my little rant -- linux, desktops, distros

[MALsPa]

I just feel that, whether you use Mint or Ubuntu or some other distro, nobody's saying that you have to use the default desktop that it ships with. It's Linux, right? As long I can get the distro installed, the default DE is irrelevant. Heck, I use Openbox in Ubuntu 10.04 more than I use GNOME 2; when 12.04 comes out, if I'm not satisfied with Unity or GNOME Shell, well, they've got Xfce and Openbox and others in the repos, right?

If you tie yourself down to one distro or one desktop environment, you're at the mercy of the whims of that distro's (or that DE's) developers. They can't please everyone all the time, and forever. People come to Linux and they expect developers to give each one of them exactly what they want. Can't happen. So they end up getting upset. Who's fault is it? They give us, at no cost to us, all the tools right there at our fingertips to create just about any kind of desktop experience we want to create, but we sit at home and complain about devs "not listening to their users."

#1 at DistroWatch comes and goes. It only seems important to the users of a particular distro -- folks who want to say, "My distro is #1!" But why should anyone care? If you learn to use Linux, does it really matter which distro is #1 at DistroWatch? If you learn to use Linux, almost any distro will do, in the end. Nobody's forcing you to use only one distro.

It's your computer, not the devs' computer. You can do what you want with it. Again, it's Linux, right?

We can either learn to use Linux, learn to take advantage of what's out there, or we can sit there and stew about not being given every little thing we want in Linux distribution. It's still all about choice.

[gsmanners]

People come to Linux and they expect developers to give each one of them exactly what they want. Can't happen. So they end up getting upset.

People get upset because they expect what they had before. In my experience, people don't even notice the developers, and that's why they are shocked and angry. Once that feeling dies down a bit, they realize that Gnome developers are no longer listening to us (the people who actually care about usability) and they become justifiably disappointed.

#1: Since at least 2008 Gnome developers have taken a very alarming attitude toward everyone except themselves, exhibiting destructive groupthink. They have been warned time after time after time what would happen, so this result should not come as a surprise to them. They just became all the more narrow minded, perceived us as the "enemy" and refused to listen. This is failure to communicate.

#2: Gnome developers seem obsessed with eliminating distractions. Okay, why? What purpose does it serve? They claim that it makes you more productive, but where is the proof? If it even did make you more productive, why is that a good thing? How does that serve the purpose of being a general all-purpose desktop environment? Gnome developers answer these questions with sneering silence.

People are right to be upset, and the real solution is simply this: do not use Gnome.

[Screwdriver0815]

my opinion is that something like a desktop environment does not exist for the sake of it´s existance. There must be users for it. So the developers of this DE do their work for their users. Without users, all this effort is a waste.

In Linux, there is an ecosystem, which consists of the developers, companies and the users. If someone develops some software (like a DE, a program... whatever) or a distro, he does it for himself, but also for an audience = the users who might want to use it. Without a goal, all this is a waste.

This ecosystem, I mentioned above, brings things with it, like communities who care about all this. I care about the stuff I use. Lots of other people care about it. Sure, there are people who don´t care and just use it. That´s okay too.

So now we are in a situation where some strange developments happen. Two examples (which are mentioned already):

1. Gnome: Gnome has decided to develop Gnome 3. The result of this is not satisfying for a lot of users. So, now, the user could say "why bother" and use another desktop environment. Or the user, who cares and who cared about the product he used before, might say "this is not right, we need a change". Or the user is happy. All this is okay. The user who critisises the new product has the right to do that. This is something which results off this community thing, mentioned above. Without feedback to the developers, Linux wouldn´t be in this shape as it is now.
So I think, we need such developments like MGSE in Mint 12. We need rankings like Distrowatch. Because otherwise there is no feedback to the developers. If Mint stays on No. 1 with Mint 12, the Gnome dev´s see that people (the users) are not satisfied by Gnome 3 in it's original shape. They then would see, that the users need and want a window oriented desktop and not an application oriented one. They then would see that the workflow, they provide is okay to some users, but the majority needs another one. If the Gnome developers then decide to change something in their product or not, is up to them anyway. But a lot of people will then use extensions and other things which provide the features they need.
With that, there is a chance, that the developers of Gnome realise that what they do is not used as they developed it. Maybe this triggers a change.

