installation linux mint 12 LXDE to hdd

[mariomucho123]

Installing to the usb drive went smooth, but I have run into qustions while running the setup to install to hdd.

First off, where do I install the boot loader to and why I need it? Does it matter whether I install it to entire hdd drive, windows parition, seperate parition, linux mint parition, etc.?

I selected to re-parition manually for the install. Correct me if I'm wrong, to install I would select a parition and shrink the size so that the amount taken off that parition can be used for linux mint. Say oringal parition is 500>edit to 400. The 100 is used for linux mint.

Oh and does it make a difference where I install linux mint to? (sda, sbc, etc.)

[MrBob22]

See page 12 Mint Manual.
Read the topic "Installation and Boot" -- lots of answers on how to set up your hard drive.
Its easier to follow the live cd/DVD instructions but you can choose how you want to set thing up and set your system manually.
Take care, MrBob22

[mariomucho123]

See page 12 Mint Manual.
Read the topic "Installation and Boot" -- lots of answers on how to set up your hard drive.

This does not give enough detailed instructions or answer my question. One reason I want to know the above is so I know alternative ways of installing this. Like why do I knew to install the bootloader, couldn't I just use windows?

[MrBob22]

I am not sure I am understanding the question. But let me try this as a reply.
Where do you install a boot loader and why do you need it? The boot loader is needed, well, to boot your operating system. The hard drive has a boot sector and the loader is generally installed there. GRUB (short for GNU GRand Unified Bootloader) is a boot loader package from the GNU Project. A version of this is used in most Linux systems. GRUB can be configured so that you can pick from different operating systems loaded on your hard drive.

Does it matter whether I install it to entire hdd drive, windows parition, separate parition, linux mint parition, etc.? GRUB is usually installed in just one folder on the boot drive. Since you are usually using GRUB with Linux and then booting the system or systems you have installed on the hard drive, GRUB should be on the main or booting hard drive. Just to be clear, the entire hard drive is available to operating systems, but to break it into chunks, portions are sectioned off into "partitions". FIle operations are different among the various operating systems, so some care is taken when working with tools that partition the hard drive (to avoid data loss or inability to boot the hard drive.) I would think it wise to read up on gparted or other partition software beforehand because they rely on operator knowledge to work well.

The last question about shrinking from 500>400 and using 100 for Linux Mint sounds correct, but I still think if you are new that using the Live cd/DVD and letting the partition work be done by the Mint disk is less prone to operator error.

Take Care,MrBob22

[mariomucho123]

I still think if you are new that using the Live cd/DVD and letting the partition work be done by the Mint disk is less prone to operator error.

Well I didn't have a cd. I don't see how it could be more problematic using a usb. The issue is that I am just not familar with linux installers and the paritioning software that is used here. I have not used linux for an extensive period, so I am only familar with Disk Utity.

I need one thing clearified. After installing GRUB, the windows bootloader should still remain the default, and thus windows will still remain the default operating system to boot on startup, correct?

The hard drive has a boot sector and the loader is generally installed there

Using the parition resize program to install LM12, by default the entire drive is selected as a location to install the boot loader to. What I mean is ATA Toshiba is selected, which is the device label of my hard drive. I can change this to other paritions such as /boot, sda, sba, and so on. So what I am wondering is will this automatically install the boot loader to the section of the hard drive where it should be or overwrite the entire drive? (I already screwed up my hard drive once)

[MrBob22]

The point about the CD or 'DVD was about letting the Mint installer handle the partition work rather than doing it manually. The loader probes your hard drive and sees what systems are there.

I have had dual boot systems and GRUB allows you to choose which system you use. I believe you can set one of them as the first choice or default if I remember correctly. But I think GRUB operates independent of the OS so it allows either windows or linux to boot.

I think that is about as far I can go with this -- maybe another more tech person can chime in to get a more direct answer.

Take Care, MrBob22

[mintybits]

The way Grub works can be confusing if you are used to the standard MBR boot system.

In the standard/original system, each OS installs its boot-loader inside its own partition. The MBR sector at the start of the disk just chooses which partition to boot, specified by the "boot flag". This is how Windows works and how linux could work with ext format if it had been made compatible with the MBR system. But it wasn't.

Linux is unable to contain the boot-loader code inside the linux partition. Instead, it has to find somewhere else and it sort of steals a bunch of so-called "unused" sectors immediately after the MBR to install (some of) Grub and re-writes the MBR code to always boot Grub (the boot flag is ignored).

So the problem is that when you install Grub to the MBR area it breaks the original MBR code thus rendering Windows unbootable except via Grub. The other problem is that the Windows boot-loader will only boot partitions that are compatible with the MBR system. The other problem is that the Ubuntu/Mint installer won't let you not install Grub. The other problem is that the Grub boot-loader is dependent on files inside the linux partition so if you delete the linux partition your Grub breaks. Grub is half inside and half outside the linux partition, as it were. Another problem is that the "unused" sectors aren't defined and there have been instances of Windows apps using those sectors and breaking Grub.

It is an installer option to install Grub to the linux partition but this is a hack and doesn't work reliably in the long run and is discouraged. You could try this out and change the MBR boot flag to the linux partition and/or try adding it to your Windows boot menu.

