Why do new people give up on Linux?

[Husse]

Hardware and drivers are ridiculously hard to deal with unless the kernel just happens to support what you already have out of the box.

Agreed, but maybe not ridiculously
On the other hand if there is kernel support it is ridiculously simple - I was very pleasantly surprised when I did not have to install anything extra to get my Brother printer working (To get the correct driver this model needs to install a Brother Linux printer driver, needs a bit of hands on but not really hard to do)

[shane]

On the other hand if there is kernel support it is ridiculously simple

This is why I am a very strong proponent to the 'vote with your wallet' idea. Only buy hardware that sticks to standards and provides good Linux support. It is the only real way we have a voice in front of corporations. They want our money, no matter how small the market share is.

[Kendall]

This is why I am a very strong proponent to the 'vote with your wallet' idea. Only buy hardware that sticks to standards and provides good Linux support. It is the only real way we have a voice in front of corporations. They want our money, no matter how small the market share is.

I agree 100%. I no longer consider purchasing a system that doesn't at least have the option of getting Linux preinstalled. Regarding peripherals, I do my research and purchase what is known to work.

[clgy15]

Personally I see the potential in Linux. If a new company were to start up at some college (Maybe UVA, cause thats where I go) or in a big city that professionally offered a version of linux. I know that there are some commercial versions out there but I mean like really creating a version of linux that is extremly stable and top of the line. My thought is that Linux will have to be different than Windows or Mac for the same exact reason that Mac is different then Windows. The OS industry is an Oligopoly and to make money in that kind of market you have to provide a product thats universal in most of its use but provides advantages that the other companies cant provide. The greatest example of the Oligopoly market is the Cell phone Industry. You all know how to use a cell phone. However each of the companies offer something different. Linux most likely is what most would call the professional OS. The idea with linux is for everything to be user controlled and defined if wanted by the user. Alot of people do not want that, what they want is better than Windows but just as easy to use.
Linux has so much potential because there are so many versions of it out there. If the company I talked about was created, I would bet ten to one they would offer different versions of Linux for different kinds of people. Like Students, Programmers, Business and especially the home. Because all they would have to do is find the version of linux that best fits those needs and implement it in their specific coding. Right now Linux is a very large network of ideas and systems that are great at doing everything in general and then they really are good at specific things. Its ready to be connected and for versions of Linux to merge together created the same great basic functionality but all the different things the different verisons could do together in one OS. If this company could provide these kinds of OSs with deals with computer manufacturers I have no doubt in my mind that this company would become the next Windows. The finished linux product is out there. We just have to link all these great ideas together in one distribution and it would be a smashing hit.

[chris0101]

If you mean that 45% is lost in "transit" you are wrong - probably no more than 10 % and mostly well below that.

Updating post. Actually, it is 45% in water, about 5-12% in power.

But the total loss if you produce electricity with steam is in that order or even higher, unless you can use the surplus heat in district heating piping it round a city

Here in North America, our infrastructure is very outdated and our politicians do not have their priorities right. I know that Canada is behind on telecommunications, research, and many other fields of technology. I doubt that any steam is retransmitted here. Not uncommonly these days when power plants are built, studies are done to see how nearby lakes and rivers would be affected if they had hot water constantly discharged into them. I hear in the some parts of the US, that isn't even done.

It's possible ... it's just that public awareness is low and that our leaders don't have our priorities right nor our best interests at heart.

[chris0101]

This is why I am a very strong proponent to the 'vote with your wallet' idea. Only buy hardware that sticks to standards and provides good Linux support. It is the only real way we have a voice in front of corporations. They want our money, no matter how small the market share is.

I agree 100%. I no longer consider purchasing a system that doesn't at least have the option of getting Linux preinstalled. Regarding peripherals, I do my research and purchase what is known to work.

The only alternative is to build your own PC from ground up like I do. Of course, that entails researching all of the parts.

But that is why I want to increase Linux's market share; so that manufacturers can justifiably spend the time and money to support Linux as well as Windows and Mac, breaking the closed source duopoly.

[MALsPa]

This is why I am a very strong proponent to the 'vote with your wallet' idea. Only buy hardware that sticks to standards and provides good Linux support. It is the only real way we have a voice in front of corporations. They want our money, no matter how small the market share is.

I think this is a great idea, too.

Any new computer I purchase will be one that already comes with Linux. Assuming that I buy a new one -- it's better sometimes to just pick up a used computer somewhere and install Linux on it, especially if you're short on cash!

A lot more new users would stick with Linux, I think, if they started out with a Linux-preinstalled machine. Doing so made my introduction to Linux quite pleasant.