2. Unity in Ubuntu and Ubuntu´s new attitude towards their community... they have decided to develop Unity. Fine. Why not. Ubuntu has a huge community and when you look back in time, Ubuntu always was a distro which relied very much on it´s community. Without this community, Ubuntu wouldn´t be as it is now. In this huge community are a lot of people who care about the product. They want to contribute, to help and to work, so that the product, they use is good.
In the last few months, all this seems (to me) to change. A few days ago, I read an article http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Bl ... -and-Unity
about this. Bottom line is that a lot of things, which come from the community, from members who use Ubuntu for many years, be it proposals, patches, whatever are rejected because of "decisions by the design team". The result is, that nearly everything which comes from the users and the community will be rejected. That´s okay. But it is offending towards the users who care. And if you affront your community too much, they will give up and go somewhere else.
But one could say: yes, but Ubuntu wants to sell stuff, so they need customers, not a community.
That´s right. But this community is a huge part of their potencial customers. And they are the ones who spread the word, who acquire new customers.

The best example is Mandriva. They were bankcrupt several times and were also saved by their community. But they also treated their community not very well. Result: a fork named Mageia and a lot of contributers changed to Mageia too. So now, Mandriva is still there. But there is no one who cares about it. Maybe some people... but will this maintain the existance of Mandriva? I doubt it.

So in my eyes it is not about "you get it for free, so please shut up and don´t complain". It is about doing something together.

[MALsPa]

As long as you're comfortable using other distros and DEs, it shouldn't matter all that much what GNOME and Ubuntu do; you can take it or leave it. And that's my main point.

If all I had was GNOME and Ubuntu and I didn't like the directions they're going in, I'd be unhappy, too, and I'd be complaining. Well, I happen to like GNOME Shell and Unity, and I happen to like Ubuntu, but if I didn't, so what? I don't have to use them. Neither does anyone else. And that's really the bottom line. So I guess I fail to see the problem.

[Screwdriver0815]

As long as you're comfortable using other distros and DEs, it shouldn't matter all that much what GNOME and Ubuntu do; you can take it or leave it

and that is it. So you are telling people: it doesn´t matter what you are saying. Just go and leave it. Yeah that is what I also said in my post. That this is okay. And I also guess that the majority of the people do exactly that. There are a lot of people who don´t care. But there are people who actually care. And just because you are one of these who don´t care, the others aren´t allowed to care anymore? They must now leave all the work they have done behind, because this is the only option? Leaving in silence and if the majority leaves, the project dies and all this effort goes down the drain? Why should one leave in silence? Just because some people don´t like to read/hear complaints?

No, the real bottom line is:
You don´t need to read the complaints and you don´t need to listen to them

[monkeyboy]

The GNOME folks do the work and so they get to make the calls. Like it or not like and how you express you pro or con arguments are irrelevant to this basic fact. Enjoy

[Screwdriver0815]

The GNOME folks do the work and so they get to make the calls. Like it or not like and how you express you pro or con arguments are irrelevant to this basic fact. Enjoy

thats right too. But it is no reason for ranting about other people who complain about Gnome 3

[MALsPa]

So you are telling people: it doesn´t matter what you are saying.

No. That is not what I'm telling people at all. Interesting twist on my words, though.

There are a lot of people who don´t care. But there are people who actually care. And just because you are one of these who don´t care, the others aren´t allowed to care anymore?

I am also not saying that I don't care, or that anyone else should not care. I'm just saying that it doesn't bother me, they can't do what they want, because I have other options. If you think you don't have other options, that's your problem.

Leaving in silence and if the majority leaves, the project dies and all this effort goes down the drain?

Please show me some statistics that show that the majority is leaving anything. And, what project is dying? GNOME 2? It's already pretty much dead. R.I.P.

You don´t need to read the complaints and you don´t need to listen to them

Very true. Ever since I started using Linux, one of the constants has been people complaining about this or that. It never ends. No developers can ever make everyone happy, and the complainers are always the most vocal. And you're right, I don't need to listen to the complaints; I don't need to read them. But it's awfully hard to avoid them when they're thrown in your face over and over and over again.

I suggest a solution for the folks who are unhappy with things like GNOME and Ubuntu. Learn to use other DEs, learn to use different WMs, learn to use other distros. Then maybe you won't have so much to complain about.

Your approach is to keep complaining. You go right ahead. "Keep on doing what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten."

