Call Me Old School

[KBD47]

I thought I might find some compadres here at Mint sympathetic to my view about Linux desktops. I recently wrote on my blog about being "old school" regarding Linux desktops:
http://kbd-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.com ... chool.html
KBD47

[xenopeek]

Well, your position is clear I'm stuck to the Windows 95 way of working... Been doing that for too long (panel at bottom, menu button, open windows list), so transition to Linux with GNOME 2.x was very easy. I'm yet to make the time to install Lisa RC, but having run Fedora 15 previously with GNOME 3 Shell and Ubuntu 11.04 with Unity, I fully agree with your sentiments on old school.

Still, I do want to "get with the times" and keep adapting to modern developments, but I'm not looking forward to it Just a hurdle I have to cross... I'm excited about the extensions Linux Mint is bringing, and the promise of MATE.

[lmintnewb]

lol ... read a book ?!!! Are you MADDDDD man. Do they even still make those paper things anymore ?

Actually like the blog post you made. Now will air my feelings in my usual babbling often pointless style. Don't really get the new desktop direction it seems some big players are taking either. But they do, you can be sure of that. Micro$oft may be sleazeball corp scumbags of epic proportions. But in general they aren't stupid scumbags of epic proportions. Same for the people behind gnome and even canonical ( or as I like to think of them, the aspiring M$ of the gnu/Linux world, lol.) no doubt has a few braincells between them.

Guessing it's tied with the wave of progress that's moving tech towards handhelds and mobile. They want in on it obviously and are trying to put themselves in a good spot in line to get ahead of the trend. They have an eye towards the future and the users of the future. That makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is all the tears and wringing of hands around the interwebs among Linux users over it. Ok gnome isn't to x persons tastes anymore, as always w gnu/nix, one of it's many wonders. You have no shortage of other choices and options. Don't like unity, gnome3, etc. USE SOMETHING ELSE. Not like the Linux desktop revolves around what gnome happens to be doing. Myself have come to much prefer openbox and windows managers and do try to stay away from having to resort to mouse/point/click whenever possible anymore.

Whatever gnome and unity decide to do, Linux users everywhere can rest assured THEY WILL ALWAYS HAVE MORE THAN A FEW OTHER OPTIONS. Yet another of the amazing things about Linux da crown jewel of opensource software. We have choices, freedom and options. For those poor folks hooked on Windows 8 ... Nope, they're stuck with what M$ deems to give em. Well unless they pony up for a Mac ... Or wise up and give Linux a try.

End pointless rambling:

[linuxviolin]

I thought I might find some compadres here at Mint sympathetic to my view about Linux desktops. I recently wrote on my blog about being "old school" regarding Linux desktops:
http://kbd-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.com ... chool.html
KBD47

Just two comments:

1. Android is not Linux even if it is based on a Linux kernel.

2. About Windows 8, big tiles won't replace icons, except for tablet/phone (Metro-style, not "classical") apps, and apps/links you want to put *there*. Once you open a classical-style app, you can see the Desktop, taskbar, etc. Also, this is an Alpha version of Win8.
I'm pretty sure those tile won't be a mandatory default except on tablets or anything with touchscreen. Win8 is not released yet.

[KBD47]

Well, your position is clear I'm stuck to the Windows 95 way of working... Been doing that for too long (panel at bottom, menu button, open windows list), so transition to Linux with GNOME 2.x was very easy. I'm yet to make the time to install Lisa RC, but having run Fedora 15 previously with GNOME 3 Shell and Ubuntu 11.04 with Unity, I fully agree with your sentiments on old school.

Still, I do want to "get with the times" and keep adapting to modern developments, but I'm not looking forward to it Just a hurdle I have to cross... I'm excited about the extensions Linux Mint is bringing, and the promise of MATE.

I actually gave Ubuntu Unity 2 months (man I want those two months back) and I tried Gnome 3 in Fedora 15, Ubuntu 11.10, and now in Mint MGSE. I really dislike Gnome 3, and Unity seems ridiculous for anything beyond surfing the web. But as you say, I think I made my position clear
KBD47

[KBD47]

lol ... read a book ?!!! Are you MADDDDD man. Do they even still make those paper things anymore ?

