Linux is Not Windows

Chat about Linux in general

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Biker on Sun May 23, 2010 1:48 pm

Nick_Djinn wrote:There are a lot of anti microsoft fanatics, myself included.


And with that, I'm bowing out with a famous quote from Heinlein.

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Kaye on Sun May 23, 2010 3:00 pm

Nick_Djinn,

Before you make any other posts on this subject please take Fred's advice and learn something. Linux's mission is not "destroy Windows" no matter how many times you say it is. All too often in Linux forums there are people like you making blind arguments without any actual knowledge of the subject matter. This is one of those cases. I'm not calling you stupid or a troll, but seriously you need to delve much deeper into the Linux world before you're opinion in debates like these will be honored. Right now you're just repeating the same (false) information over and over.
Last edited by Kaye on Sun May 23, 2010 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby FedoraRefugee on Sun May 23, 2010 4:19 pm

Boy, you sure made it hard to reply with your double post Nick! Did you know you can actually edit your posts?

Sarcasm isnt a good basis for dialogue. I didnt say that peoples thoughts are irrelevant if they disagree, I am point out a logical fallacy. There were a few straw men and red herrings that needed to be called out. Its not that your positions or feelings are invalid, they just didnt address my argument. You do understand logic and the fallacies right? Ad hominem (Attacking the poster rather than the argument), Straw man (Arguing against a position that isnt quite what the OP was saying), and a red herring (similar to a straw man, but designed to divert attention away from one issue rather than necessarily framing your opponents argument inaccurately).


I think I made it clear that I was talking about ubuntu and mint rather than the kernel. There is nothing inaccurate about saying that Ubuntu cant control what is done with the kernel, though I dont think that is going to stop them from making the shell/interface more user friendly or contradict my claim that the OS is in fact trying to compete with windows and fight for our 'market'. Its not that what most of what was said is wrong or that I am invalidating your feelings or thoughts, they just didnt address what I was really getting at.


I was not being sarcastic Nick. :( You are doing a lot of typing but are not really making much of a point. I do thank you for regurgitating some of the material you learned in argument 101 though! Nick, there are no strawmen or red herrings in my posts. And Nick, I most certainly am not making any ad hominem attacks on you! I stated that you are doing a lot of arguing without saying anything. Ad hominem is when I start attacking your character as a new Mint user to make you look foolish compared to my vast experience. Or to bring up the irrelevant lie you told in the chevy forum to try and show your point in a Linux forum is wrong.

I still don't think you quite understand what Linux even is! You compare Ubuntu to the kernel, but why not debian? Or Gentoo, Arch, Fedora, Slackware, Puppy, DSL, Suse, Knoppix, Sabayon, or any of the other 500+ Linux distros? You do realize Ubuntu is JUST a Linux distro do you not? One that is based on debian just as Mint is based on it. But that does not mean the fork has anything to do with the parent project. Why do you think there was a fork in the first place?

You might want to pull out your argument textbook for a handful of terms, but there was no strawman or red herring here. I quite distinctly state in my post that you are doing a lot of arguing without making any kind of point. You prove it yourself. I listed what I felt you were trying to say, if I got your argument wrong then you should spend the time clarifying your point instead of trying to argue mine!

That might have been what YOU were talking about, for whatever reason, but that didnt have anything to do with my argument which is based on the end user experience. I guess if you had made an argument linking OEM installations for the sales floor to how linux competes in the market that would have been valid, but for now most people are installing linux themselves. I said my experience as a user was that intalling linux to a state where it works for basic needs (before mint, which tipped the balance for me) it was historically harder for noobs to install linux than windows at home....end user experience, not corporate or commercial experience.

Now thats changed though. Mint for me is now easier to install than windows and it works pretty much out of the box, except maybe I have to click on a link for the broadcom drivers.


By OEM install i do not mean the manufacturing floor. I mean a boxed Windows that you buy off the shelf. One that was not made for a certain computer. This has EVERYTHING to do with your argument! If you want to compare the reinstall of your HP laptop's version of Windows that came on it then yes, it will probably be easier than trying to install Linux on a computer that it did NOT come on. But is this not an unfair comparison? I recognize that the fact that Windows is pre-installed on most computers is a serious advantage to Microsoft. It is keeping many people from Linux. Why suffer something you do not know when the Windows that is already on your computer works just fine?

My point was you take an off the shelf Windows disk and try to install that on your HP laptop! This is what we did on ours. The HP version of Vista Home Premium that came on our three HP laptops was garbage! The HP crapware made it buggy and unreliable. There was no way to strip this crapware that did not damage the underlying OS. We were able to get Windows Vista Ultimate through our school very cheaply. When you install this on a computer you will need to find all the drivers yourself. The Linux install on MOST distros is vastly easier than this. This is making a fair comparison. That is the point.

