Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

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midas
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by midas »

Now Ubuntu Karmic...and probably following releases becoming so beautifully...is there or would there still be a marketshare for LinuxMint? I mean: is Ubuntu not 'secretly' looking out of the corners of their eyes to LinuxMint and gradually implementing our advantages? That would mean differentiating even more and faster from Ubuntu in order to preserve our identity and our marketshare. Just a thought :?
Linux Mint 17.3 Cinnamon (64 bits)
deleted

Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by deleted »

Given the choice, you see which choice I made... (LinuxMint) The only reason I updated was to get the new 2.6.29-31 kernels.
I guess I could have updated just the kernel, but I live on the edge. I chose Mint (to start with) so I wouldn't have to be on the bleeding edge. I like the polish it provided to an otherwise rough distro. If it wasn't for the kernel. I'd be staying put.
exploder
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by exploder »

Now Ubuntu Karmic...and probably following releases becoming so beautifully...is there or would there still be a marketshare for LinuxMint? I mean: is Ubuntu not 'secretly' looking out of the corners of their eyes to LinuxMint and gradually implementing our advantages? That would mean differentiating even more and faster from Ubuntu in order to preserve our identity and our marketshare. Just a though
Believe me, there is still a market share for LinuxMint. Ubuntu is just now using ideas that Clem has had in place for quite a few releases. Ubuntu has been pushed by the community for better artwork and they are finally delivering what they promised. I have been on the Ubuntu artwork mailing list for a long time, it took probably a year for the community to develop the new icon theme Ubuntu is using. The humanity icons are community developed and they went to great lengths to get those icons just perfect.

Ubuntu is trying to compete with the big players, so they have been working a lot harder to address quality concerns too. The rumour is that Karmic is laying the foundation for the next LTS release. The problem with operating system development is the different stages of development that all of the individual components are in when a new release is being built. Shuttleworth has been trying to get individual projects to sync there development cycles.

LinuxMint will always have market share because Clem will see something that is needed or desired, implement it and improve it. LinuxMint 8 will be an awesome release.
rhY

Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by rhY »

hinto wrote:I've installed Mint 7, then changed sources.list to point to Karmic.
I've installed Karmic then installed MintTools.

I've been running with both configurations since Karmic Alpha 2 on AMD Phenom x4 and Intel Core2 Quads (NVIDIA graphics) for primary development work in a heterogeneous (Wiindos, RHLinux, HPUX) work environment with no problems.
Give us a screenie!! :)
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by exploder »

The review does not do it justice. Ubuntu really did a good job on the boot experience! I could hardly believe they got all of that fixed because it was a mess through most of the alpha releases. There are small refinements all through the system and other than the current default wallpaper, the artwork is quite nice. Memory use on my system is better with Compiz on than it was with the last release turned off! Application launch is quick, everything is noticeably faster.

The "known issues" list is much shorter than it was for Jaunty and hopefully the developers will get most or all of these issues resolved by the final release. I was not at all impressed with Ubuntu's last two releases but Karmic is a winner in my opinion. Generally, if there is a problem my system will be one of the ones effected but I am not having any issues with Karmic.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by exploder »

Ubuntu has pushed out around 130 or so updates since the beta was released and things are getting better and better. I am real anxious to see what we will use for xsplash and gdm in Mint 8. I was very sceptical about xsplash at first but I can see the reasoning for it's use and it is the best bet for compatibility and providing an attractive boot experience. I see complaints about the small amount of text showing at boot and shut down but there are no errors and this is new. Given a little time I think there will be refinements made.

I read a review that said that Karmic did not offer many new features, the reviewer obviously did not know what he was talking about! Karmic is loaded with new technology and in my opinion is the Windows killer we had hoped for in 8.04. The start up experience is much better than it has ever been before, it is quick and looks good. You should see the video clips of the particle effect being used with xsplash! I would love to see Mint use this effect.

