New to linux sortof

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New to linux sortof

Postby Wesdog on Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:23 pm

Hey guys Im new to linux kindof. I installed sabayon linux mini edition a few months ago and I booted into it for a couple of weeks. The entire time I was working in it I was trying to get flash to work in places like youtube. It would not work. I tried to get help on their forums and when I posed the question "why cant I just click a link and download the thing and install it like windows" everyone on the forum lost it and started being extremely rude to me. I guess since I didnt want to do things the "linux way" of going to a command prompt I was disrespecting them.

I dont want to have to pull up a window and type apt-get whatever for simple little things like a flash plugin for a browser. Does this linuxmint make things that should be simple one click things simple? Or is it going to be like sabayon where everything is 3x as complicated as it need be. I understand you can do more and have more power in by typing sudo this and that but I dont need power I just need flash to be installed for when my mom sends me an email of some stupid youtube video. Or my main problem I want to listen to pandora without taking days to find a way to install a plugin to make it work. I know I sound snarky but I was really treated crappy by the "great linux community" because I asked for something simple to be simple.

So is this linux different or is it more of the same where I have to get out notes and copy/paste commands in order to do simple things that should be click and install?


First post about this is the way we do things maybe you should learn linux and forget windows and get used to having to type everything in Im outta here and it will be my last attempt to ever try linux again. I have taken computer information systems courses in college and I am extremely smart but I dont have time to go through help files in order to install a simple plugin for my browser. I have 3 pcs that could be changed to linux and then there is my brothers and my parents 2 pcs and my friends but I have to find the right linux. If there is something that is super powerful and needs to be typed in word for word perfectly but thats fine. But little things should not be. I should be able to go to shockwave\flash website and click their linux install and poof my browser restarts and flash animation works.

I know there is a place for power users and in some ways I could be one. I want a chance to get things working and get comfortable with linux before being thrown to the lions and having to install everything from the command prompt. I honestly cannot put into words my frustration and anger with my experience with sabayon and its community. It has taken months for me to get to the point of trying another version of linux. I want some power but not much. A friend said ubuntu and pclinuxos treat you like a child while others treat you like an expert. I am looking for some middle ground. I am downloading the main linuxmint right now. I grabbed it because I dont know which is better gnome or kde.

I have a p4 2.53ghz 533fsb Northwood cpu
1GB ram
160 GB hard drive 5200 rpm
120 GB hard drive 5200 rpm I forget what kind they are off the top of my head
128MB ATI radeon 9600 SE. I think its a sapphire brand card its been in for 2 years so I dont remember. AGP ya ya I know lame. The actual lame part is its 4x not even an 8x agp slot.
Onboard sound and some cheap 15 dollar network card because the onboard network card went kaput
I know I can run just about any distro and will be upgrading to a 3.06 cpu soon with 2gb ram and a better video card. This is just a stopgap measure before I throw down about 3500 on top of the line everything gaming pc. That and it will give me a decent backup pc. I may even upgrade the MB to a newer one and get a dual core cpu.I have tried many live cds and only installed sabayon. I just couldnt get into something that forced me to have a notebook full of commands to type in whenever I wanted to do something. So can I use this OS without constantly having man pages open in order to do small simple tasks?

So let me know all about linuxmint and please be nicer than those awesomely cool guys at sabayon forums were. Please forgive my attitude I am still just very upset at the way they treated me there (its been months). Especially after hearing everywhere about the wonderful communities in linux. I will ask why cant it be done like this so please dont get upset that I dont understand the whole linux lifestyle thing. I shouldnt understand it because Im on the outside looking in. Maybe if I can install this and flash installs easily and other programs that I use install easily. Maybe if I can get wine going to play WoW without an act of god and 3 pages of commands in a notebook to get it installed and set up I will be part of the linux lifestyle and be converting people I know. Yes I know I know this post is TLDR but I babble on and on and rarely if ever make a post that isnt super long. I guess I get that from my mom. Im normally very quiet but when I type everything comes out quickly and I can type pretty fast.

Thx in advance for your replies,
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Re: New to linux sortof

Postby muskratmx on Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:12 am

Ok frist off, I'm sorry for the rude welcome you've had to the linux community.

when I posed the question "why cant I just click a link and download the thing and install it like windows" everyone on the forum lost it and started being extremely rude to me. I guess since I didnt want to do things the "linux way" of going to a command prompt I was disrespecting them.


But you seem to miss understand a VERY important aspect to any OS. Each is sperate, Each is different.
Linux is not MSwindows, If you want an OS to do just like windows, and install windows packages, the windows way. I'd politely suggest you stay with windows. Because Linux is not windows and never will be.

First post about this is the way we do things maybe you should learn linux and forget windows and get used to having to type everything in Im outta here and it will be my last attempt to ever try linux again.