But, then you go and validate this point yourself. Ubuntu is no harder to install than Mint, I would imagine you know that if you have been using Ubuntu for 6 years. Fedora is no harder to install. You have to invoke a 3rd party repo to get the proprietary graphics drivers and some of the patented codecs. So what? This involves two copy and past bash commands that are easily found. Much simpler than a Windows install!

But that is all beside the point anyway. I do not care how much of a problem it is for you to install or run Linux! I do just fine, that is all that counts! If you need help you can ask me and I may help you out. :D

That is both hyperbole and a partial straw man.

Its not that Mint or Ubuntu is trying to destroy Windows for the sake of destroying them, but Ubuntu IS trying to compete and Mint is based on Ubuntu and is even more user friendly. Here you are substituting "destroy" with "competing with their market share" just to belittle your opponent.

Ubuntu and Mint are trying to be the best OS's they can be and are trying to compete for our market share, or at least Ubuntu is, not just to destroy windows but as a consequence they do have to compete with them.


Sheesh, I even quoted you direct from the Mint install guide. :roll: Let me ask you something, what benefit is it to attract more users? Does Ubuntu or Mint make more money? Are they taking the competition away from Windows? Do they actually compete with Windows? Is it not just a talking point anyway?

Listen, Ubuntu can keep their bug #1. I do not think they even take this seriously! If they do then they sure have been screwing up that last couple years! They are getting more cutting edge if anything. Mint has nothing to do with all that either. Just because it is based on Ubuntu doesn't prove anything. This argument is just getting silly. If you want to take market share (what market? :roll: ) away from Windows then great! Have at it. Personally, I would rather play in a fire ant hill then worry about how Windows compares to Linux, but each to their own I guess. Doesn't really change much on my end. :D

Actually you are purposefully omitting the strongest argument I made to support my case and substituting it with the weakest one to make your own position look more valid than it is. I was talking about the distros, not the kernel, specifically Ubuntu and their offshoots. They are not competing for our market share just because they are getting easier to use, though its not that unreasonable of assumption.

I am arguing that Ubuntu is trying to compete for our market share because I have written documentation of their stated intent to do so. Im not sure how you can dismiss that one, unless you try to claim that I must have been talking about the kernel despite naming Ubuntu by name.....Still, you have provided no evidence that the people behind the main kernel distro are not also trying to compete for our market share....and lets not forget that you made the original claim which means the burden of proof is on you and not me. I have however substantiated my counter claims with documented facts, and I was describing "linux" as the sum total of open source software in the distros and not just the kernel.


Great! You win! I never argued to the contrary! I am arguing that LINUX is general is not worried about this. I am sure EVERY distro has its share of dorks who are! Just as I am sure that Ubuntu has a vast majority of more experienced, regular users who do not give a damn about Windows one way or the other. What is your point? Why are we even arguing this? :shock: The Linux Mint forum is just shock full of users who want to see Windows destroyed and Linux Mint on every computer in the world. Do you really want to be a part of THAT? Whatever! That is YOUR waste of time. If it were me, I would be learning all I could about Linux!

I think I will bow out of this one myself Nick. If you want to win then okay, you won. Whatever that means. It changes nothing. I am not even sure what your point is? That Ubuntu has Windows listed as its number one bug? Okay, you are right, that is documented. I have no idea what other documented facts you have presented, but I will roll with it. :D

Your pessimism isnt shared by the developers.

And you say that you are not allowed over on the Ubuntu forums :lol:


I think that is a really negative attitude and may prove not to be the case. I think Linux has the capacity to compete with windows.


Any developer that has half a brain knows Linux will NEVER rival Windows on the home desktop. They really do not care. Windows is Windows and Linux is Linux.

Who says I am not allowed in the Ubuntu forums? I am not banned form any forum! Not that it matters though, because I do not post in the Ubuntu forum. I really very rarely post any help requests in ANY forum. But I use the Ubutnu forum all the time for help. I have many threads over there bookmarked, I did even back when I was using Fedora. But I think I have benefited most from the Arch and Gentoo wikis. Great source of generic info.

Biker wrote:And with that, I'm bowing out with a famous quote from Heinlein.

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.