Memory use is outstanding! This is the first time I have ever kept Compiz enabled and my memory use is better than it was in Mint 7 with Compiz turned off. Being able to use the simple effects is important to be competitive with Windows 7 and the MacOS in my opinion. I was able to watch a movie on Fancast with Compiz enabled with no issues, this is a first for me.

I notice there are far less complaints about compatibility with graphics cards for this release! The Intel issue seems to be resolved and the open source drivers for older NVidea and ATI graphics cards seem to be working better this time around. Firefox 3.5 is playing pod casts better than it was. I really think Mozilla let Linux users down with the 3.5 release because of the regressions with multimedia playback and the way multimedia applications are associated with Firefox in Linux. Ubuntu like other distributions has had to make changes to Firefox to resolve multimedia issues.

We should benefit from basing off of Karmic because memory use is good to start with and we usually have a lower memory footprint because of the absence of Evolution and all its overhead. Mint Install is a vast improvement over the Ubuntu Software Center and people are already asking for features that we already have in place. Ubuntu does plan to make major changes to the Software Center for the LTS release and it will likely receive a complete overhaul from what one of the developers has said. I am getting really anxious for Mint 8!

Edit: I just read about something in the Software Center that could actually promote Linux use. By offering applications that you buy it offers an incentive for games to be developed for Linux. People often duel boot with Windows so they can still run their favourite games, if games were offered for purchase for Linux this might eliminate the need for Windows. I have nothing against anyone developing software and selling it for a reasonable price.We might need to look at offering software in this manor too.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by exploder »

There is currently a bug with Intel graphics but there is a work around. Martin-Éric Racine found and posted the solution.



Here, my work around for the issue has been to set the following in /etc/initramfs-tools/modules:

# List of modules that you want to include in your initramfs.
#
# Syntax: module_name [args ...]
#
# You must run update-initramfs(8) to effect this change.
#
# Examples:
#
# raid1
# sd_mod
intel_agp
i915 modeset=1

Once this has been configured, you need to run:

sudo dpkg-reconfigure linux-image-2.6.31-10-generic


The problem was this error would appear at start up and desktop effects could not be enabled. (The error was slightly different with my 8x graphics but you get the idea.)

[ 3.151433] [drm] Initialized drm 1.1.0 20060810
[ 3.159541] i915 0000:00:02.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
[ 3.159546] i915 0000:00:02.0: setting latency timer to 64
[ 3.159563] [drm:drm_fill_in_dev] *ERROR* Cannot initialize the agpgart module.
[ 3.159608] [drm:intelfb_restore] *ERROR* Failed to restore crtc configuration: -22
[ 3.159651] DRM: Fill_in_dev failed.
[ 3.159689] i915 0000:00:02.0: PCI INT A disabled
[ 3.159708] i915: probe of 0000:00:02.0 failed with error -22
[ 3.162053] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: Intel Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset
[ 3.162861] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: detected 32764K stolen memory
[ 3.167540] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: AGP aperture is 256M @ 0xe0000000

I have Intel 8x on-board graphics on my system but the work around resolved the issue with no ill effects that I have discovered. I added to the bug report to confirm the solution and asked that they please fix this so we do not have to work around the issue in the final release. I do not want this kind of issue in Mint 8, us Intel users went through enough in the last release to get our graphics cards working right.

Edit: After re-booting a couple of times the problem has returned.... I added to the bug report again. :(
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by ibm450 »

this is nice....could it become reality???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=408OfAJu ... r_embedded

:?:
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exploder
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by exploder »

this is nice....could it become reality???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=408OfAJu ... r_embedded
I would think so after seeing the particle effect being used.
rhY

Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by rhY »

It doesn't matter. Ubuntu is BROWN. Most of my clients will still ask for Windows 7. Unless I show them my Mint desktop with compiz cube and Win XP VM first.
deleted

Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by deleted »

..And now VMPlayer will compile with ther newer kernels.
The tools on the otherhand seem to be problematic for Linux hosts.
-H
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by darco »

exploder wrote:There is currently a bug with Intel graphics but there is a work around. Martin-Éric Racine found and posted the solution.