Threats like this don't earn you any favors, if your still here, We will help you. But you got to understand unlike windows we are all volinteers here. We don't have to help people just because you want help, we help because we want to, or because we believe thats whats right, But you GOT TO forget window's way of doing things, I'm sorry but that's a must, there is no way around that. But there is NO ONE LINUX way ether. Linux is all about choice. For every job in windows that had only one way of doing it. Linux will have a number of ways of doing the same job.

If you still here, Sabayon is not Linux, nether is Mint. Both use a Linux kernel with GNU utilities. The name Linux is abused and taged on as the whole OS. Mint is a linux distro, same as Sabayon. Each built and maintained by volenteers, each having thier loyal followers. This is very unlike windows where the kernel and the utilities are all MS made by paid programers, where you have a right to princess and threaten because you paid a premium price to run thier trashy software. But really how far did princess and threating MS ever get you. Not far I believe.

I have taken computer information systems courses in college and I am extremely smart but I dont have time to go through help files in order to install a simple plugin for my browser


Ok I'm not sure exactly what a "computer information systems courses" involes, But installing a plugin into a browser is the same in windows as linux, absolutly no difference. So I don't see what the problems unless, your have a transition problem from Internet Explorer to Mozzilla, But that's not the Linux communities fault or problem.

One last note before we get down to your problems, if your still here and still reading, On any forum windows or Linux, No difference. It's considered best to post a new thread for each problem, not grouping them all in one.

Ok problem number one,

Your flash plugin:

I don't use flash, but mozzila has a function called addons under tools, that's where the plugins are. It's just a point and click same as windows. If it's not there. Then you might need mozzila extra packages (MS term programs) in ether windows or linux. The windows .exe will never install. To install in linux you have got to get the package made for your distro, in this case LinuxMint.

It has to be installed with the package manager of said distro, Linux Mint has more than one way to use the package manager. #1 way CL (command Line) or #2 is the GUI (point and click) front end. In Mint they use Synaptic Package manager, It operates with as much ease as windows add and remove programs.

Problem number two,

Your hardware specs;

I didn't really see a clear question about any thing listed in your hardware listing, I assume you want our oppion as to wether it'll give you problems in Linux. I'm sorry but you will have give it a test run and see or do some research on each piece seperatly and see what you find out. But I can say just about all hardware is supported by Linux, some easier than others.

I will also add, if your planning to invest in new hardware, check it out frist and see if it plays nice with Linux. Or just purchase a linux box preinstalled, if you really don't want to configure it yourself.

Problem number three,

Running closed source formats;

You will find a lot of webmasters who don't support the open source ideas, and they build thier sites so it only works with IE or some other close source codex apps. Those web sites are not built by us here in the open source community, they don't open the source so we can build apps to run or access them, so simple put, it's not our fault you can't run our apps and access them. It's thier fault, so please princess at them. Maybe, if enough people princess in the right place we'd see them change.

Problem number four,

Running windows apps and games;

Wine is not the only choice, there is 5 or 6 different ways of running windows apps in Linux. But with the hardware you have I'd suggest virtualbox, then install XP or vista as a guest inside your linux OS to play your games. I have two programs I run that way, One is IE because I have to access a goverment site which won't work with any other browser, and I need CorelDraw.

Vbox installs real easy into debian based distro such as Mint.

Now back to your real beef;;;;;;;;;

Using the command line will be a must, from time to time. I'm sorry but it's a MUST from Time to Time.
If you really can't handle that, then Linux just isn't for you. That doesn't have anything to do with power or speed, it's just that, when you ask us for help. We don't know what desktop your using or what packages you have installed, and it's much more precise and clearer when we answer you with CL code. One size fits all so to speak.

One last word of wisdom,

I've been where you are today;

This link is a good read, nearly a must I'd say to most newbies in the linux/opensource community
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Good Luck and I hope you took my responds well.
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Re: New to linux sortof

Postby Fred on Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:28 am

Very well put muskratmx.

Wesdog,

Welcome. We will try to help you as much as we can. Please try to remember though that we are all volunteers and we don't like to be abused anymore than you do. :-)

If you are patient with us, we will be patient with you.