Yeah, I really should read more books

[KBD47]

Just two comments:

1. Android is not Linux even if it is based on a Linux kernel.

2. About Windows 8, big tiles won't replace icons, except for tablet/phone (Metro-style, not "classical") apps, and apps/links you want to put *there*. Once you open a classical-style app, you can see the Desktop, taskbar, etc. Also, this is an Alpha version of Win8.
I'm pretty sure those tile won't be a mandatory default except on tablets or anything with touchscreen. Win8 is not released yet.

Well, the fight has already begun:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/window ... -out/19307
If they are smart they won't default desktops to that ugly blocky interface.

[tdockery97]

I thought I might find some compadres here at Mint sympathetic to my view about Linux desktops. I recently wrote on my blog about being "old school" regarding Linux desktops:
http://kbd-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.com ... chool.html
KBD47

Nice blog KBD. I enjoyed some of the other postings as well.

[KBD47]

Nice blog KBD. I enjoyed some of the other postings as well.

Thank you!

[Kilz]

Ok your old school

Now that thats out of the way, let me agree with you on a few points. Unity is the absolute worst interface known to man. It has no flow and is unusable as a means to get things done. Perhaps wanting to get work done is a thing of the past, because Unity gets in the way of doing things. Gnome 3 is a close 2nd on the unusable front, Mint 12 makes it semi usable. Look at Kde, it had a massive overhaul and still was usable.
Now those that will say that I am living on Windows past, think again.

Something can be new and usable. Perhaps in the near future some good work on these desktops will make them more usable. But its going to take a lot of work to do so.

[KBD47]

Ok your old school

Now that thats out of the way, let me agree with you on a few points. Unity is the absolute worst interface known to man. It has no flow and is unusable as a means to get things done. Perhaps wanting to get work done is a thing of the past, because Unity gets in the way of doing things. Gnome 3 is a close 2nd on the unusable front, Mint 12 makes it semi usable. Look at Kde, it had a massive overhaul and still was usable.
Now those that will say that I am living on Windows past, think again.

Something can be new and usable. Perhaps in the near future some good work on these desktops will make them more usable. But its going to take a lot of work to do so.

Well, right now I'm using the Mint 12 RC with the LXDE desktop installed. I think it is a good combo, everything I like about Mint but with a nice, lightweight, and fast GUI.

[nukm]

Your blog article is to the point. Unfortunately, Linux on the desktop is not a "critical" item, as there is no money in it. If Linux was tied to hardware, it might be different. Windows and Apple leave about 1.2% of the desktop traffic to Linux.

However, there will always be a Linux desktop, as long as there is Linux. I personally like these new mindless ventures, since they make Slackware and KDE seem oh so simple. And, you are right - Xubuntu is fine. However, Canonical is dropping synaptic, and the replacements are not satisfactory. Of course, there is APT. The latest Fedora KDE (16) is not too shabby. Note also that there will always be clients for Redhat, so someone will have a desktop that isn't DOA. APT is fine, but I don't have any difficulty with Yum. Or Pisi, for that matter. I'm using Kurumsal 2 a good bit, which is KDE 3.5.

But, there is a certain charm in a distro that requires "startx" to make the pictures appear.

[KBD47]

All of a sudden I'm getting optimistic about MATE:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=86026

[MALsPa]

KBD47, thanks for the link to your blog, looks real good!

I'm "old school" in a lot of ways, too. For example, I don't intend to ever stop reading actual books with real pages made of paper! One of life's pleasures, as far as I'm concerned!

And... no "smart phone" here. Just a simple phone for texting and making calls.

But when it comes to desktop environments and window managers, I like 'em all. I like learning the ins and outs. I'll be using Openbox or Xfce one day, then KDE 4 or GNOME 3 the next. I have no problem using Unity, but I also like using AwesomeWM.

I still have KDE 3.5 on one installation here, and I still have GNOME 2 in Debian Squeeze and in Ubuntu Lucid. But when it comes time to get rid of KDE 3.5 and GNOME 2, I don't think I'll miss 'em at all.

I remember when I first started out with Linux, and the only thing I liked using was KDE. Couldn't get comfortable with the old GNOME at all. I started to play around, installed Xfce and Fluxbox a few times, and that got me more interested in how different DEs and WMs work. Then I went back to GNOME -- and liked it! After that, any DE or WM was cool.

So, I don't know if I'm "old school" when it comes to DEs and WMs. Depends on the day and the mood, I guess!

[KBD47]

Thanks MALsPa!