[Webtest]

This is my first revisit to Linux in many years, aside from briefly playing with an Ubuntu LiveCD about 3 years ago. Right now I just want a LiveCD ROM system for secure banking functions. I'll patiently wait for the 10 minute boot time to get the security of a virus-proof ROM system.

Why won't I convert to Linux (or even dual boot!)?

1) I've never found an ops translator ... Windows to Linux. I spent over 2 hours today trying to create desktop shortcuts to various Internet websites with only very limited success. It seems like a pretty basic requirement, and I can do that with a couple of clicks in XP. After searching the "Official User Guide", the Mint forums, and the net in general for over an hour, I am still no closer to being able to do the job. Is that because I only know to call them 'shortcuts'?

2) Too many mysterious things going on. I accidentally started a download of a huge doc file, which was OK except that I never got a prompt as to where to store the file as I expected from my Windows experience. The dumb file just started downloading, and since I only had an 8 MEGabyte flash card mounted, where the hell was all the data going? This LiveCD system had better NOT be messing with my (unmounted?) hard drive! I just don't have time to explore everything. The tutorials I've found just aren't much help at translating my comprehensive and valuable Windows (3.1/95/98/ME/XP) language skills.

3) SOURCE CODE IS AVAILABLE FOR EVERYTHING! IF THERE IS SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE, CHANGE IT! I am a reasonably competent programmer in various languages ... Hey, if Thunderbird scrambles everything in the Favorite Folders pane, why don't I just figure out how they are written and have them ordered the way I want them! Well, looking at the most recent Thunderbird release source package, there are over 44,000 files, and it seems as though none of those files has the phrase "Favorite Folders" in them. It just isn't worth the effort to even figure out where to begin, so I'll keep grumbling at Thunderbird.

4) I write a LOT of macros for Excel in MS VBA (Visual Basic for Applications). It may not be the cleanest language in the world, but it is far less cryptic than the Open Office spreadsheet language. I actually did manage to write a few routines, but nowhere did I find the type of documentation and examples that are in some versions of Excel, as poor as they are.

5) When I click on "Help" in the File Browser window (to try to figure out how to create shortcuts) I get a popup that says: Unable to load page ... The requested URI "ghelp:user-guide#gosnautilus-1" is invalid. What help is that???

6) The language in this distribution is "British English", so the spelling checker keeps barfing when I type "favorite" instead of "favourite". Now I'm going to have to figure out how to switch the language to "American English". Oh joy ... another problem to solve.

7) When you say "Windows" ... that covers a huge piece of the action on a 'regular' PC. When you say "Linux", that only covers the guts which you mostly don't have to deal with anyway. The user interface? ... oh, are you using KDE or Gnome or terminal or whatever? The file interface? Oh, are you using Nautilus, or something else? There are just too many variants and it gets way confusing. When I click on a ".txt" file, why does Linux ask me if I want to 'run' it or 'display its contents'? If I choose to 'run' it, what application will it be sent to?

Yes, being well-versed in Windows is a BIG cause of frustration when trying to use Linux. There is just too much frustration not being able to do 'easy' tasks, like create shortcuts and correctly spell "favorite" and open txt files.

HOWEVER ... I was truly amazed at how easy it was to fetch the ISO file from the Linux Mint FTP site and burn a bootable LiveCD system that really works as a browser machine on the very first try. It is something I will have fun playing with, and I will learn how to burn a customized LiveCD with my favorite links and and "American English" dictionary and with the correct time zone installed and without the dreaded "Install Linux Mint 8" shortcut! (However, I may eventually put a 'drive drawer' in this machine for a separate Linux drive)

Blessings in abundance, all the best, and ENJOY!
Art in Carlisle, PA USA

[shane]

@Webtest

Even Linus Torvalds (the creator of Linux) was once a Linux n00b Like anything new, the willingness to learn is the first step.

[Leppie]

1) I've never found an ops translator ... Windows to Linux. I spent over 2 hours today trying to create desktop shortcuts to various Internet websites with only very limited success. It seems like a pretty basic requirement, and I can do that with a couple of clicks in XP. After searching the "Official User Guide", the Mint forums, and the net in general for over an hour, I am still no closer to being able to do the job. Is that because I only know to call them 'shortcuts'?

when i install linux for windows users, i usually create shortcuts (symbolic links) to their windows dekstops and documents folders.

