves and the same is true with Linux.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 11:46 am

exploder wrote:Nick_Djinn, Ubuntu is trying to compete with the Mac OS. Also, people were not born with the ability to do things in Windows, they had to learn for themselves and the same is true with Linux.



They are trying to compete with both, according to their own mission statement.

Maybe the handful of developers specific to mint dont want to call what they are doing competing, but the vast majority of innovation is still coming from Ubuntu which IS trying to compete with both major OS's, which means that Mint owes much of its own innovation to trying to compete with windows and mac. They inherited that by using Ubuntu to build their OS.



If you want to change something in Mint this can also be accomplished by changing it in Ubuntu first instead...though mint could theoretically undue any such changes.

Changes in mint are driven by anti microsoft fanatic developers and user base via Ubuntu if not via that extra 2%....though in practice I think they are competing even if they choose not to use that language.
Last edited by Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Fred on Sun May 23, 2010 11:47 am

Nick_Djinn,

The only problem with your assertions is that you are basing your arguments on false assumptions. Your lack of understanding of the Linux ecosystem and the history of how we got to the point we are today is the Achilles' heel in your arguments.

It would take more time and effort than I have right now to try to enlighten you. It should give you pause however, and maybe encourage you to do a little research on your own in this area. :-)

Fred
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 11:49 am

Fred wrote:Nick_Djinn,

The only problem with your assertions is that you are basing your arguments on false assumptions. Your lack of understanding of the Linux ecosystem and the history of how we got to the point we are today is the Achilles' heel in your arguments.

It would take more time and effort than I have right now to try to enlighten you. It should give you pause however, and maybe encourage you to do a little research on your own in this area. :-)

Fred



Maybe you are right. I could be wrong about how some things work here. Still, I think its hard to deny Ubutus influene and they are most definitely trying to compete with windows.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Biker on Sun May 23, 2010 11:50 am

Fred wrote:Biker,

From what I have seen of your posts, you are a rare bird to be able to keep your Windows and Linux worlds from colliding and self destructing. :-)

Most don't seem to have that ability. I know that I get totally confused and frustrated when I have the unpleasant experience of needing to do something on Windows. lol

Fred


I've been known to type "ls" in the CLI in Windows. :shock: :lol:

I'm fortunate in my experiences where I've used many different systems and OS's. Started off with a Univac DCT 9000 series system that had to be programmed nightly to update the date in the system (using punched data cards, no less!). Then it was on to a Univac 418. I've used VMS, Solaris, System V, CP/M, DOS and a few others.

The problem with many users is they have experience with Windows, but they really DON'T have experience. They're used to point and click. That's it. They don't understand the OS, and if something goes Tango Uniform, they're lost. Same with Linux. If they can't point and click, forget it. God help them if they're forced to terminal for a simple ./configure, ./make, ./make-install.

For this very reason, Linux will never "beat" Windows, and it really shouldn't. For the zealots, they bemoan this fact and go on their anti-MS tirades in a vain attempt to get users to switch. Users aren't going to switch if Windows is working for them, and they shouldn't switch. Why should they? Just because we have a segment of the population out there that doesn't get the real philosophy behind Linux? I wouldn't switch either!

Linux is a great OS. However, it's not designed to "beat" anything. Never has been, never will be. And even though there are some misguided souls who think Linux is the answer to all the world's ills, the majority of Linux users will remain true to the roots of the OS and we'll continue on the same path that was set out for us all those years ago.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 12:34 pm

There are a lot of anti microsoft fanatics, myself included. However, I think that all bias aside Linux does have the capacity to compete.


And look at this.....'

http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeeh ... ttily-Mmm/

"WOW,Portable OS Mint 9 Prettily Mmm.look like windows 7"



In my opinion it is definitely its own thing and not just a free windows imitation built on linux. I think that poster goes too far in making that comparison....still, I have to wonder if the "im not competing with windows thing" is more a defense from criticism, hoping on a bandwagon of disgruntled Ubuntu users and critics, rather than the reality.

Ubuntu is trying to compete with windows. Mint polishes Ubuntu. The OS is largely driven by anti MS fanatics, mostly via Ubuntu but also via other sources.


But then you have people who wont use Mint because they think its devs are antisemitic :lol: Just because its developer didnt support the invasion of Gaza or the environmental catastrophe that was inflicted when Israel bombed that Lebanese power plant.
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