Too bad we don't have another base

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Too bad we don't have another base

Postby akshunj on Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:34 pm

I sooo wish we had a more stable base for Mint to build on. I've recently been waxing nostalgic about Slackware Even though it took me eight hours to customize it for my desktop, and let's not even talk about available packages or compiling software from source. But those releases were so bug-free, it was awesome! Too bad...
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Re: Too bad we don't have another base

Postby scorp123 on Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:53 pm

akshunj wrote: I sooo wish we had a more stable base for Mint to build on.
Sorry, I fail to see the sense behind your posting. Nobody forces you to use Mint. And you are free to create your own distro if you think you'd do a better job. No pun intended. It's a fact. Anyone can do it.

akshunj wrote: let's not even talk about available packages or compiling software from source.
Available packages? Nothing beats Debian in that regard. :lol: And compiling software from source?? Why oh why would you want to do that if you have a nice package manager? But even if: Then I'd rather go for Gentoo or something like it, and not Slackware.

As I said above: Nobody forces you to use Mint. And if you would like to see it improve: Well, I think clem would be happy to hear constructive criticism and bug reports so he can improve his 'one-man-show' distro. But you're just as free to move on. Linux is about freedom of choice. :wink:
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Postby bigbearomaha on Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:55 pm

I've seen suggestions of using debian itself as a base for Mint. not a bad idea really. but , Mint works fine the way it is, why reinvent the wheel?

when it comes to Slack or gentoo though, i am 100% with Scorp the bunnykiller there. it would almost be going backwards.

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Postby frank392 on Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:02 pm

on one of my computer I use Debian and never had a crash on the other one I'm using Ubuntu, minor incidents. I wish I could say the same about Mint. but we are getting there we shall not loose faith.
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problems with mint?

Postby dracorX on Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:06 am

Hi

I have already used some douzens of distris, including - but not limited to - redhat and fedora, suse and open suse, debian, kubuntu, pclinus os etc...

I can say that I use my PC a lot. and with mint, I didn't have much of a problem since the beginning. OK at the start, I had to restart network after reboot (wlan router far away, so stimes dhcp failed) but since having changed to fix IP, i had no probs yet.

It would be interesting to hear what problems you face? perhaps we can help? ps: I use cassandra KDE
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Postby clem on Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:46 am

Debian is faster, more stable and it follows a continuous path (I'm talking about Debian Testing of course). This makes it a better base than Ubuntu.

Having said that, Ubuntu is one of the most active distributions and also one of the most innovative ones, we're getting two very important advantages from them:

- Great documentation / community (although this is also true for Debian)
- A lot of innovations and added-value

The same way we add to Ubuntu and develop our innovative ideas, Ubuntu does with Debian. Look at each Mint release... half of the new features come from us and the other half come from Ubuntu.

We could base Mint on Debian, technically this would be ok. It would probably make Mint more stable, easier to upgrade and faster to run... but we'd be missing out on the fabulous work made by Ubuntu and if we wanted to integrate their innovations then we may as well base on top of them rather than on top of Debian.

It's a very interesting debate and there are pros and cons on both sides. There's no plan to rebase Mint though. Ubuntu is indeed getting more and more stable and faster and faster. If it lags a bit or gets a bit unstable, that's simply the price we're paying for the great innovations. As their LTS release is coming closer and closer, their distribution will become more and more stable.

We could produce a debian-based release (actually I'm interested in a fedora-based release as well) just as a prototype to prove to ourselves we can add our innovations and vision to any kind of base and make a Mint desktop out of something else than Ubuntu, but that would require work, and it would only satisfy our curiosity... so it's definitely not a priority.

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Postby frank392 on Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:25 am

Thank you Clem, That was a very nice Post!, and thank you very much for all your hard work.

Clem wrote:
We could base Mint on Debian, technically this would be ok. It would probably make Mint more stable, easier to upgrade and faster to run...

isn't this what we all want? :?
just kidding what ever you decide is perfect. thank you

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Postby GrayWizardLinux on Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:00 pm

As an absolute neophyte - I am so pleased at what Mint has to offer as opposed to all other distros it should remain as it is - Mint! and it seems more stable than anything else I have seen so far in the Linux or windoze world.

Just my 1/100% of 2 cents!
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Postby exploder on Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:48 pm

I have Ubuntu Gutsy beta, fully updated on one of my spare drives. It is totally awesome! The new features; perfect looking fonts, fast user switching, screen flicker on shutdown fixed, Compize-Fusion, new desktop effects tab in "Appearance", on demand codecs, automatic printer configuration, and the list goes on!

