I have to say I am disappointed with 4.0

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I have to say I am disappointed with 4.0

Postby Christof999 on Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:46 pm

Hi there,

I was really excited at first with Mint 4.0. I installed it, it had a great feel and great features. Then the problems started. First of all, I have to MANUALLY boot my system from the grub menu, grub did not detect the drive properly. I had to edit my menu.lst. Fixable, but certainly not user friendly, and a pain when you have a business to run. Then I noticed that my sound was not working right. It worked but the sound applet detected my front speakers as "CD", and on top of that there is a delay in response when I change the volume level! For example, I turn up a video, and it takes 7 seconds before the volume actually responds. Then there is the video problems. If I switch back from full screen the video gets garbled and I have to restart the x-server before it works. Then there is the little problem of the whole computer locking up and needing restarting! Not just the xserver, but the whole computer. I am not able to alt-F4 out to the command line.

I Would love to love Mint, but its just not reliable enough for a business that relies on its computers.

Does anyone know of a distribution that will just WORK when I install it without ten days of fixing stuff? I am getting so sick of this. Linux feels like the Millennium Falcon, its never working, despite Han Solo assuring you it does all the time!

I just want to install a system that will work, that will play my xvid videos, and Commercial DVDs, MP3s, APE files with no installing. That will work with my printers, that will allow me to do what I want without having to tweak, fix and post on forums.

I am getting really tired. Please help me out.
Christof
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby msgnomer on Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:03 pm

Sorry you're having troubles. What are your computer specs? Graphics card, sound card, processor, RAM, etc.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby Christof999 on Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:43 pm

AMD 64 bit 3800 X2 AM2
Nvidia 7300GS
1 GB RAM
4 SATA disks
DVD-RW
Asus M2N-E

Im sure the issues could be fixed, but thats my point. I wouldnt want to buy a new car, drive it off the lot and spend 10 days repairing it in my driveway before it works.

Not trying to be harsh, but it is frustrating. Its not exclusive to Mint, there has not been a Distro that simply worked.

C.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby hjmohsin on Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:44 am

My dear brother,

I'm totally satisfied with MintLinux... My staffs and friends and me have installed 3.0/3.1 and 3.0 XFCE on > 10 notebooks & desktops; from PIII 667MHz 128MB ram to P1.8GHz dualcore 1GB ram.

We are very happy we have MintLinux. I am now using Cassandra 3.0 XFCE.
TQ so much to all contributors, esp Clem & Merlwiz, Ubuntu team, Debian team... to all of us!
:D :D :D :D :D
TQVM
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby msgnomer on Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:32 am

Christof999,

It may be that your hardware configuration will require more than average tweaking no matter which distro you choose.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby nick on Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:17 am

Hi


Can you give output of
Code: Select all
lspci



If anybody find devices lacking linux support (not printers) the Kernel Developer team would like to hear from you:

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=6198

Nick




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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby Kynan on Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:30 am

nick wrote:Hi


Can you give output of
Code: Select all
lspci



If anybody find devices lacking linux support (not printers) the Kernel Developer team would like to hear from you:

http://linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=6198

Nick




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What can be done about printers that are not well supported. I'm sick of having to manually install my printer/scanner every time i upgrade to a new version.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby D-EJ915 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:45 pm

You could create a print server (computer) then set up printer sharing on it, that is if you have another computer and/or don't mind having it on.

Weird you're having issues though, I've got an AM2 opteron/nforce pro setup and have had no problems getting any distro to recognize my hardware.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby deadguy on Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:37 pm

hjmohsin wrote:I'm totally satisfied with MintLinux...


I too am totally satisfied with mint :D

Christof999 wrote:Im sure the issues could be fixed, but thats my point. I wouldnt want to buy a new car, drive it off the lot and spend 10 days repairing it in my driveway before it works


you bought Mint????

in the past, I bought windows and spent more than 10 days trying to get it to work properly(windows 98)!!

Clem and co do a great job with mint, the people in this forum are a great help and it's all free!!!

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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby Christof999 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:36 pm

Someone asked if I bought Mint.

Id like to adress this point, since whenever any user complains that linux is not working someone chimes in with this.

This is how I see it.