Sounds like good advice. I sure hope Ubuntu beats that evil MS soon though... :?
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby scorp123 on Sun May 23, 2010 4:38 pm

Biker wrote: And the recent direction they've taken with the OS pretty much guarantees it will never happen if they continue down that particular avenue.
Yes. Been there, done that. It's very hard to convince customers to stop buying Microsoft crap. Very hard ... but not impossible. There are those who really sit down and take a close look at what they really need. And then they indeed realise that they don't need to spend millions and millions on Microsoft licenses and that Linux on their desktop and e.g. OpenOffice would work tip top for them. And then there are others who sadly realise that they can't switch because some God-forsaken crappy application they happen to depend on only works in a Microsoft OS environment. So they have to continue to spend money ...

What works best is to take it slowly. First make them switch in their server rooms. Bye bye IIS. Hello Apache. Hello Tomcat. Bye bye MS SQL. Hello MySQL. Or even Oracle. Bye bye ASP. Hello Python. Hello Java. Bye bye Exchange. Hello (commercial) Zimbra (if you do it right they don't even need to reconfigure their Outlook clients). Bye bye Windows servers. Hello Linux servers.

Then you attack Office. Bye bye MS Office 2010 and your new crappy interface. Hello OpenOffice ... or StarOffice.

You always attack Windows last. Once you slowly eliminate their other reasons for using Windows ... then at last there won't be any reason left for them to use Windows at all. And Windows too falls. Hello Linux.

Been there, done that.

Biker wrote: The goal of Linux is to provide an alternative OS for those that wish to use it. Nothing in the Linux philosophy says that its goal is to beat another OS. Just because you have a set of devs for one distro claiming that it's THEIR philosophy doesn't make it right, nor does it make it mainstream.
True. As I said in my posting .... there are Linux vendors. And there are the Linux-related projects such as the GNU userland and the kernel itself. Their goals are not necessarily the same. The Linux vendors do want to compete ... the projects however have nothing to do with this.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby scorp123 on Sun May 23, 2010 4:42 pm

@Nick:
So you've been using Mint for 6 years ... but using the "quote" function correctly is still a mystery to you? :D

Nick_Djinn wrote: Thats kind of irrelevant.
Again mistaken. HP is a huge contributor to various Linux-related projects and even the kernel itself. It's only because of certain "voices of reason" within HP itself that nothing more drastic happened, e.g. like withdrawing all and any support for Linux at all.

Nick_Djinn wrote: HP could make their OWN distro of linux follow certain roadmaps if they created their own distro.
They did that :D ... But given that you don't know about it tells me a lot about how well that idea went ... :D

Nick_Djinn wrote: You are comparing apples to road apples.
Yeah? Riiiiiight. :lol:

Nick_Djinn wrote: Unlike HP, Ubuntu actually CAN decide where linux goes.
How so? :lol: Not even industrial giants like IBM or General Motors can do that. SUN couldn't do that. Oracle won't even try, they are happy with Linux as it is.

You see ... one of us knows what he's talking about because he's been "on the front lines" of IT for plenty of years ... and the other one doesn't. :twisted:

Nick_Djinn wrote: So you are not a fan of Mint but you hang out here anyway? What for? :/
I dropped in again to say "Bye bye" to Husse. I didn't know about his death. And since I'm here I'm also saying "hello!" to a few other "Mint oldtimers". Like it or not, but it seems I left my imprints here. I can see that even Husse used to quote me and my postings in the past 3 years and some of the stickies I wrote back then are still around. And Clem apparently never banned me, according to his own words? So I think I feel entitled to hang around here a bit. I don't need your endorsement for that.

Nick_Djinn wrote: They really do, for profit or for purely altruistic reasons they ARE trying to compete with windows.
Some Linux distributors do (try) that, yes. Especially the commercial ones such as Red Hat and Novell, few others too. But the makers of a distribution are not representing Linux as a whole in any way. They're just bundling stuff together other people have written for free and they are hoping to make money by offering professional support. Been there, done that. Actually I'm right there right now: My current employer happens to be a partner of three Linux vendors: Red Hat, Novell and Oracle. So yes, Linux vendors are competing with Microsoft ... But GNU/Linux the project is NOT. There is a difference between the two you're apparently not seeing. The goal of the one is not necessarily the goal of the other. It just so happens that their different goals are not mutually exclusive.

scorp123 wrote: Aren't we already beyond that point where we needed to worry about hardware support???

Nick_Djinn wrote: No.
You must be using really crappy hardware then. I have yet to encounter hardware that didn't work pretty much instantly with Linux. Back in the 90's I'd consult "Hardware Compatibility Lists" and spend days looking up what works and what doesn't. Now I can simpy walk into a shop and buy whatever I want. Chances are there will even be a Tux logo on it. Point in case: I needed a WiFi stick ... Guess what I found? This one:
Image

What do we read? Works with Linux ... and there is a Tux logo right there on the package. If you pay attention to what you buy, e.g. like looking at the package, then buying hardware these days is a no-brainer.