2) Too many mysterious things going on. I accidentally started a download of a huge doc file, which was OK except that I never got a prompt as to where to store the file as I expected from my Windows experience. The dumb file just started downloading, and since I only had an 8 MEGabyte flash card mounted, where the hell was all the data going? This LiveCD system had better NOT be messing with my (unmounted?) hard drive! I just don't have time to explore everything. The tutorials I've found just aren't much help at translating my comprehensive and valuable Windows (3.1/95/98/ME/XP) language skills.

if you're using firefox, then you can change the "save to" default destination and you can have it prompt for the location for each download. this btw is exactly the same for the windows version (i use both as my girlfriend still uses windows for other reasons).

3) SOURCE CODE IS AVAILABLE FOR EVERYTHING! IF THERE IS SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE, CHANGE IT! I am a reasonably competent programmer in various languages ... Hey, if Thunderbird scrambles everything in the Favorite Folders pane, why don't I just figure out how they are written and have them ordered the way I want them! Well, looking at the most recent Thunderbird release source package, there are over 44,000 files, and it seems as though none of those files has the phrase "Favorite Folders" in them. It just isn't worth the effort to even figure out where to begin, so I'll keep grumbling at Thunderbird.

mozilla applications usually are highly configurable. have you tried going through their faq's at the mozilla sites?

5) When I click on "Help" in the File Browser window (to try to figure out how to create shortcuts) I get a popup that says: Unable to load page ... The requested URI "ghelp:user-guide#gosnautilus-1" is invalid. What help is that???

most microsoft help is also retrieved from the internet. if you're not connected to the internet, you still have all your man pages.

6) The language in this distribution is "British English", so the spelling checker keeps barfing when I type "favorite" instead of "favourite". Now I'm going to have to figure out how to switch the language to "American English". Oh joy ... another problem to solve.

go to Menu>Control Center>System> Language Support. change the default language to whatever you like (you actually could've done that already during the installation if you installed to your harddisk) and add as many system languages as you wish (i've got about 6 installed on my system). for every language you choose, packages will be installed for all applications that support the chosen language. so adding several languages and having a lot of applications installed my result in a long wait to apply the new settings as all the packages need to be downloaded and installed.

7) When you say "Windows" ... that covers a huge piece of the action on a 'regular' PC. When you say "Linux", that only covers the guts which you mostly don't have to deal with anyway. The user interface? ... oh, are you using KDE or Gnome or terminal or whatever? The file interface? Oh, are you using Nautilus, or something else? There are just too many variants and it gets way confusing. When I click on a ".txt" file, why does Linux ask me if I want to 'run' it or 'display its contents'? If I choose to 'run' it, what application will it be sent to?

this is called freedom of choice. the user can actually choose what interface, applications, etc. he/she prefers. you can always choose to give up on this freedom (hence use windows) if you can't handle it.

Yes, being well-versed in Windows is a BIG cause of frustration when trying to use Linux. There is just too much frustration not being able to do 'easy' tasks, like create shortcuts and correctly spell "favorite" and open txt files.

HOWEVER ... I was truly amazed at how easy it was to fetch the ISO file from the Linux Mint FTP site and burn a bootable LiveCD system that really works as a browser machine on the very first try. It is something I will have fun playing with, and I will learn how to burn a customized LiveCD with my favorite links and and "American English" dictionary and with the correct time zone installed and without the dreaded "Install Linux Mint 8" shortcut! (However, I may eventually put a 'drive drawer' in this machine for a separate Linux drive)

i am actually quite amazed by the fact that the language thing puts you off that much. windows systems come in 1 language only and can only be changed if the mui disk was provided or purchased. in linux this is already present in your system.
and you can find literally hundreds of thousands of howtos and guides on the internet for most things you want to do in linux. search enginges are actually quite good nowadays...

[altair4]

I spent over 2 hours today trying to create desktop shortcuts to various Internet websites with only very limited success. It seems like a pretty basic requirement, and I can do that with a couple of clicks in XP. After searching the "Official User Guide", the Mint forums, and the net in general for over an hour, I am still no closer to being able to do the job. Is that because I only know to call them 'shortcuts'?

They're called links.

Fast way ( if you're using Firefox ): Look at the url bar as you read this post. Next to http://forums.linuxmint.com ...... there is a little Mint Icon. Select it with your mouse and drag it to your desktop.

EDIT: Almost as fast way example:
Right click the desktop
Select "Create Launcher"
Type: Location
Name: Google
Command: http://www.google.com
Click on OK

Hard Core Way Example:

Open an editor and create something like this:

Code: Select all

[Desktop Entry]
Encoding=UTF-8
Name=LinkToGoogle
Type=Link
URL=http://www.google.com
Icon=gnome-fs-bookmark

Save it as: /home/altair/Desktop/LinkToGoogle.desktop
Edit by Husse: /home/your_name/Desktop/LinkToGoogle.desktop

To be honest I've forgotten how Windows / IE does this.