Does the Linux community want linux to simply be a hobby or to be a viable option for desktop, business and server use? If you want it just for a hobby, then thats fine, I agree, great job, Clem, everyone at Ubuntu, the Suse guys, Fedora, great job, you have a neat hobby that is done well. If you want Linux to actually be used by people for their desktops and businesses, then you must do better, much better. This issues I experienced (and other similar ones with other distros) are simply unacceptable and make the system relatively unusable. I understand that some of you do linux stuff as a hobby, but the rest of us simply want a computer to work on, and a computer that works. We have no interest in tinkering, or cute names. And industry and the world of commerce cares only about their computers working. If you want open source software to become a serious option and actually attract investment, you must do better and above all you must stop touting the line that "Hey buddy you didn't even pay for it!". I had heard from someone that Linux was a good option for business. That it would save me money and time, and be more secure and stable than windows. If I can't even boot the thing up and basic functionality for work and play are not there, I feel that I was mislead (and yes I realize that windows sucks too, which is also unacceptable). Lots of distributions these days have paid staff and do make money off their distributions. Alot of linux hobbyists act like no money changes hands in anything related to linux, and that simply is not true. The world needs stable computing for everything from heart surgery, to air traffic control to small business managing, to relaxing to watch movies, and I'm sorry the "You didn't pay for it argument simply doesn't cut it if Linux is stepping up to the plate to be that stable computer. "You did'nt pay for it is for hobbies, not anything else.

That being said I do appreciate the people who contribute to these forums, however, please remember you do so because it is your hobby, you ENJOY it, you are getting something out of this too, its not completely a one way street and mentioning to people that they didnt pay you for it is not really true, we did pay you something, in giving you a sense of satisfaction or propping up your linux hobby by making the leap of faith needed to switch from windows.

C.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby grrrlshapedthing on Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:09 pm

Now I'm fairly new to mint but have been sussing out linux for the past year... the problem with your new car analogy is that you didn't buy a new car off a lot instead you got a car kit that is in development. It seems you have two issues with that:

1. It's in constant development, meaning that a week after you got it the developer might have realized a better way to do thing and thus you might have some problems and will have to look it up online or such.

2. that despite it being a "kit" you mad that you have to put it together, but that's kinda the whole point of linux, that you buy these various "kits"(ie. Ubuntu, Mint, RedHat, etc..) but from that kit you can build a station wagon or a sports car... it can be however you want it...

The point of Linux isn't to take over the world one desktop at a time, but to offer an option for people who really want to get in there and work on there computers and maybe spend the first two weeks after installing it to get the software to work right and get everything running smoothly, but know that most likely after that initial first couple weeks your not going to have to do much more work on it unlike windoze... yes there are people who do make money selling Linux, but not many and definitely not making millions.

Sounds to me like you expected something out of Linux that Linux was just not ever going to provide! maybe you should look into a mac.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby jdhore on Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:23 pm

Christof999 wrote:Someone asked if I bought Mint.

Id like to adress this point, since whenever any user complains that linux is not working someone chimes in with this.

This is how I see it.

*snipped*


Sorry about snipping your comment, but i wanted this to be easily readable instead of adding a lot of text :P

What you have is a cause of 2 possible things:
1. Not googling and finding out if you have linux compatible hardware.
2. Random issues because of strange hardware or hardware that may be close to failing.

I have 11 systems of different specs (though all Intel CPU's) in my house and all of the hardware in all of them except for 1 laptop (old, crappy Dell where the sound doesn't work in *nix...and i haven't tried *nix on it for over a year) is 100% linux compatible with the small exception of maybe needing to install the binary nVidia/ATI driver or a wifi driver.

In my opinion and my experience, distros like Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint, etc are more than ready for the desktop. In using my current Mint 4.0 install, other than when i chose to, i never needed to open up a terminal and type commands to get my system working. Also, after about 5-10 minutes of installing some of my favorite apps (Deluge Torrent, Skype, Kopete, etc) I had my system 100%...It would take me about 6-7 hours to get my system even close to that if i was running Windows. Also, even the Ubuntu Gutsy/Mint 4.0 installer is easier to use than the Windows XP or Vista installers.

Also, as for use in business, I work for a major telecom company in NYC and our main servers (3 of them) are running *nix (currently Debian Etch) and they're excellent. I've also been considering putting Linux on the 150 users' computers, but i chose not to simply for the fact that it's not what they're used to. Not only that, but the governments of many countries and also many large companies are switching over to *nix so i'd say it's pretty ready for business as well.

Also, you said in your post that you were using it cuz a friend said using linux could save you money and it was more secure and more stable than Windows...This statement means 2 things to me:
1. You're using linux for completely the wrong reason. Linux is NOT meant to be just "free windows", it's so much more than that and so much more than i can possibly cover in 1 forum post.
2. Your friend is a jerk. He tells you to "go with linux" and then when you start having problems, not helping you...Not cool Christof's friend.

One final thought: You have no right to princess about Linux not working 100% out of the box and having really no one to "officially" complain to or get help from. If you want "someone to blame", go buy a copy of RHEL (Red Hat Enterprise Linux), SLED (SuSe Linux Enterprise Desktop) or Windows. The reason you pay $100-500 a license is so that you can have support and someone to complain at when things go wrong. No other reason really. You chose to go the free route so in essence, you get what you pay for. If i need a computer and i see an old Pentium 2 junker on Craigslist for free, I have no right to princess when i get it home and can't play FarCry on it.