Nick_Djinn wrote: There are other ways that Linux has a steeper learning curve to the NOOB
Such as?? My wife's parents are both way beyond 70. No knowledge about computers outside of Sci-Fi movies and what they read in news papers or see on the evening news (e.g. when viruses make the headlines again ...). A real total noob has no problems whatsoever picking up Linux. For them it's the same thing. Whether you show them Windows for the first time or Linux for the first time or Mac OS X ... they don't know. They don't care. For them even a mouse is new. So we spent a few days and I showed them what they needed to know ... Result: they can now chat, jabber, Skype, use PhotoBucket and Flickr, send and receive e-mails .... No problem whatsoever.

It's always the Windows people who have troubles, because they expect some form of "free Windows" and they refuse to let go of their inadequate ways of thinking when picking up a new OS. Real noobs who have never ever used anything before don't have such problems and for them Linux is easy. Their minds and hearts are free, they're not complaining "But this is different from Windows ... " they don't even know what Windows is, so they don't care whether it's different or not, for as long as it works. And it works tip top.

Nick_Djinn wrote: ....and these distros cater to non-geeks.
They already do. An open mind is all that is required to see that. :D
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 5:58 pm

Kaye wrote:Nick_Djinn,

Before you make any other posts on this subject please take Fred's advice and learn something. Linux's mission is not "destroy Windows" no matter how many times you say it is. All too often in Linux forums there are people like you making blind arguments without any actual knowledge of the subject matter. This is one of those cases. I'm not calling you stupid or a troll, but seriously you need to delve much deeper into the Linux world before you're opinion in debates like these will be honored. Right now you're just repeating the same (false) information over and over.



I dont know if I specifically claimed that the people behind the linux kernel have a stated mission to destroy windows. What I claimed is that a lot of Mint Linuxs innovations come from anti microsoft developers, including the ones that are inherited from Ubuntu.....Many Ubuntu users consider Mint to be BARELY its own operating system....I love the changes, but you cant really get away from being Ubuntu based and Ubuntu is trying to compete for Windws and Mac''s market share competitively. Mint is basically Ubuntu made even easier.


Regardless of whether I understand the intricacies of upstream or downstream or how repositories are created, I feel like you are putting words in my mouth. When did I ever used the words "destroy"? Since when did 'understand the concerns of windows noobs'' mean 'copy the look and feel of windows'?

You do realize that whether you call it that or not, the changes that Mint Linux has made, like including proprietary software out of the box and MP3 support and Java and flash....that is exactly the changes that windows noobs wanted that the old school linux peeps were rather split on supporting.

Mint is the distro that windows noobs flock to, besides Ubuntu....You can choose to embrace that, or you can call it something different.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 6:09 pm

I am very new to Mint. I feel like I keep getting misquoted and misrepresented.

Ubuntu was easy enough to use without having to understand code or the command line....I was largely a point and click user who wanted to get away from windows for ideological reasons rather than economic ones.


I like that Ubuntu wants to compete for Windows market share. I like that Mint adds proprietary software, adding even more of the features that windows noobs generally wanted to see in Ubuntu. I can see that you have your own slant on things, but you must surely realize that much of the linux community talks about mint the same way people in this thread talk about windows users who come to linux expecting things to be easy for them?? I figured that people here would be a little more open to users who dont want to learn to hack or program or go very deep into computer skills just to keep up with the basics that people need their computers for....I guess I was mistaken. If you suggest that Mint should LISTEN to the complaints of windows users you get accused of trying to make linux a free version of windows. I disagree. It wouldnt matter if someone was coming from OSX or windows or Unix, whatever issues people have that affect the learning curve should be listened to.

Things dont have to be just like windows, but if something in not intuitive or its not an easy transition, different as it may be, maybe it should be looked at.

Ubuntu is pretty intuitive, and Mint even more so.....but because of that Mint is largely criticized by a lot of the old school geeks...yet I am seeing a parallel of that here.....man kicks dog, dog bites cat, and so on.



I really enjoy mint and think its really easy to use....several years ago most of the linux distros where not this easy to use, and many of the changes that we see in mint were met with reactions similar to how this thread has gone. I dont have to understand the technical side of things to see that this has been the case.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby FedoraRefugee on Sun May 23, 2010 6:24 pm

Nick_Djinn wrote:I am very new to Mint. I feel like I keep getting misquoted and misrepresented.

Ubuntu was easy enough to use without having to understand code or the command line....I was largely a point and click user who wanted to get away from windows for ideological reasons rather than economic ones.