Here, my work around for the issue has been to set the following in /etc/initramfs-tools/modules:

# List of modules that you want to include in your initramfs.
#
# Syntax: module_name [args ...]
#
# You must run update-initramfs(8) to effect this change.
#
# Examples:
#
# raid1
# sd_mod
intel_agp
i915 modeset=1

Once this has been configured, you need to run:

sudo dpkg-reconfigure linux-image-2.6.31-10-generic


The problem was this error would appear at start up and desktop effects could not be enabled. (The error was slightly different with my 8x graphics but you get the idea.)

[ 3.151433] [drm] Initialized drm 1.1.0 20060810
[ 3.159541] i915 0000:00:02.0: PCI INT A -> GSI 16 (level, low) -> IRQ 16
[ 3.159546] i915 0000:00:02.0: setting latency timer to 64
[ 3.159563] [drm:drm_fill_in_dev] *ERROR* Cannot initialize the agpgart module.
[ 3.159608] [drm:intelfb_restore] *ERROR* Failed to restore crtc configuration: -22
[ 3.159651] DRM: Fill_in_dev failed.
[ 3.159689] i915 0000:00:02.0: PCI INT A disabled
[ 3.159708] i915: probe of 0000:00:02.0 failed with error -22
[ 3.162053] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: Intel Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset
[ 3.162861] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: detected 32764K stolen memory
[ 3.167540] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: AGP aperture is 256M @ 0xe0000000

I have Intel 8x on-board graphics on my system but the work around resolved the issue with no ill effects that I have discovered. I added to the bug report to confirm the solution and asked that they please fix this so we do not have to work around the issue in the final release. I do not want this kind of issue in Mint 8, us Intel users went through enough in the last release to get our graphics cards working right.

Edit: After re-booting a couple of times the problem has returned.... I added to the bug report again. :(
I saw that same error yesterday on boot up. Running an intel 945gm graphic chipset. I did an update yesterday and after a reboot I no longer saw that error. Just rebooted and still ok. Ill keep an eye out to see if it returns.
Overall, Beta is very nice and responsive.......Once we get Helena x64 running ext4 and I install on my main system, I'll be in heaven! (So tempted to install Beta over Gloria since we probably wont see x64 for at least 2 more months.....)

darco
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by exploder »

There might be a fix for the current Intel issue. Someone posted in the bug report that a new kernel update today has fixed the problem. I am waiting for confirmation on this before I put Karmic back on to resume testing. I can live with some bugs but my graphics card has to work right! I might grab a daily build and check out the kernel update.

Edit: The kernel has been updated to 2.6.31-12, still waiting for conformation on the Itel graphics issue. The gnome-power-manager package is supposed to be updated to 2.28.0-ubuntu3 to resolve issues with suspend not working. I had noticed my monitor never went into stand by, hopefully the updated package will resolve that as well.

Edit 2: The kernel update appears to resolve the problem for Intel 3100 graphics but people using the 915 graphics are still reporting problems.
bigos

Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by bigos »

exploder wrote:I ran Karmic in a virtual machine and would not even consider using it as a main OS at this point. :D You are right, it would be suicide! I have to wonder sometimes if Microsoft is paying the Ubuntu developers to put this stuff together. :mrgreen:
You might be right. Their Beta is a very early alpha. Installer crashes, if you manage to install using debian's terminal based installer GUI freezes within minutes of logging in. :oops:
bigos

Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by bigos »

exploder wrote:I grabbed today's daily build of Karmic and I must say that there has been some amazing progress! The fsck problem seems completely fixed! Empathy is connecting to Yahoo chat now and working.My computer is using very little RAM even with Compiz enabled, that is a first for my machine! Some of the new artwork doesn't look half bad. The new theme and icons actually look pretty good. The default wallpaper looks grainy but they included some pretty decent looking wallpaper options and I found one that looks nice with everything else.