Even though Linux might have failed for you because you were looking for "free Windows" doesn't mean it's failing for many other people. Why else is Mint the #6 distro on DistroWatch? Why else do MILLIONS of people use *nix on their desktop? If it has the problems you claim, it would not have hardly any desktop users.

Also, the last line of grrrlshapedthing's post sums up everything that's wrong with your outlook on Linux, Christof: "Sounds to me like you expected something out of Linux that Linux was just not ever going to provide! maybe you should look into a mac." (or continue using/suffering Windows)
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby red-e-made on Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:26 pm

Christ of 999,instead of trying to work everything out by yourself until you reached the point where you were completely fed up, and then came here to vent, you could have simply started by coming here (or the Ubuntu forums, for that matter) and asked for help. When someone here asked for your specs, and you provided them, but when asked for more information so you could be helped better, you decided instead to launch into another rant. Do you really want help, or an outlet for your frustrations?

When Windows or Linux comes already built into your computer, there is no tweaking required. And anytime you manually install an OS into hardware, tweaking will be required, whether you're talking about Linux or Windows. For someone whose "business relies on computers" you don't seem to grasp this basic concept. Or maybe you do, and were just annoyed that you couldn't just toss an OS into your machine and have everything working automatically without any effort on your part.

If you want help, we're happy to provide it. If you'd rather not bother - and not everyone has the time or patience - go buy a machine with a pre-installed OS.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby deadguy on Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:08 am

Christof999 wrote: Someone asked if I bought Mint.
Id like to adress this point, since whenever any user complains that linux is not working someone chimes in with this.


this is not the point I was trying to make.

the point I was trying to make is in the 3 posts above this one!
they just say it a lot better than I do :D
Last edited by deadguy on Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby D-EJ915 on Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:22 am

Also this guy has a setup very similar to yours: http://blog.tobias-olry.de/asus-m2n-e-vs-kubuntu-edgy/
updated the BIOS. After that everything worked (almost) flawlessly
Typical for aftermarket boards. My friend had to update the BIOS in his mobo before the computer would even boot with his cpu. Gotta think of these things sometimes, could not a linux problem but a hardware issue.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby saltyp on Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:33 am

Hey Christof,
As a support tech with experienc in NT and Linux environs I will offer you my opinion. I see many businesses useing Linux as an upfront cost saver. In Australia Microsoft SBS is a $670 hit on the pocket plus an additional $5000+ worth of hardware to run it adequately. Then you have the user liscense numbers to compete with. Server 2003 R2 is considerably more , plus the hardware costs (my head is still spinning at the cost of Longhorn!!!). But you get support. More support then you can hope for. And a wealth of local support. Does it run any better? Thats an argument I wont enter in to.
With no offence to the team here, I point my clients towards SLED 10 and Red Hat or Fedora Corporate versions. They are designed and set up to support business. In the same way that Microsoft , Dell and HP are. But you pay. Its business. And they recomend hardware configurations, often before they will support you.
You need to make a descision. Do you want to manage your business effectively or do you want to be your busuinesses full time IT support technician. I'll bet my life you dont have the time to do both.

I dont think I have ever given the OK to a migration to Linux as a sole Business/Domain OS without a lot of consultation and often some hardware expense. Check out Dells descision to ship pC's with Ubuntu. Do they support it commercially (at this point no) The irony is, not so long ago we saw the same problems in migrating from IBM/UNIX to NT/Microsoft. So you are on todays cutting edge. Persist!

My suggestion, pay someone to handle the heat on a LINUX migration Or pay for an OS that is supported in a commercial (mission critical) sense. The alternative is still a few years away. But those like the team here and others (PCLinux OS, Freespire, Sabyon etc) are paving the way.

Having said that, I have two very happy clients that elected to move to linux instead of updating their entire network hardware (desktops and all!) The idea is that they are still runnig their PIV celerons and a windows NT box more efficeintly then they were. Thus alowing them the time to save for a hardware upgrade (one they denied was inevitable). Heres hoping they become so used to the new environment and only have to upgrade their hardware nextyear.

At home I run Open SuSE 10.2 as the DHCP, Gateway, File and Print Server (upgraded progessively from 9.0) and Mint 4.0 on a high end gaming rig dual booting alongside XP 64 Bit. Not a hitch to this point. 2 other XP machines all sharing printers and stuff in a workgroup environ. (got an ASUS laptop that loves the LIME 4.0 dual XP home as well) Its been a LIME week here..lol

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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby Christof999 on Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:06 am

Hi,

I did googled all of my hardware to make sure it was compatible and confirmed it was. I even saw that Blog and created a boot cd and patched my bios. This is what makes it so frustrating, all my ducks were in order but I was still lacking basic functionality. And the thing that gets me is that Something that is broken on one distro, works on another, while the stuff that worked on the first, didn't on the second. It means that it is possible that it works on linux, but that for some reason every distro has things that don't work.