I like that Ubuntu wants to compete for Windows market share. I like that Mint adds proprietary software, adding even more of the features that windows noobs generally wanted to see in Ubuntu. I can see that you have your own slant on things, but you must surely realize that much of the linux community talks about mint the same way people in this thread talk about windows users who come to linux expecting things to be easy for them?? I figured that people here would be a little more open to users who dont want to learn to hack or program or go very deep into computer skills just to keep up with the basics that people need their computers for....I guess I was mistaken. If you suggest that Mint should LISTEN to the complaints of windows users you get accused of trying to make linux a free version of windows. I disagree. It wouldnt matter if someone was coming from OSX or windows or Unix, whatever issues people have that affect the learning curve should be listened to.

Things dont have to be just like windows, but if something in not intuitive or its not an easy transition, different as it may be, maybe it should be looked at.

Ubuntu is pretty intuitive, and Mint even more so.....but because of that Mint is largely criticized by a lot of the old school geeks...yet I am seeing a parallel of that here.....man kicks dog, dog bites cat, and so on.



I really enjoy mint and think its really easy to use....several years ago most of the linux distros where not this easy to use, and many of the changes that we see in mint were met with reactions similar to how this thread has gone. I dont have to understand the technical side of things to see that this has been the case.


That is it Nick! The people running their mouths are IDIOTS!!! Linux is Linux and experienced users know it! There is nothing that can be done on any other distro that cannot be done in Mint. To say otherwise only shows the person's OWN ignorance!!!

That is kind of what we are trying to tell you here Nick, it is really only the noobs that argue about this stuff. Windows is Windows and Linux is Linux. You said it best in your last post, you say "anti-microsoft developers." I suppose such a thing must surely exist, but man, most serious Linux developer just do not care about Windows! Why should they? Just forget it Nick, immerse yourself in Linux. Forget Windows. Forget noobs. When you learn Mint well enough to help others then just give them the help they need. If you want to develop your own distro geared just for Windows noobs and designed to drive Windows out of business then go for it! Heck, I will even try it out and as long as it is good and not dumbed down I may even use it!

Let me tell you something Nick; all complaints ARE listened to. The fact that the complainer usually does not understand what they are talking about does not matter. I have a feeling Clem and his team do pay attention to everyone and consider all that is posted. I have seen community driven changes happen the very next distro. Do yourself a favor Nick, take Fred's advice.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun May 23, 2010 10:36 pm

I am sorry I brought it up. I had never even heard about Mint, at least not in any depth, until last month. I came here from Ubuntu, and while I am not much of a programmer or even command line guy, I have comparatively more familiarity with Ubuntu than with Mint. Ubuntu was revolutionary for me in that it was geared towards the average joe, not only in America but even in third world countries where affording Windows isnt a "choice" or 'just another option' or 'personal preference'. Ubuntu is the OS that people who NEED a free operating system can use, and its based on linux which is awesome....its not just the OS for people who can play with as a hoby, a niche crowd for linux to be what it already is....its the OS for people who literally cannot afford Microsoft, for schools who cant afford it, for poorer government agencies to use, and yes its also for business and the founders have both made and saved money from it while keeping it 100% free to use.

I made a lot of assumptions about the Mint community. At a glance, some of the stated positions here sound a bit manufactured to address the debates and criticisms, but again confused do I know?


I am a noob and I just got here. Maybe I am not really justified walking in here with such strong opinions before you even know me. I dont know what is on the devs mind. I mostly know Ubuntu, and I was a low level user at that. I saw Mint as an extension of Ubuntu, like a side project or community project within Ubuntu rather than something radically different. I assumed that Mint shared a lot of the same values and goals...."Mint....the Ubuntu that should have been"....What kind of conclusion is somebody supposed to come to other than it sharing the same core values only from what people are saying its even easier to use and an even better choice for people coming from windows......But apparently I am way off base, and people are downright offended if you suggest that Mint shares Ubuntus desire to expand and compete with Windows to be mainstream rather than a niche...I never said copy, or make it just like windows only free, but have a shallow learning curve for people coming from the most popular system....because its the cultural background that defines the reality of how most people are going to react.

I was way off base and I apologize if I offended anyone....I still feel like people overlooked my valid points and reworded my arguments into something i didnt quite say, but I really shouldnt come here as a noob and start telling people whats what, so as far as that goes I apologize.'