Multimedia playback is working good, pod casts now play good in Firefox 3.5.3. The Intel issue appears to be fixed, now flash works in full screen without having to jump through hoops! I am really surprised because the system runs well and there is still plenty of development time left to work on remaining bugs. Ubuntu wants to be more competitive with MacOS and with the improvements they have made and a better default wallpaper they might just be able to meet that goal. The brown they used in the default theme actually looks pretty decent and it works better with a variety of wallpaper choices. The Humanity icons look much better than the icons Ubuntu was using, especially the folder icons.

The slide show that was added to the installer looks good, it really adds a touch of professionalism to the installer. I can sleep better now knowing that the base for our next set of releases if finally looking stable! :D

Edit: I have found a couple of remaining quirks. Every once in a while xsplash does not display. Once was because I forgot to close Firefox, kind of odd but it is still a beta. One of the applets, (forget which one) crashes every now and then. Totem will freeze up if I try and close it when I have music playing. These bugs are very minor compared to earlier betas and I should think that there is plenty of time to get these resolved. The fsck bug was one of the main things I was watching and it is fixed now.
I also have tried today's daily build, it wouldn't even install. During the installation process a window with lots of question marks pops up and installation freezes. Yesterday I have tried first beta where installer at least worked, but GUI would freeze within minutes from logging in. At the moment Karmic is completely unusable on my system unless it is run in a virtual machine. I have Intel graphic chipset so for me it wasn't fixed. I consider giving up on Ubuntu and switching to other distro.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by exploder »

You might be right. Their Beta is a very early alpha. Installer crashes, if you manage to install using debian's terminal based installer GUI freezes within minutes of logging in. :oops:
The beta looks more like an alpha release right now. Lots of breakage and lots of bug reports! Intel graphics is all messed up, some NVidea users are having extremely slow boot times, power management is not working, suspend is no longer working, and the list goes on and on.... Things were not so bad until all of the updates poured in right after the beta was released.

Someone posted this.

04 = alpha
10 =beta
LTS = release

I kind of wonder if that guy was joking or not? It gives me a bad feeling that there are so many serious bugs this close to the final release date.
midas
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by midas »

Oh gosh...I keep my fingers crossed for the next Mint-release. In the worst case we have to postpone the next release with a few months I guess. But first wait for the final Karmic-release. Perhaps Ubuntu will come up with a miracle in these last remaining weeks... :?

In my experience it was like:

04 = beta
10 = alpha
LTS = final after 2 or 3 months
Linux Mint 17.3 Cinnamon (64 bits)
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by waldo »

exploder wrote:There might be a fix for the current Intel issue. Someone posted in the bug report that a new kernel update today has fixed the problem. I am waiting for confirmation on this before I put Karmic back on to resume testing. I can live with some bugs but my graphics card has to work right! I might grab a daily build and check out the kernel update.

Edit: The kernel has been updated to 2.6.31-12, still waiting for conformation on the Itel graphics issue. The gnome-power-manager package is supposed to be updated to 2.28.0-ubuntu3 to resolve issues with suspend not working. I had noticed my monitor never went into stand by, hopefully the updated package will resolve that as well.

Edit 2: The kernel update appears to resolve the problem for Intel 3100 graphics but people using the 915 graphics are still reporting problems.
Yesterday I did the 2.6.31-12 update, and this morning I was surprised to find another very large update waiting that even required a reboot. That's a total of three very large updates since the beta release. One can only hope that this becomes untangled, or that they decide they need to delay the release. Obviously this is not the way they planned it.

I'm not experiencing any graphics problems, nVidia, proprietary driver.
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 Alpha 6-Nice Features

Post by exploder »

Ubuntu will release Karmic as planned, bug filled or not. The only release Ubuntu ever delayed was their first LTS release, it was unusable and they had no other choice but to delay the release.

