Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

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Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby JohnH on Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:57 am

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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby belovedmonster on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:43 am

"Apple crap" = He doesn't like the the file browser even though he says in general OSX is way better than Vista? Hmm. Saying Apple crap is a bit of a misquote me thinks.

As for his comments about both Apple and Microsoft wanting to control everything. The difference is while Microsoft wants to control everything just for power and money Apple want to control everything because they want to give people the most consistent user experience possible. This is why Apple make their own hardware.

What you have to appreciate is Apple stores have dummy power outlets just so the walls look symmetrical. These are the kind of guys you are dealing with. For them creating elegant designs be it a new laptop or a something as mundane as a new RSS reader gives them a boner. This is all they live for. So when they want to control every step of a computer users experience it's not so Steve Jobs can make another few billion dollars it's so Steve Jobs can get a boner at how zen-like they have made the Mac user experience.

Incidentally this is also the reason why you get the cult of Mac. This obsessive approach to elegance is very infectious to people. Critics will say people just get Macs because they are trendy but it goes so much deeper than that. When people buy into Mac they are buying into a whole design philosophy.

This is why Mac and Linux are both gaining market share at the moment. Microsoft fails to have any philosophy which appeals to people on a deep level. Linux has freedom and openness, Macs have elegance, an appreciate of art, culture and good design, and Microsoft has... urm... nothing!
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby Zwopper on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:46 am

belovedmonster wrote:"Apple crap" = He doesn't like the the file browser even though he says in general OSX is way better than Vista? Hmm. Saying Apple crap is a bit of a misquote me thinks.

As for his comments about both Apple and Microsoft wanting to control everything. The difference is while Microsoft wants to control everything just for power and money Apple want to control everything because they want to give people the most consistent user experience possible. This is why Apple make their own hardware.

Wait a minute here!
Have we read the same articles?
He doesn't say that the file browser is crap, he says that the file system is crap to program for! HUGE difference!
Quote Linus Thorwalds: "I don't think they're equally flawed - I think Leopard is a much better system," he said.
"(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for. Their file system is complete and utter crap, which is scary."
End of quote!

And Apple doesn't want to make money from hardware - RIGHT!
The fact that you even mention the Zen 8ULL5h17 is only prof that you bought the myth as well!
OS X is perfectly capable of running on almost any ordinary PC, the ONLY reason why Apple won't release an "ordinary" x86 version of OS X is simple:
Who in their right mind would by hardware for twice the money just to run their favorite OS? - No one!
I do appreciate that Apple make beautifully designs, and that the Mac Mini is cheaper than most PC's considering it's size and that fact that it's really quiet, BUT...
If you're after price/performance in general, a PC is the winner almost every time.

Don't get me wrong here, there are lot's of things I like about OS X Leopard, Time Machine for instance, now that's how a backup GUI for everyday users SHOULD look!
And YES iPod rule the mp3-world, and the list could go on...
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby belovedmonster on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:09 am

Sorry I misread :-P he said file system you are right.

But don't tell me I've bought into the myth. Frankly it's very patronising for you to suggest that I, as a grown adult with an above average intelligent I am somehow misled. Instead you should be using your "Choice is good" attitude as a Linux user to accept that people have differing opinions and my opinion is that Apple has a philosophy that is genuine, and is appealing to people. :wink: :wink:

As for the other points you mentioned... Apple doesn't release their software for other systems because they are a hardware manufacturer. This is why they sell an iPhone rather than a mobile OS like Microsoft do. Microsoft and Apple are two completely different sorts of companies. Back in the day Microsoft used to be one of the big software developers for Apple Computers because Apple was and has always been a hardware company first and Microsoft has always been software.

People don't seem to appreciate this when they make out like Apple is being greedy by forcing you to buy their hardware in order to use their software. That's the whole point! They are a hardware company!!! This is no different from Nintendo keeping Mario on their own hardware so they can sell more consoles. They could release Mario on the Playstation and makes millions doing it, but Nintendo are ultimately a hardware company.

Is Apple hardware expensive? Not if you compare it to similar hardware. Problem is most people dont do that. Sure you can get a Dell notebook with the same specs for less, but will it be as thin, and will it run in total silence like the Mac, will the speakers sound as good as the Mac, will the screen have been professionally calibrated to the same accuracy for professional photographers and the like? People just look at the raw numbers of the CPU and the Memory and not much else. For some people thats enough, but other people are prepared to pay a little more for those extra details. Plus, lets not forget, some people are willing to pay a premium for OSX and iLife.

If I sound like I'm defending Apple I should point out that I dont own a Mac and that my most used OS is Windows XP. :wink:
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby Zwopper on Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:41 am

...and I quote myself:
Zwopper wrote:And Apple doesn't want to make money from hardware - RIGHT!

I second your opinion totally!!!
;) ;) ;)
Peace brother! :)
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby yamawho on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:45 pm

I must admit that OSX and iLife are really good.

Since I got OSX we use iPhoto and iMovie for all photos and movies.
I was also using it as my main OS for a few months but when I realized that Numbers could open and edit excel files but would not save them in excel format, I stopped using it. I did not want to go the Office MAC route ...