Community aside, I hope you dont mind if I stick around. I really like the changes Mint made and I feel like I found a distro which actually is easier to use than Windows....something which was not the case when I was experimenting with Red Hat and Mandrake back in 2000. It was harder, and not just because I was cripled by my windows background. It was harder. When I hear arguments like the OP, I figure they are talking about defending the difficulty level of Slackware and old school Red Hat back in the 1990s rather than defending the difficulty of modern Ubuntu and mint....and I dont disagree that its valid for THEM to not care what others think or want as long as the people who like it can enjoy it.....Ubuntu philosophy is different though as it DOES want our market base and it does supposedly care about what people coming from windows and mac think......people who can afford a mac usually use Mac OS...I would....but yeah, Ubuntu changed the rules along with a few others and they are now the third largest OS in the world after MS and Mac with an estimated 13 million users, possibly as much as 10 million in the US 'that we know of'.....its huge. 1 in 30 people use Ubuntu, so when you subtract children who are not counted or households or figure that not every US citizen is a computer user.....Ubuntu HAS encroached on Windows. Dell is even selling laptops without windows because of Ubuntu.....and that isnt including the offshoots.



Anyway, I apologize for coming here with my preconceived ideas and thinking you were an extension of Ubuntu. I might not agree with everything that was said, but i still feel that this is one of the most user friendly versions of linux around and a great choice for people migrating from windows whether that was the devs intention or not.....maybe he deliberately ignored the cultural significance of the skill sets used common to society because of windows....not being sarcastic here....maybe if it was intuitive enough then that would be irrelevant. I have no idea.

So sorry about that. I think I will shut up for a while and just learn.


On a side note, I was following that controversy about the devs here being against the Israeli invasion of Palestine....It really won my respect and i assumed he was a fellow activist. My girlfriend who is a Buddhist/Quaker comes from a jewish family, but they are ultra progressive reform Jews and and dont much care for whats happening with US and Israeli foreign policy either. I really appreciate that he used this forum as an outlet to speak his truth, stating that he didnt want the war mongers on his team or even using Mint at all.....it was a bold move but I have a lot of respect for it. Overall I like what the devs here are about, at least as far as the things that matter, and competing with windows or not....this is the distro that could do it.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Kaye on Sun May 23, 2010 10:42 pm

Anyone is always allowed to stick around and learn. Compared to much of what we see you haven't been rude or said anything ridiculous. For the most part this remained a surprisingly civil discussion.

Welcome to Mint, and good luck.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Mon May 24, 2010 6:07 am

Again, I am a noob, so I dont want to come here and tell you whats what.....Also, I am fairly drugged. I was a martial athlete before I was struck with not one but two auto-immune disorders....I am prescribed high doses of opiates and nootropics to give me energy.....so I might run the gambit from slightly dazed to spun and talkative. I spend most of my time on computers these days, which is also how I support my family...e-commerce.


Just throwing this out here......Maybe the defensiveness to topics like this has to do with the users who come to the forums to talk **** about why Linux will never make it and how it isnt windows....So whats the opposite response?

'We dont need to be windows', 'we dont need your approval', 'if you dont like it nobody is twisting your arm to stay', 'we are not doing this for you we are doing it for ourselves', 'if you dont get it then you have the problem not us', 'we dont want your kind anyway'.

It just seems like these attitudes are born at least slightly from defensiveness. Its not the people who respectfully want to learn or have constructive suggestions for improvement who created these attitudes.....its the trolls who heckled linux, or the users who actually got angry with developers for not making their OS perfect for all their windows born needs free of charge and also answer their questions and fix their problems NOW. I can totally understand that.


Still, i find it hard to believe that somebody who would devote this much effort wouldnt want to see their software flourish. Based on my limited knowledge, the early linux developers, or at least GNU, seemed to be idealists even more than hobbyists. They had a philosophy that software should be free and that the linux model was capable of better results....It doesnt seem likely to me that they would feel that this only applied to a small clique of people smart enough to be developers and hackers....It seems more likely that they really wanted to see their ideas take off and get recognition, and maybe even change society for the better.


I am not a dev, but I would definitely not want to copy windows. There are a lot of things that suck about windows that should not be copied. hardware and software support also doesnt exist because Windows is superior....it exists because of the flow of capital and because they created a really catchy and useful product at one time but then aggressively cornered the market to shut everyone else out in a fashion that some of us find highly unethical....not just a different approach, but a way that really kind of sucks....at least in some peoples opinion. Mac has maybe been a little better, but not perfect either. At least i enjoy their native software and OS a bit more outside of gaming.


Without trying to copy Windows, I do think Windows is culturally relevant. If 70%+ of new users are coming from windows, and the rest either introduced into linux from the start or coming from Mac maybe....If they want windows only free they should probably just pirate windows...but still, I dont think you should completely 100% ignore the culturally relevant skill set that permeates our society. People want support for the platforms that were built for windows (You have done that). People want their office suite to be compatible with Word (its been done). People want drivers for their hardware...this has drastically improved. People dont want to use code to install programs.....Suse invented a decent installer earlier last decade, but it still wasnt as simple as the "install" buttons in windows for a while.....but now thanks to Debian and Ubuntu and its offshoots we can download everything directly from a mind boggling shopping cart of free software, and even emulating to run non native software is getting practical for the average user. Its really happening, but this is the stuff that was being complained about.