[DrHu]

Why won't I convert to Linux (or even dual boot!)?

1) I've never found an ops translator ... Windows to Linux. I spent over 2 hours today trying to create desktop shortcuts to various Internet websites with only very limited success. It seems like a pretty basic requirement, and I can do that with a couple of clicks in XP

I've never found an ops translator ... Windows to Linux.
I don't know what an ops translator is, unless you perhaps/possibly/might mean ops (as operations)
You will also never find a Linux to Windows translator (via Microsoft) or a MAC to Windows translator, for file system formats that are not already in windows
Is that only because Microsoft is in charge ?

7) When you say "Windows" ... that covers a huge piece of the action on a 'regular' PC. When you say "Linux", that only covers the guts which you mostly don't have to deal with anyway. The user interface? ... oh, are you using KDE or Gnome or terminal or whatever? The file interface? Oh, are you using Nautilus, or something else? There are just too many variants and it gets way confusing. When I click on a ".txt" file, why does Linux ask me if I want to 'run' it or 'display its contents'? If I choose to 'run' it, what application will it be sent to?

When you say "Linux", that only covers the guts which you mostly don't have to deal with anyway...
That is a profound misunderstanding of a Linux distribution, since it would also include a desktop and applications
There are just too many variants and it gets way confusing..
Pick one, use one, understand enough of one to be functional
I am sure, in fact I know that many windows OS users who moved from Xp to Vista were way too confused to get anywhere on that system, hence (and apart from the multiple device driver issues), they happily downgraded to Xp or went back to Xp on their own

I think this (item 7) is the only real complaint in the whole list

• --and it only indicates that Windows is not Linux and Linux is not Windows[/b]
  http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
  
  The biggest reason you should or any company should consider Linux vis-a-vis windows is to avoid vendor lock-in
  --it's how software vendors make their money, just look at intuit (with Quickbooks), Microsoft with their OS and Office suites, or exchange mail server or Adobe with photoshop or dreamweaver or now flash or Oracle with their DB (Database) when the OSS alternatives can be just as good (depending on the services needed), like..
  http://www.postgresql.org/
  
  If you want to avoid vendor lock-in, you choose Linux and OSS applications, for yourself or the company

[deleted]

There was a Mac user who needed to replace a Mac. I talked to him about an HP Laptop + Linux Mint as the replacement.
First there was some nvidia incompatibilities where it show something like 6 very small screens when it booted. That got sorted out with google and xorg tweaks. However, since he's a Mac guy, he has Airport as his networking. NetworkManager is dropping his connections once in a while, so he's using wicd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicd) and he's getting better results (not perfect).
He loves the "grassroots" of Linux (and Mint) but other few "nits" (like iTunes/DAAP) keep getting in the way...

I keep encouraging him.... but we'll see.
-Hinto

[Webtest]

Leppie wrote:
if you're using firefox, then you can change the "save to" default destination and you can have it prompt for the location for each download.

Thanks for this info ... that will be one of the configuration changes I shoot for when I try to burn a new LiveCD system. I think the default installing Firefox on Windows is to ask for a destination.

Leppie wrote:
mozilla applications usually are highly configurable. have you tried going through their faq's at the mozilla sites?

The Thunderbird "Favorite Folders" pane sort order is not configurable ... at least I couldn't find any way after several hours of searching and posting. The main Folders pane can be set to a particular order, but the only way I found to do that was to delete all the accounts and recreate them in the order you want them to appear in the pane. The point I was trying to make is that "Open Source" is not necessarily an advantage ... 44,000 files makes for a very daunting task. I posted on the Thunderbird developers site, and the response was "live with it".

Leppie wrote:
most microsoft help is also retrieved from the internet. if you're not connected to the internet, you still have all your man pages.

I AM connected to the Internet ... I had no problems getting Mint up and running as a Web Browser system, and I am on this forum on my Mint LiveCD system! It is a little disconcerting to hit that beautiful menu "Help" item in various windows only to have it barf.

Leppie wrote:
the user can actually choose what interface, applications, etc. he/she prefers. you can always choose to give up on this freedom (hence use windows) if you can't handle it.

Tell me you've never seen a topic on the Newbie forum where in about the 3rd post the 'helper' says: "you must be using (whatever ap) ... I use (other ap) and my instructions were for that". It is just a source of confusion for a Newbie. Yes, it is nice to have choices, but it drives up the learning curve in several ways. It might even be nice to have a "standard" Newbie system so that everybody (newbies and helpers) are on the same wavelength when communicating. Like "try learning on this system first" so that everyone knows what the configuration is. I'll always make it very plain that I am using a "LinuxMint-8.iso" LiveCD.