Fred

EDIT: You can look at my post in the below thread in response to a similar issue, if you wish.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10844
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

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Re: New to linux sortof

Postby McLovin on Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:19 am

Welcome to Mint
I must again say that muskratmx has sated it as it is, Mint (or any distro of Linux) is not Windows, things are done differently, not necessarily more complicated, just different.
As for the rude welcome from the Sabayon community, Sabayon is based on Gentoo, probably the most complicated Linux distro out. I had tried a distro called Arch, and was treated the same as you were on the Sabayon forum, and I'm an experienced Linux user, but the Mint forums are a much friendlier place, but making comments about if we say "You need to run a command line........" and you're gone, never to some back, is most definitely the wrong way to come into Linux, no friends will be won.
The only thing about your hardware that I see you may have ANY kind of a problem, would be the video card, it will run, but to get all the extras like desktop effects, you will have to do a little configuring, very easy to do with that card though, I have Mint installed on 2 of my home computers, a laptop, and a desktop, both using ATI cards, and I have done ALOT of research and experimenting with them, and have found a few different ways to get the proper drivers installed, all you have to is ask, and you will get help, but try not to be confrontational if you are told the you need to go to the console for something, it is a very powerful tool, that can be your best friend at times.
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Re: New to linux sortof

Postby Wesdog on Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:35 am

You guys are 10x as awesome as the sabayon users. Oh and hehe your name is McLovin sorry thats an awesome movie.

I know linux is not windows. The only way I found to install flash in sabayon was to download it with their package manager then manually unzip it into a folder from the command prompt and then using sudo (which I had to figure out how activate to use it) I had to google what commands to use and where exactly to put the file. After a couple of days of searching and no help from their forums I got it working however it was without sound. I found nowhere any reference or instructions on adding flash to the browser either on google, the sabayon forums or within the documentation provided with the OS or mozilla browser. That took a total of about 5 or 6 hours to track down everything and get it working. I have had a computer since 1994 and my hotmail email addy since 1995. There is nothing I cant do on a windows machine. I am the guy that all my friends call to fix their computer when it is acting up. I literally do windows tech support for about 20 people running from vista ultimate to windows 98 and windows ME. I spend probably about 10 hours or more a week on the phone or going to a friends house to unfuxor his pc from too much ****/spyware. Using google I can find whatever I need.

If there is an option to install plugins from within the browser there was no mention of it anywhere I looked nor did anyone I asked on their forums know about it.

The classes Ive taken were programming classes basic, visual basic, and a couple of classes on C. Along with a couple of A+ prep courses at a local tech college. Ive also done some night classes on apache and some SQL classes. I ran a few websites for some friends that didnt know how to even buy a domain name. I can take a computer apart and put it back together or troubleshoot hardware or software problems in my sleep. I can write some small useless programs just for fun if I feel like it. Maybe a little survey in vb or something.

Im not expecting windows from a linux distro. What I do expect is things that are not mission critical important, something like if I want to install The Gimp to edit images I can go to a package manager with a decent GUI and search for it and then click download/install and it do it for me rather than having to remember or have a cheat sheet with commands to download and install a pretty popular program. Now if I want to edit some configuration files or hack the kernal then yeah lets make it super powerful but I dont see needing any kind of power to install an image editing program or any other.

Sorry bout posting everything in one thread. I never tried to install anything besides flash on sabayon simply for the fact that after all my frustration when it did install it had no sound and how rude everyone had been about the whole issue. I know the google is my friend. I have a tab in my browser (firefox) always open to google to search. I use several open source programs on my pc. The Gimp, firefox, thunderbird, etc etc etc.


Thanks again for the help and advice. I will let you know how it goes with the livecd. Im just looking for a simple alternative to the stupid crazy resource hound that is windows. The keyword is simple not I want to be a command line power user. I understand totally the utility of it and the draw of knowing things that not everyone knows its like being a member of a secret club and you know the handshake and password to get in.

This is what I will do on the computer
Music (listening, I use fruity loops and some plugins with my keyboard to make some music)
Video ( watching movies and editing home videos)
Websites ( I know html and can work my way around in php and can use mysql pretty well, I will be making websites and messing around with that)
Gaming ( I play games rfactor, wow, F.E.A.R, many others)
Internet (surfing and things)
Email (got to have the email)
Programming( I may mess around with programming and learning a little more)

Right now I can do it all in windows but with 1gb of ram and XP sp2 using up around 475mb of that at startup I cant do much because more than 1 or 2 windows open and it slows down. Yes I use antivirus, firewall, antispyware and keep my system clean and scanned. I remove all unneeded processes to speed things up.

You guys are a great help. I can already tell you are a heck of a lot nicer than the last place I went. Of course since that distro had a french kind of feel to it maybe everyone was french and just naturally rude. My video card was a little bit of a problem to get the compiz features going in sabayon but I got it done in about half an hour by looking on google and doing some poking around. I did have to use the command line for it but the commands werent complicated and it went poof and worked. Im not scared of the command prompt I just dont want to have to do everything in there. I told google that my compiz didnt work and it gave me a website with instruction to make it work. I followed said instructions and had a nice zoomy cube desktop.

Sorry about having an attitude I guess I was just compensating in case I got what I had before and in doing that I invited it on myself from the start here. Thanks for being more patient and understanding than me. I was braced and prepared for OMG U R teh nubsauce plz go use windoze kthxbai. I wont be that way again.