The interface absolutely should be different...and I think Linux has evolved to the point where they are actually doing it better.....maybe they always were from a developers perspective, but just recently they are from a non-geek perspective, and Mint is one of the most polished forms of this new highly evolved form of end user PC linux for your average working class joe.


I think you did a great job and should be proud of yourselves.....but I dont think you would be where you are today if you completely rejected the point and click newcomers....not that you should encourage a learning curve that just tops out and flatlines like windows does for most users, but the very early steps dont need to be quite as harsh as linux has traditionally been for basic multi-media and social networking functions. Some catering to the LCD is good and ends up helping everyone due to their market base. Expanding the market base is a good thing for society and for linux users, and i also think that Ubuntu and Mint are very close to becoming a major competitor if they are not already....there is just a few things left, like winning over some proprietary game developers, getting some additional hardware support (and gyachhe finally cracked webcams even for yahoo), and maybe improving the development tools so that GUIs can be made more easily by anyone who can write the commands. I think you are right on the verge of getting the recognition you deserve if just a few more things move in your favor to tip the scales. It wasnt until very recently that I started seeing a plethora of windows users start blogging about how they made the switch for good finally, and i started seeing Mint come up more and more.


You did a great job and its really not hard to use anymore. The hardware and software development will come from the outside as you become more recognized (Ubuntu and Mint and family combined).

When you go from 400k to 900k in less than 6 months, that kind of growth is probably going somewhere. I am feeling more optimistic than I ever have about this before. I think some of the biggest stumbling blocks for Ubuntu (which is awesome) have been addressed by Mint. So seriously, keep up the good work, and I am inspired to go a little deeper than I was before....its starting to feel more accessible.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby FedoraRefugee on Mon May 24, 2010 6:10 am

Nick_Djinn wrote:...Community aside, I hope you dont mind if I stick around. I really like the changes Mint made and I feel like I found a distro which actually is easier to use than Windows....something which was not the case when I was experimenting with Red Hat and Mandrake back in 2000. It was harder, and not just because I was cripled by my windows background. It was harder. When I hear arguments like the OP, I figure they are talking about defending the difficulty level of Slackware and old school Red Hat back in the 1990s rather than defending the difficulty of modern Ubuntu and mint....and I dont disagree that its valid for THEM to not care what others think or want as long as the people who like it can enjoy it.....Ubuntu philosophy is different though as it DOES want our market base and it does supposedly care about what people coming from windows and mac think......people who can afford a mac usually use Mac OS...I would....but yeah, Ubuntu changed the rules along with a few others and they are now the third largest OS in the world after MS and Mac with an estimated 13 million users, possibly as much as 10 million in the US 'that we know of'.....its huge. 1 in 30 people use Ubuntu, so when you subtract children who are not counted or households or figure that not every US citizen is a computer user.....Ubuntu HAS encroached on Windows. Dell is even selling laptops without windows because of Ubuntu.....and that isnt including the offshoots.


I wonder where you got those numbers? Ubuntu has no solid numbers for their user base. However, Fedora does!

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics

TOTAL UNIQUE IPs: 21,676,499


Of course you have those who only try the distro, update once and dump it. But, to counter that you have single IPs with multiple installs of Fedora. So, it is a recognized wild assed guess to say 14 million Fedora users. And those numbers are much harder than anything you will come up with for Ubuntu.

So sorry about that. I think I will shut up for a while and just learn.


On a side note, I was following that controversy about the devs here being against the Israeli invasion of Palestine....It really won my respect and i assumed he was a fellow activist. My girlfriend who is a Buddhist/Quaker comes from a jewish family, but they are ultra progressive reform Jews and and dont much care for whats happening with US and Israeli foreign policy either. I really appreciate that he used this forum as an outlet to speak his truth, stating that he didnt want the war mongers on his team or even using Mint at all.....it was a bold move but I have a lot of respect for it. Overall I like what the devs here are about, at least as far as the things that matter, and competing with windows or not....this is the distro that could do it.