[MALsPa]

But it is no reason for ranting about other people who complain about Gnome 3

Go ahead and keep complaining about GNOME 3, then. Whatever makes you happy.

[MALsPa]

But it is no reason for ranting about other people who complain about Gnome 3

I don't quite get the logic that says it's okay for people to endlessly rant and complain about GNOME 3, but it isn't okay for me to rant about their never-ending complaining. On the other hand, I'm about as likely to have any effect on your complaining as you are to have any effect on what the GNOME devs decide to do with their project. I'm sure you believe otherwise, though.

[Screwdriver0815]

But it is no reason for ranting about other people who complain about Gnome 3

Go ahead and keep complaining about GNOME 3, then. Whatever makes you happy.

I never complained about Gnome 3, by the way. I just have my opinion about ranting about these complaints. And I have an opinion about people who just take and don´t care. Who just consume and if it does not fit anymore, then just walk away. Some day, there is no other option left... what then?

[MALsPa]

I just have my opinion about ranting about these complaints. And I have an opinion about people who just take and don´t care. Who just consume and if it does not fit anymore, then just walk away. Some day, there is no other option left... what then?

Who are you to say whether or not someone else is someone who just takes and doesn't care? I have not walked away from anything. Here, I have the following installed, and being used: KDE 3.5, KDE 4, GNOME 2, GNOME Shell, Unity, Fluxbox, Openbox, LXDE, Enlightenment 17, Openbox, AwesomeWM, and Xfce. Okay, does that sound like someone who doesn't care? Does that sound like someone who just walks away? Do you even know what you're talking about?

My point was not to say "just walk away." My point was not to say that someone shouldn't care. I am just trying to say that things look a lot worse if you tie yourself down to one distro or one DE than if you open yourself up and take advantage of the other options out there. If you do that, then you don't have as much to complain about. My point was to say, "Be a Linux user." That means, take advantage of ALL of what Linux has to offer; don't restrict yourself to Ubuntu or GNOME or whatever, or you'll always end up dissatisfied when those devs don't do what you think they should do.

Now, if you don't like my pointing that out, expressing my opinion about that, then that's really too bad. Don't twist my words around to suit whatever it is you want to argue about, and don't assume that you know what kind of Linux user I am, or that I "don't care." Just because I don't agree with you, and I happen to think GNOME Shell and Unity are nice, and that I say that if I didn't like them I'm fine using something else, doesn't mean that I don't care about what happens with Linux. Linux is more than Ubuntu or GNOME Shell or Unity, and if you don't understand that, then you have a lot to learn.

[Screwdriver0815]

Who are you to say whether or not someone else is someone who just takes and doesn't care?

uh? I am not allowed to say that? But you are allowed to say:

Go ahead and keep complaining about GNOME 3, then. Whatever makes you happy.

and another one:

Your approach is to keep complaining. You go right ahead. "Keep on doing what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten."

and this is also quite nice:

I don't quite get the logic that says it's okay for people to endlessly rant and complain about GNOME 3, but it isn't okay for me to rant about their never-ending complaining. On the other hand, I'm about as likely to have any effect on your complaining as you are to have any effect on what the GNOME devs decide to do with their project. I'm sure you believe otherwise, though.

stirring up the pot, right? Ratteling the cage?

I never complained about Gnome 3 and I am not a stupid ranter as you think, as this is what I read from your postings. It´s just written, no emoticons, nothing. So I take it serious and I take it as I understand it. So I am the one who tells you his opinion and how I see you.

My point was not to say "just walk away." My point was not to say that someone shouldn't care. I am just trying to say that things look a lot worse if you tie yourself down to one distro or one DE than if you open yourself up and take advantage of the other options out there. If you do that, then you don't have as much to complain about. My point was to say, "Be a Linux user." That means, take advantage of ALL of what Linux has to offer; don't restrict yourself to Ubuntu or GNOME or whatever, or you'll always end up dissatisfied when those devs don't do what you think they should do.

I am exactly that. Ubuntu? I couldn´t care less. I just see the impact on Linux if it (Ubuntu) goes down the drain. And I think that it is important to think about that. And I also think that it is important to put oneself into the position of the people who really have something to say.
Gnome 3? The same. I use KDE as my main DE. Gnome 2 is just on my Laptop.

That is what I wanted to say. I wanted to say that not all of these critics are bollocks. That one also should think about the consequences. Thats it.