[mariomucho123]

Thanks, it is nice to have a reply from someone who knows the technical details a bit better. Well, I would rather not have windows and the entire computer relieing on GRUB, so if I could install all of GRUB to the linux parition that would be great.
However, I have little clue about how I would successfully add the linux parition to the windows boot menu. Could someone guide me?

[mintybits]

Unfortunately, Grub is one of the poorest documented applications I have ever encountered. I had to figure most of this out from reading the source code and looking at the machine code on disk. Pretty grim. Open-source isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Google "EasyBCD": it is probably the easiest way, or check out Microsoft's pages about the boot menu for the version of Windows you are using. I know in Win7 it is a PITA to manually add an entry to the boot menu.

Personally, I prefer to install Windows on a separate disk to linux. Failing that, install Grub to a different disk than the Windows disk. It doesn't matter which MBR of all your disks/USB devices you install Grub to so long as your bios will boot that device. On my laptop I have Windows 7 and Mint 12 on the same HD but I installed Grub to the MBR of a tiny USB stick that I keep plugged in permanently. This way, if I remove the stick Windows will boot up directly. This ensures Windows boot is not dependent on Grub/linux OS.

[MrBob22]

Mintybits - very clever solution to use the USB for Linux loading. Sounds lke a very cool solution!
I have a similar approach but different implementation. I keep my Windows7 machine with no Linux code on it and right next to it is a LinuxMint12 machine with no Windows code. I boot each one separately and switch between using a shared mouse, keyboard and monitor with KVM usb switch. I also have my Canon printer attached to the front panel usb so in case I want print something from Linux, I just move the cable over a foot and replug (it normally stays connected to the Windows machine.) Now most of the time, I am actually connected to the Mint computer but sometimes I have to do some things on the Windoz computer.
obviously this wont be ideal for most people because they dont have or dont want two boxes side by side. It works great for me. Take care MrBob22

[mintybits]

Mintybits - very clever solution to use the USB for Linux loading. Sounds lke a very cool solution!
I have a similar approach but different implementation. I keep my Windows7 machine with no Linux code on it and right next to it is a LinuxMint12 machine with no Windows code. I boot each one separately and switch between using a shared mouse, keyboard and monitor with KVM usb switch. I also have my Canon printer attached to the front panel usb so in case I want print something from Linux, I just move the cable over a foot and replug (it normally stays connected to the Windows machine.) Now most of the time, I am actually connected to the Mint computer but sometimes I have to do some things on the Windoz computer.
obviously this wont be ideal for most people because they dont have or dont want two boxes side by side. It works great for me. Take care MrBob22

Hi MrBob22, your setup sounds quite handy for switching between the two. And no boot conflicts in your case.
For those who only have one box they might achieve a similar functionality by running Windows in VirtualBox. I do this on my desktop and it works very well.

[mariomucho123]

Personally, I prefer to install Windows on a separate disk to linux. Failing that, install Grub to a different disk than the Windows disk. It doesn't matter which MBR of all your disks/USB devices you install Grub to so long as your bios will boot that device. On my laptop I have Windows 7 and Mint 12 on the same HD but I installed Grub to the MBR of a tiny USB stick that I keep plugged in permanently. This way, if I remove the stick Windows will boot up directly. This ensures Windows boot is not dependent on Grub/linux OS.

I would agree with bob, sounds like a good idea. If you had success installing GRUB on a usb drive I might be able to have the same success. I thought of just installing a different boot loader, such as syslinux or something to a hdd parition, but knowing that to install linux mint you have to install GRUB too that wouldn't work. At this point, I am questioning why you must install GRUB with linux mint. There needs to be other options. Options that will not affect the other boot loaders or operating system on the hdd.

Oh and I'd just like to say.. thanks for all the support and at first I was suprised at how much community support mint receives I hear ubuntu has a large support community as well, but I haven't used any of the other mainstream distros. Looking foward to it.

[mintybits]

At this point, I am questioning why you must install GRUB with linux mint. There needs to be other options. Options that will not affect the other boot loaders or operating system on the hdd.

That is a question I would like to ask the Ubiquity designers too. IMO, for MBR disks, the installer should offer an MBR Grub install or no install at all and nothing else.The SuSE installer offers the "no Grub" option.

The best work-around is to select to install Grub to the new linux root partition. Then it won't get used. Your existing boot-loader can then add the new linux and bypass the new Grub.

Ironically, just last night I installed Ubuntu 12.04 and Grub would not install because it had become too big to fit in the 62 sector area after the MBR. Of course, I wasn't warned until after the installation of 12.04 and then my system could not be booted at all! I was able to work-around by booting off a USB stick but I think many users will hit this problem and waste hours trying to sort it out. As for me, I would have to reformat my RAID10/LVM array to make more space for Grub - a major upheaval and waste of my time which I shall avoid for now. Maybe Grub will be squeezed in an urgent update.

I find the Grub system frustrating because IMO Grub should exist entirely within the linux partition (like Windows' does) but does not do so because of a what appears to be a format oversight of ext which ought to be fixed. The number of people who have problems and waste time that I have helped over several years now attests to the problematic design.