I have been looking at quality practices of various distributions to see who is doing things right. These are my opinions, feel free to disagree or investigate and form your own opinions.

OpenSuse develops in what I would describe as conservative manor. New technology and features are used when they have been around and tested for a while. Milestone releases are for testing and are not upgradeable by default, you can upgrade now from one milestone to another but this is something new. Milestone releases are snap shots, you test them, report bugs, the bugs are worked on and the next snap shot is released. With 8 milestone releases and 2 release candidates I would think that the final release should be of high quality. OpenSuse also increased their development cycle to 8 months. I am interested in seeing the results of OpenSuse's methods. Milestone 8 runs like a final release, there are only minor bugs remaining in their KDE release.

PCLinuxOS has a policy of only releasing when it's ready. PCLinuxOS may be based on Mandriva but they will compile packages from source and incorporate bug fixes as needed and incorporate them into their packages to get things working right. PCLinuxOS compiles, builds and maintains all of their packages. Texstar has always been noted as being a perfectionist and I will say he is picky and puts an emphasis on performance. PCLinuxOS has a huge following and is often sited as having very good hardware compatibility. If you examine PCLinuxOS you will find that the kernel is custom built and not necessarily the latest, greatest, this all relates to maximizing hardware compatibility. Graphics card drivers are not always the latest too, again hardware compatibility takes priority. I would have to rate PCLinuxOS's quality very high. This is a very time consuming course of development and it takes a lot of volunteer packagers to build and maintain the distribution.

I tested upgrading PCLinuxOS 2009.2 with the new KDE 4.3.1 packages, believe it or not the system upgraded with no breakage! I mention this because to me that is quite an accomplishment. I have never seen such a drastic upgrade succeed before. This really is a true rolling release!

These two distributions seemed good examples of higher quality standards because each is going to some lengths to ensure they build a release that has hardware compatibility and is as bug free as possible. I understand that no software is perfect. :) Ubuntu seems to overlook quality in favor of sensationalism. Lets face it, most of us want a running stable system first and new technology added as it becomes mature. Ubuntu Karmic is at the beta stage of development with a release candidate approaching and a final release due the end of this month. Karmic's current daily build barely qualifies as an alpha release to me. The Ubuntu development forum is a flurry of bug related posts.

Reporting a bug in Ubuntu is almost pointless, you get the usual favorite bug and we are a small group responses or the bug is simply ignored or even added to a completely unrelated bug. Once a new version of Ubuntu is released it is pretty much abandoned and it's on to the next release. Security issues are fixed and nothing more. I think Ubuntu needs to take a more conservative approach to development and concentrate more on the quality of what they release. Policies need to be changed to address introducing bug fix releases of popular packages so they make it into the main repos. I do not think that Ubuntu should be as conservative as Debian by any means but they are obviously taking on more than they can handle.

Mark Shuttleworth said that the next LTS release would not suck, does that mean that what we get before it will? I think the releases that come before the LTS release are betas preparing the way for the LTS release. I am not able to come to any other conclusion because of the amount of bugs that are found and left in the releases before the LTS. Dell uses the LTS and now OpenSuse from what I have read, that kind of goes along with the conclusions that I am drawing.

I am trying to understand development processes, goals and standards. Our standards are high but we build off of a Ubuntu base and have to deal with all of it's shortcomings and provide support for our releases. I wonder if we are too dependent on Ubuntu? We have things in place to keep what we add from breaking and I wonder if we could go further to incorporate known bug fixes into our releases and preserve the changes we make? Could we for example, build our own kernel for better hardware compatibility? Warren Woffard built his own kernel when he was using a Ubuntu base for Mepis. We do not currently have the manpower to build all of our packages, that would take a lot of people to accomplish but could we build packages to fix bugs and upgrade popular software?

Sorry for the gigantic post! My mind has been on the quality of our releases all day. :)
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