You should have taken your own advice BEFORE you posted this ignorant dribble! :twisted:

At best this was a mistake from the past that is best left in the past. There is NO ROOM in a this Linux distro for political statements.

edit: I want to clarify my last point. Clem has apologized for the statement and has himself recognized that Mint is not to be a political tool. He created this distro for everyone, and there are many who use it who support the Jewish side of this. It is irrelevant what you or I think, Mint is available to both of us. It is a Linux distro, no more, no less. And to show you that I live by my own advice I will let you see this:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=47823

Even as an evangelical Christian I would be very unhappy to see any type of Bible program set as default. Mint is not a Christian, Buddhist, Palestinian, or satanic distro. It is Linux. Stop. That is it. You are more than welcome to your opinion, just keep it away from the distro.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby snodgrss1984 on Wed May 26, 2010 2:39 pm

i see having both best
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Ethnmad on Fri May 28, 2010 8:15 am

thanks for not being one sided, i reconsidered on using Linux now because it has some feature that windows doesn't have :D
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby SweetGreen on Fri May 28, 2010 3:54 pm

My only beef with linux is the fact that the game support is minimal for the newer stuff. I know there is Caldera and all but its always behind. I keep windows for the latest games only. I love linux as a platform for the computer.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby kwevej on Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:16 pm

Sorry ppl, but what's the sense of this discussion?
Aren't u just wasting your time?
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby vincent on Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:44 pm

Nothing wrong with a healthy, informative discussion, I'd say. That's just my opinion though.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby nixnine on Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:21 pm

"Linux is not Windows."

I give thanks for that.

I bought a new computer October of last year. It came with Vista Premium, free upgrade to 7 if I wanted. Well, by January I had begun trying out several Linux distros, must have tried a dozen different ones. I began the switch with ArtistX dual booting, then moved to PSLinuxOS2010, then to Mint 8. I finally closed all windows when Mint 9 came out.

Reading all these postings made me realize why I wanted -- needed -- to switch: After years of using Windows and tolerating its idiosyncrasies . . . I had finally matured.

Do I have problems with the system at times? You bet. And I love every bit of it. Are there things which bother me about the system? You bet. But I love looking for the solution to change these things. Are there improvements which can be made? You bet. And I know they will be made. I love Linux. Keeps the mind going. Which if I've understood well, is a great deterrent to Alzheimer's. :P

Keeping it real.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Dave68 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:10 am

Please don't hammer me.

I truly realize that Linux is not Windows, and although this Post has been around for quite awhile, I only came across it in the past few days. Since it has been a slow week thus far, I have managed to read every comment (Not something I get to do very often) and have enjoyed it.

@Fred: You are a wealth of information, and your replies are very clear and concise. I have learned more about Linux in the past few days than I expected to in the next year, and most of that thanks to you. Keep up the good work. (I wonder if I could actually Search for a complete collection of Comments by Fred?) You should take up pen and paper and write a book. If you have already done this, where can I get a copy?

Back to the Discussion at hand:
I have been hearing about Linux and Ubuntu for quite sometime. My kids have older PC's and I'm not ready to purchase them new ones right yet. Knowing that XP Support was ending in July, I started looking for a Distro not equivilant to Windows, but somewhat similar, to place on their older systems (I dual boot Windows 7 and Mint Currently on my 4 year old Desktop, but spend more time in Mint. I leave Windows 7 in for my wife.). Their Primary concerns are Webkinz and You Tube, although they do play several other online games.

No major undertakings here, and Ubuntu 10.04 seemed a good alternative for them. (Xubuntu 10.04 actually, as when we changed the resolution from the default 800x600 to 1024x768 in Ubuntu, the cursor disappeared from my daughters Compaq. This doesn't happen in Xubuntu for some reason, although the same thing happened in Mint 9. I'll scour the forum for a solution another time). To say the least, I jumped right in with both feet, and although I have some issues with their current configurations, I am more than willing to do the Research for a Solution.

I don't play a lot of games personnaly,so Windows is no great loss from my point of view. My Job is CAD and Technical Illustration. At work I use CorelDraw Graphics Suite, AutoCAD and Catia. Prior to my delve into the World that is Linux, I used OpenSource or Free Alternatives (Paint.Net (Now replaced with GIMP), Inkscape (Which, in some aspects, is better that Corel Draw or Illustrator) and ProgeCAD Smart (Not AutoCAD, but very functional if anyone is interested (May be Windows based, but Archemedes will more than likely fit the bill in Linux).

I guess I am one of the fortunate ones. My endeavor into Linux has been a rewarding experiance, and one that I will not be giving up soon. Afer install it just, pretty much, worked. Is there a learning curve? Yes, but there is a great resource in this forum. Links to other resources would be very much appreciated.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby vincent on Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:13 pm

Dave68 wrote:...Knowing that XP Support was ending in July...


Partly correct. Windows XP SP2 support is indeed ending this year in mid-July, but Windows XP SP3 support will continue all the way to April 2014 (along with IE6...urgh). But I guess that's not really all that important to you at this point. :P
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