[mikeeve]

I think you didn't take your old school far enough. It's not just the style of desktops that are old school, desktops themselves are old school, and (unfortunately) I think most users will say good riddance to 'desktops' - both the bulky hardware and the GUI interface. After all, most people didn't really want a computer, they wanted the latest fad. They had no idea now to use 90% of the functionality of their computer. Browsing, email, chat, skype without fuss or hassle is what most people want and that can easily be done on the new devices.

The hardware is evolving away from more or less open systems to the locked down phones, readers, tablets, and cloud computing. The media companies will love it because DRM will be tighter than ever, the hardware manufacturers will love it because locked down systems need less support, and the average user won't care. Applications that aren't built into the hardware will be run from the cloud. As the masses move to the new platforms, it will be very difficult to find new open hardware. If the hardware is available, it will be very expensive because the market is so small and because patents keep out most competition. Open OSes and free software will be tied up in legal battles by both patents and copyright concerns.

Computing, as we know and love it, will not only be old school, it will be dead.

[KBD47]

Thanks mikeeve, I was hoping to run across someone who could be even less cheerful than I am

[wyrdoak]

The desktop is too powerful a piece of equipment for the average citizen to own and it's too difficult to control and censor how it's used.

[rdanner3]

The desktop is too powerful a piece of equipment for the average citizen to own and it's too difficult to control and censor how it's used.

And yet, I worked exclusively with desktop-based (and tower) systems for years, both at home and as a tech. Nowadays, it is mostly laptops, and that's scary for one reason: It is intensely difficult to work on the innards of a laptop without damaging some wire, cable or whatnot in the process. Yes, I have done it, but with great trepidation and following the manufacturer's instruction manual to the letter while it was open beside me.

The proliferation of special bits for screwdrivers (from Torx to T-?? to whatever) is another indication that the manufacturers really don't want a tech to work on laptops and smart phones and the odd MP3 player, and that threatens my business and how I make money directly. I resent that. Can't tell you how much I have spent on special screwdriver sets over the last two years, and some of them don't have all of the needed tips. ARGH! Hurts when you pay $30-50 and it still doesn't help you do the job you needed to buy it for.

For technicians, desktops have one huge advantage over a laptop: They are far easier to work on, hands down. Usually, all you need is two screwdrivers (A #1 and #0 Phillips, although I still occasionally see hexheaded screws with slots) at most. A second advantage is simply the fact that a desktop (tower) system can support better graphics cards than a laptop could dream of. Of course, this comes at a cost: Bigger power draw (sometimes to a ridiculous scale (1.5kW power supply and 3 graphics cards come to mind)), although with the advent of desktops using laptop processors this is less of a concern than it once was. I have far more desktop systems than I could ever use right now; plan on donating most (if not all) of them to a local tech who specializes in restoring machines to usable, along with a pair of memory strips I got stuck with when they didn't fit the client's machine. I refuse to dump computers in the landfill. (CRT monitor = 9 pounds of lead just in the solder. OUCH! Ain't gonna put one of those in the landfill, and I have 3 dead monitors!) Even a laptop contains too much hazardous material to be safely disposed of in that manner.

As for desktops and managers, which is the true point of this thread, well... I have tried KDE (too slow and uses far too many resources, or did when I tried it), Gnome 2.x (snappy, but has its bad points), Gnome 3 (broke almost everything on my setup) and Enlightenment (which doesn't seem to be fully usable; I still can't get the wifi to wake up and see the router, and I can throw a Nerf ball and HIT the dang thing). Of those, I am currently leaning toward Gnome 2.x with Docky, despite the fact I have the feeling there are far better choices out there.

[w2ibc]

old school works. I want my desktop to look like a desktop. I dont own a tablet or spazzy phone. and I do not want my tower or laptop having what unity or G3 calls a desktop on it. if i wanted that look id go buy a damn tablet.

I guess when i can no longer get the desktop I want. ill just turn the machines off. toss them in a box and into storage and just walk away from computers.

also rdanner3 i feel your pain. I used to do pretty good working on computers for people. then china-mart got into the PC game. and well when people price a new machine at china-mart vs paying me to fix the "x" year old machine they have now. china-mart wins (and its with all electronics not just computers)

all electronics are made cheep in china with no quality. its not built to last, and they do not want you or I fixing it. they rather you go buy new when it breaks.