For the first time ever my display was set up perfect! I am completely satisfied with Linux Mint using Ubuntu for it's base.
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Postby linuxviolin on Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:41 am

Clem wrote:We could base Mint on Debian, technically this would be ok. It would probably make Mint more stable, easier to upgrade and faster to run...

Yes. It is often better to use the original rather than derivatives… :lol:

Clem wrote:but we'd be missing out on the fabulous work made by Ubuntu and if we wanted to integrate their innovations

hmm they also brought bugs... :roll: Debian is a less buggy base and more stable etc

Clem wrote:As their LTS release is coming closer and closer, their distribution will become more and more stable.

I hope really but their last LTS release was not successful (and I am nice)

Clem wrote:actually I'm interested in a fedora-based release as well

hmm a Debian-based release, good, but Fedora... :shock: Why not use rather a Red Hat clone like Scientific? Also a Slackware-based release would be interesting. :D

Clem wrote:It's a very interesting debate

Yes definitively :lol:
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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Postby clem on Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:23 am

Also a Slackware-based release would be interesting.


Well maybe, but if we were to maintain our own packages from scratch then why use a base at all?

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Postby frank392 on Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:44 am

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Re: Too bad we don't have another base

Postby akshunj on Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:13 am

scorp123 wrote:
akshunj wrote: I sooo wish we had a more stable base for Mint to build on.
Sorry, I fail to see the sense behind your posting. Nobody forces you to use Mint. And you are free to create your own distro if you think you'd do a better job. No pun intended. It's a fact. Anyone can do it.

akshunj wrote: let's not even talk about available packages or compiling software from source.
Available packages? Nothing beats Debian in that regard. :lol: And compiling software from source?? Why oh why would you want to do that if you have a nice package manager? But even if: Then I'd rather go for Gentoo or something like it, and not Slackware.

As I said above: Nobody forces you to use Mint. And if you would like to see it improve: Well, I think clem would be happy to hear constructive criticism and bug reports so he can improve his 'one-man-show' distro. But you're just as free to move on. Linux is about freedom of choice. :wink:


First of all, you took the tone of my message ALL wrong. Perhaps that's my bad.

1. I was just sort of openly venting about some of the bugs that end up in final Ubuntu releases. I have a Google notebook FULL of Ubuntu bugs. Issues with HAL and USB device unmounting, sound/acpi conflicts, and other items that are EASILY fixed, but somehow make it into the final product. I'm NOT criticizing Mint, just the base it's built on. Slackware releases once a year and is EXTREMELY stable and not plagued by those little......issues.

2. I was certainly NOT extolling the virtues of available Slackware packages or compiling from source. I was remembering this as one of the NEGATIVES about the distro.

3. And finally, Scorp, lay off with the "you're free to move on" and "nobody forces you to use Mint" talk. That's seriously LAME. You sound as if no one can say anything critical about Mint (even though I was not). I picked a generalized forum to get some PURELY hypothetical dialog going about the virtues of Ubuntu as a base. Nothing more. Sorry if I sound irritated, but when people talk like that, it sounds the same as when intolerant Americans say, "If you don't like this country, you're free to leave it..." As fans of free software, we need to be able to freely discuss ideas and concepts without someone recommending you "move on" because your idea is too radical. C'mon guys, it's all in the spirit of debate...
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Postby akshunj on Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:26 am

clem wrote:
Also a Slackware-based release would be interesting.


Well maybe, but if we were to maintain our own packages from scratch then why use a base at all?

Clem


I am really interested in the concept of Mint maintaining it's own packages. I know PCLinuxOS does this (although most of them are from Mandriva). The challenge would be maintaining compatibility with Ubuntu.

The only reason I brought up Slackware is because of it's stability. You're right when you say it's a trade-off for innovation. I just wish there was a more comfortable middle-ground. And I'm not sure that middle-ground is Debian. Ubuntu's popularity makes it a de-facto standard, and that makes life easy for Mint-ers. The latest packages are available, the community is HUGE, and there's new technology in every release. At the end of the day, those are tough points to argue with.

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Postby clem on Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:38 am

I am really interested in the concept of Mint maintaining it's own packages.


Me too, but that means having people working full time on it. There's absolutely no way we could maintain our own package base and compete with projects like Debian, Ubuntu or even the RPM based distros by just doing this in our spare time.... we can develop tools and make the desktop better, no problem... but maintaining our own pools of packages, hosting them, taking the load... paying for that kind of hosting, we're talking company, employees here... kind of $150/day per employee when we really get about $500/month...