McLovin hehe thats awesome

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Re: New to linux sortof

Postby Zwopper on Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:01 am

Welcome to Linux Mint!
Wesdog wrote:Of course since that distro had a french kind of feel to it maybe everyone was french and just naturally rude.

WesDog

The Creator of Linux Mint (Clem) is French, and he doesn't seem rude at all! :D
I think you generalize a little to heavy my friend! :wink: :twisted:
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Re: New to linux sortof

Postby Wesdog on Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:34 am

Color me embarrassed!! I was just making a joke sorry if it was offensive. Im on the live cd right now and it looks like things are working great right out of the box. Pandora is playing music and youtube is working right. I like me some linuxmint so far.

I have noticed that many of the linux distros are from countries other than the US. I dont know if thats just a different attitude toward open source in other countries or just complacency in using windows in the US.

I think Im about to install over my sabayon linux install and use mint and try to get to know it and get everything I need installed on it. Besides a VM and windows apps for now. I think I will dual boot instead of running a VM in linux. It will be easier on resources I think until I can upgrade to a better vid card and 2gb of ram. Also gonna replace the 2.53 P4 with a 3.06 p4. Its not much faster but Im going to overclock it to about 3.4 or 3.5ghz and put a really good fan/heatsink on it. So that should put a little extra hitch in my giddyup.

As in reference above to getting a new pc Im going to get one from cyberpowerpc that I can configure. I know its a little more expensive than building my own but ordering the components from all over and then putting it together and getting it working its worth buying one rather than the time it takes to do it on my own. I configured one for about 3400 and thats with a 28 inch monitor. I could save 2 or 300 bucks doing it myself but it probably wouldnt be worth the extra effort to do it. Dual 8800 GTX cards with 512mb each of ddr3. Rambling again and my wife probably wont let me get it for a long time and by then it would be outdated so it doesnt matter.

You guys really are a lot different then my last experience with a linux distro. Be watchin for noob questions from me in the near future most likely. Dont worry Ill make sure to search the forums before asking a question again. This aint my first rodeo and the search button and I are pretty good friends.

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Re: New to linux sortof

Postby muskratmx on Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:42 pm

I'm glad you don't take offense to the truth. But it looks like your far more educated than me.

The Gimp to edit images I can go to a package manager with a decent GUI and search for it and then click download/install and it do it for me rather than having to remember or have a cheat sheet with commands to download and install a pretty popular program.


If you want to install packages, without the CL, then learn synaptic. I personally don't use it. But my dad uses it all the time. It's a full point and click package manager, with a search. Gimp is in it. You might have to use the CL to edit the sources.list, but after that over 20,000 packages will be available to you.

Another thing about linux distros. There is basically two different ways of booting. Debian uses one method, some distros use another. I'm not formalier with the other way. I don't know sabayon or which method they use ether. So I'd advice until you conquer the basics in linux and feel as comfortable doing your maintance and repair as you are currently in windows, stay with the one method.

There are two types of systems packages, prepackaged packages, and source code. If at all possible use the prepackaged package. It'll save you headache the developer already had suffered for you. Then there is three basic package families, #1 .deb (debian), #2 .rpm (redhat package manager) #3 .tgz (slackware). Gentoo has another I guess, but those three are used over many distros. That being one of the dividing factors that split the distros into families. So once again until you conqour the basics try to stay within one family.

Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Knoppix, DSL, Sidux are all Debian based. Debian being the granddaddy of them all. There's hundreds of debian based distros. So you won't feel cramped staying with in the family, but everything you learn here at Linux Mint can be applied to each of the other debian based distros. Also packages that gain a place in your heart and live won't be lost changing distros, ether. Such a synaptic for my Dad.

Out of your list of software needs, you can do them all in linux with linux native packages, some of the best movies I've seen was created with linux. Take "The Lord of the Rings" series, 100% linux computers used for all the special effects. There will be problems with games, some will some won't I'm not a gamer, but there's lots of them on these boards.

As for dual booting that's your choice. But your hardware puts mine to shame. I'm running 1.2ghz processors with 500mb ram, and 16mb vidio ram. And I don't have any trouble running winxp in vbox. So just as a point of reference, I'm sure yours will preform fine.

I hope this thread has served it's purpose well for you. But like I mentioned before. To really help you the best and others who follow you, it's best to organize your problems, separating them, starting a new thread for each with a name that helps others find it in a search. That way we help you and others who come behind you, with the same problem. Also after you have organized your problems it helps you to search this forum board, you'll probably find your answers already, asked and answered.

Also since you started the thread, you can edit the title, and put the word [solved], when you finished and the problems been resolved. leaving your other problems still running. It's sort of good edicate, like wiping your mouth on a napkin instead of your sleeve so to speak.
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