Thats what is so cool about OpenOffice in Linux, you can even open old MS formats that current versions of office no longer support and resave them in a current MS format.

I was reading an article awhile back about Torvalds dumping on Gnome and how he would it was too simplified.
He went on about having to write code to have the options he wanted.
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby carlos on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:12 pm

Frankly it's very patronising for you to suggest that I, as a grown adult with an above average intelligent I am somehow misled.


Well aren't you? :wink: j/k

As always, you nailed it. Personally at home I now run OSX as my main os since I've bought an imac. Main reason? OSX passes the wife test. We're both in creative fields and mac is where its at. 2ndly, I can have any of the big 3 OSs on my machine. Also I like the user experience of OSx much more then any other os, but there are some minor things that still irritate me about it, but I won't go into it.

Mind you I do use linux as my other OS and every contribution I've made has been done on linux. I contribute towards it because I want it to surpass OSX and M$. Linux is getting there and in many ways there is no need for windoze or OSX for basic activities. But it still needs further improvement in its user experience and that will happen in time. After all we're all doing this for free. :D
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby Zwopper on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:56 pm

carlos wrote: After all we're all doing this for free. :D

And great fun it is!
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby molom on Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:31 am

Mac OS X is good used Panther and Tiger for 4 years, but I really like learning about OS's and OS X doesn't have any of that learning stuff. Vista is a load of garbage, but XP is pretty decent unless you hate the Virus and Spyware thing. I love Linux.

I would say Mac OS X is the best for people who have the money and want a really user friendly computer or people that are multimedia designers. Windows is used for enterprises and businesses, so its pretty much compulsory to use it for work. Windows is recommended for gamers. Linux is recommended for people who don't want to spend on OS's and software. Linux is also recommended for people who want user friendly computers, geeks and plenty of other people. Linux is free and has a bigger variety, which makes it superior compared to other OS's.

Cheers,
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby MagnusB on Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:17 pm

Really, I hear allot of pro Apple stuff here, but at some points I find Apple more scary than M$.
Apple wants to control every aspect of how their products are used. OS X will not run on anything other than a Mac, iPod are *only* supported by iTunes (yeah, I know, but those are hacks, not officially supported). As for iPod ruling the MP3 world, I beg to differ. There are tons of equally good players, even better players, that are open, mounted as an external disk, do not require some software by the producer. What Apple does good is hype, their i products are overhyped and overselled (looking forward to iRack and iRan, though). And Steve Jobs are equally greedy and power hungry as Ballmer/Gates. Really, with Apple or M$ there is no good guy, bad guy, you have to decide for yourself which is the baddest guy. Apple, the control freaks, or M$, which generally just force their customers to do what they want..
That being said, FOSS and Linux aren't all smiles and flowers either....
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby belovedmonster on Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:14 pm

A lot of people cant get past this concept that Apple controls both the hardware and the software but its really simple.

Do you upgrade parts on your Microwave? Do you tinker with your VCR to add better recording? Do you upgrade the main circuit board in a radio? Do you replace parts on your mp3 player? No. All these things are seen as single unit electrical devices that the majority of people don't tinker with. If it brakes you get a new one.

Consider that for a moment, because you will realise that actually a computer is the only device where people are expected to open it up and change parts inside. Where people are expected to update the software that runs the hardware.... Every other electrical device is sold as a single unit and where the features on it are set by the manufacturer.

Apple make computers that are like VCRS or Microwaves. It's a single contained unit, you use it for a few years and then buy a faster one.

Some people just cant get their heads around this. But it's not worse, its just different. At least different from the PC model, not different from the outside world at large since as I pointed out its actually the same as every other electronic device you own.

Also, just to wind people up I'm gunna point out that Apple are probably the most succesful open source company in the world at the moment. "Huh?! they aren't open source??" Well they sure use a lot of it at the core of their technologies! ;-)
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby MagnusB on Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:23 am

belovedmonster wrote:Also, just to wind people up I'm gunna point out that Apple are probably the most succesful open source company in the world at the moment. "Huh?! they aren't open source??" Well they sure use a lot of it at the core of their technologies! ;-)

Nope, not open source, they use BSD core (Unix), different license than GPL, meaning they can republish the code under proprietary licenses, and that is what Apple has done. They may support open source projects (I have no idea), but so does IBM and HP, in fact HP has the best printer support in linux, and it is all open. Yeah, Apple does some good things, in fact the control of hardware and software could be an advantage, but they also keep it very closed. Apple is not Mr. Nice Guy, they are in it for the money, and Steve Jobs is the most disgusting and arrogant person I have ever seen!
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Re: Torvalds: Microsoft is bluffing & Apple crap

Postby belovedmonster on Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:24 am

MagnusB wrote: They may support open source projects (I have no idea)


Actually, while I was jesting, there's a few important technologies used in Linux which Apple own, for example CUPS which without you wouldn't be able to print documents. Also as we speak KDE is dumping its own KHTML for Apples open source Webkit, which is also used by Google on the Android platform.
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