.. we're far from it.

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Postby GrayWizardLinux on Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:45 am

I have said this before and I am not trying to make this a broken record.... But Mint and specifically Celena has been stable, a breath of fresh air and is the best so far as far as i am concerned. I am deeply Impressed. A hell of a lot better than Ubuntu's stuff! Clem has done incredible work!

I know this is a discussion; but this is the best thing out there in linux land for a newbie.

I am very happy!
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Re: Too bad we don't have another base

Postby scorp123 on Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:05 pm

akshunj wrote: 3. And finally, Scorp, lay off with the "you're free to move on" and "nobody forces you to use Mint" talk. That's seriously LAME.
Whether you like it or not, it's the pure truth :lol: And no, I am not going to change that. :twisted:

And last but not least: I just did the same with SUSE which I had used since 1996. But since 9.2 and especially 10.0 and 10.1 and last but not least 10.2 it sucked so much that I did exactly what I told you: I moved on. So far I haven't seen any Novell guys pointing a gun at my head (they are welcome to try if they dare ...). This is what Linux is about: Freedom of choice. You seriously don't like a distro and you can't bother to help improving it? Move on then. Nobody is holding you back. On the other hand: if you want to see things improve you're more than welcome to stay around and actually help. Are you good at solving tech issues? Husse and myself would more than welcome more guys helping us out with all the many questions we get every day.

akshunj wrote: You sound as if no one can say anything critical about Mint (even though I was not).
See above. Constructive criticism is surely welcome. But your posting up there was pretty much a rant of some sorts and quite honestly: I was so damn close to delete it ... :twisted:

akshunj wrote: C'mon guys, it's all in the spirit of debate...
Yes, I think we all understand that now. Nice job there kicking off this debate 8)
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Re: Too bad we don't have another base

Postby akshunj on Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:29 pm

scorp123 wrote:On the other hand: if you want to see things improve you're more than welcome to stay around and actually help. Are you good at solving tech issues? Husse and myself would more than welcome more guys helping us out with all the many questions we get every day.


Oh Jeez, dude. I help out where I can, and I donate. I have already linked to my notebook with about 10 or 11 Ubuntu Feisty bug fixes in it. Clearly, I want to do what I can to help the distro. I'd give blood if I could...

scorp123 wrote:Constructive criticism is surely welcome. But your posting up there was pretty much a rant of some sorts and quite honestly: I was so damn close to delete it ... :twisted:


Ah, good old fashioned censorship. Glad to see it's alive and well in the FOSS community. Seriously, dude... :roll:

scorp123 wrote: Yes, I think we all understand that now. Nice job there kicking off this debate


Thanks. Again, this was only "speculative debate". Take a deep breath. There's only Minty love here...
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Postby akshunj on Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:51 pm

clem wrote:Me too, but that means having people working full time on it. There's absolutely no way we could maintain our own package base and compete with projects like Debian, Ubuntu or even the RPM based distros by just doing this in our spare time.... we can develop tools and make the desktop better, no problem... but maintaining our own pools of packages, hosting them, taking the load... paying for that kind of hosting, we're talking company, employees here... kind of $150/day per employee when we really get about $500/month...

.. we're far from it.

Clem


I know. I know. It's a cool dream though, right?

I still think we can do more with a pool of Mint packages on top of the standard Ubuntu stuff. Yes, I know it sounds like Mint on top of Ubuntu, on top of Debian. But that's essentially what PCLinuxOS is doing. That base is pure Mandriva in terms of packages. And I think Mepis has a core number of Mepis-specific packages. But now that I'm thinking about it, Mint sort of does this already, right? With the software repository? I'm sure you have a vision for what that repository should look like. I'll shut up now... :oops:

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Postby linuxviolin on Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:09 am

Clem wrote:Well maybe, but if we were to maintain our own packages from scratch then why use a base at all?

A Mint distro from scratch? A real new distro without base? That should be the ideal! :lol:

clem wrote:There's absolutely no way we could maintain our own package base and compete with projects like Debian, Ubuntu or even the RPM based distros by just doing this in our spare time.... we can develop tools and make the desktop better, no problem... but maintaining our own pools of packages, hosting them, taking the load... paying for that kind of hosting, we're talking company, employees here... kind of $150/day per employee when we really get about $500/month...

.. we're far from it.


OK but now the great philosophical question: Mint must it really seek "compete with projects like Debian, Ubuntu or even the RPM based distros"? :roll:

It's some food for thinking... :D
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