Im sorry if some of you were offended by my comments, certainly some of it was frustration. I had wanted Mint to work, and was disappointed it did not. I was especially disappointed since I can run Celena flawlessly. I hope the next version works better, or I will have to switch. I tried suse, and its grub was flawless, but no sound at all and no codecs.

I suppose I am not really getting my message across. Its not one of spite, but one from the common man. Linux does not advertise itself as a Car kit. Linux presents itself as a workable, ready to use, ready for the desktop OS. I have never seen a distro sport the slogan "Linux: You're just two weeks of tinkering away from heaven." Looking at distro watch, distros websites, linux slogans etc. they certainly promote themselves like they work well. Heres the excerpt from the Mint page "Linux Mint's purpose is to produce an elegant, up to date and comfortable GNU/Linux desktop distribution." And here from the FAQ

"Yes, definitely. We believe Linux is the best operating system on the market. There are more than 300 active Linux distributions and we're working hard at becoming the best alternative for your desktop. This is a tough competition as there are other great desktop operating systems and distributions out there. We have faith in the quality of our desktop and a lot of great ideas. If your computer is a PC and you have more than 512MB RAM you should try Linux Mint and see what you think about it. If you're running a 5 years old non-free operating system such as Microsoft Windows XP you should definitely be impressed."

So I suppose my frustration is not even with Linux developers for what I feel is over selling itself. My frustration is with people who keep claiming that linux final releases can be unusable, buggy and need weeks of tinkering, even though the distros themselves certainly promote their product as a very usable, easy product. I have not seen anywhere, even in the FAQ one single mention of having to tinker and post on forums as a basic requirement for using linux. But some individuals act like people should know that linux is a "Car kit". Well I sure do now, but really look at all the websites, it does not make that clear to people.


Anyways, I did check all my hardware and its listed as compatible, I have no idea why video would become garbled, and the computer would run slow, laggy and then freeze up.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby deadguy on Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:57 am

christof999 wrote:I was especially disappointed since I can run Celena flawlessly.


Ahhh, I did not know THIS.

then I think your solution is easy:

why not stick with Celena????????

nobody says you have to upgrade every time!


besides Celena just came out what, a month ago?


ok, so you tried Daryna it didn't like your hardware for whatever reason
and you don't want to try and fix it.

why not just stay with Celena for awhile if it "runs flawlessly" :?:
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby Christof999 on Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:33 am

Yes I would have stayed with Celena had I known I would run into big issues. I honestly did not think upgrading would cause my system to break and be unusable, it seems illogical. Anyways just because one thing works, doesn't excuse the new thing from not working. I'd rather see less releases of Linux if it meant that when Linux came out it actually worked flawlessly on everyones computers. Although flawlessly for Celena may be a bit of an exaggeration since I just reinstalled Celena after posting that message and got Disk boot failure No Operating system. Thus far I have spent a week running on live CDs since no one distro has managed to just install and work. Celena was working great but now I can't even get it to boot. I got suse to boot, but no sound. Mint has sound (on the live cd, flawed sound however) but won't boot. I don't understand why one distrobution can get something to work, while another can't. Why don't you guys all get together and just make one distribution that works instead of 100 that partially work? Or at least you could share your secrets with other developers so this stuff wouldn't happen.
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Re: I have ton say I am dissapointed with 4.0

Postby red-e-made on Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:30 pm

Christof999 wrote:I'd rather see less releases of Linux if it meant that when Linux came out it actually worked flawlessly on everyones computers. Although flawlessly for Celena may be a bit of an exaggeration since I just reinstalled Celena after posting that message and got Disk boot failure No Operating system. Thus far I have spent a week running on live CDs since no one distro has managed to just install and work. Celena was working great but now I can't even get it to boot. I got suse to boot, but no sound. Mint has sound (on the live cd, flawed sound however) but won't boot. I don't understand why one distrobution can get something to work, while another can't. Why don't you guys all get together and just make one distribution that works instead of 100 that partially work? Or at least you could share your secrets with other developers so this stuff wouldn't happen.


One more time:

1: Pre-installed OS's will always work on your machine, because they're already formatted by the people who installed them.

2: Installing an OS on a machine yourself - and that often includes upgrades (especially one that's taken as big a leap as was taken from Celena from Daryna) - will always require some effort on your part.

3. If you don't want to exert any effort in this regard, buy a machine with a pre-installed OS.

I'll hold back from going into a rant about the culture of total convenience that seems to reign over the Western world, but I will say that you shouldn't blame Linux developers for not being able to create an OS that runs flawlessly on every conceivable computer known to man. To borrow your car analogy, this is a bit like asking that engineers design an engine that can suit every vehicle on the face of the earth.
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