Leppie wrote:
i am actually quite amazed by the fact that the language thing puts you off that much.

Hey, it doesn't really. I scratched my (bald) head for awhile wondering why the spell checker flagged 'favorite' (I'm a pretty good speller) and chuckled when I finally figured it out. I actually have seen that before in some previous incarnation.

Thanks Leppie for your comments. I appreciate the time you took to address these issues.

altair4 wrote:
They're called links.
Fast way ... Almost as fast way example: ... Hard Core Way Example:

Thank you very much for these most helpful examples. I'll give them all a try.

DrHu wrote:
I don't know what an ops translator is, unless you perhaps/possibly/might mean ops (as operations)

Sorry I wasn't clear ... I'm looking for the Rosetta Stone for translating Windows functions that I am proficient with (Create Shortcuts, etc.) to equivalent Linux functions, just as 'altair4' did for "Shortcuts/Links" above.

DrHu wrote:
That is a profound misunderstanding of a Linux distribution, since it would also include a desktop and applications

From my perspective, "Linux" proper is just foundation software to enable an infinite variety of applications. Gnome is an application. KDE is an application. Nautilus is an application. ... etc. This 'infinite variety' is the issue that makes Linux difficult to get started with. It seems as though everyone is making a different choice for some function, and assumes that everyone else has made the same choice. It looks like vanilla Mint-8 (LinuxMint-8.iso) is a good workable distribution to learn on, so that's what I'm doing! I hope all you 'helpers' know what components are in that system when you see my posts! Is it enough to prefix my questions with "LinuxMint-8.iso"?

All of your points are well taken, DrHu, and I avoid MegaShaft as much as possible, hence Firefox, Thunderbird, and a total avoidance of IE on any of my machines. I intend to get to the point where I have a convenient LiveCD system that meets my need for secure Web operations, and maybe even a real Linux Mint system besides!

Thank you all for your gracious assistance and comments regarding my post.
Blessings in abundance, all the best, and ENJOY!
Art in Carlisle PA USA

[Leppie]

Thanks for this info ... that will be one of the configuration changes I shoot for when I try to burn a new LiveCD system. I think the default installing Firefox on Windows is to ask for a destination.

you're welcome. we're here to help each other. btw, the default download setting is to download without asking where to save (just prompts if you want to open or save) but will not prompt you for the download location (default is set to desktop). unless they changed these settings in 3.6.

The Thunderbird "Favorite Folders" pane sort order is not configurable ... at least I couldn't find any way after several hours of searching and posting. The main Folders pane can be set to a particular order, but the only way I found to do that was to delete all the accounts and recreate them in the order you want them to appear in the pane.

as you most probably already suspected, i don't use tb .. however maybe this link could point you in the right direction: http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla_mess ... _messaging

The point I was trying to make is that "Open Source" is not necessarily an advantage ... 44,000 files makes for a very daunting task. I posted on the Thunderbird developers site, and the response was "live with it".

unfortunately some "organizations" have made it a habit to adapt some kind of "elitism" and "user unfriendly" attitude. especially developers seem to be good at the latter...

I AM connected to the Internet ... I had no problems getting Mint up and running as a Web Browser system, and I am on this forum on my Mint LiveCD system! It is a little disconcerting to hit that beautiful menu "Help" item in various windows only to have it barf.

if that is not working, you may want to post on the forum about this. it may be easily solved, or it may be a bug as well.

Tell me you've never seen a topic on the Newbie forum where in about the 3rd post the 'helper' says: "you must be using (whatever ap) ... I use (other ap) and my instructions were for that". It is just a source of confusion for a Newbie. Yes, it is nice to have choices, but it drives up the learning curve in several ways. It might even be nice to have a "standard" Newbie system so that everybody (newbies and helpers) are on the same wavelength when communicating. Like "try learning on this system first" so that everyone knows what the configuration is. I'll always make it very plain that I am using a "LinuxMint-8.iso" LiveCD.

even using the livecd, you will often find there's alternatives. even if not present on the livecd, you can still install applications you like.

Hey, it doesn't really. I scratched my (bald) head for awhile wondering why the spell checker flagged 'favorite' (I'm a pretty good speller) and chuckled when I finally figured it out. I actually have seen that before in some previous incarnation.

haha, i usually have the opposite as I'm used to writing in British English and spell checkers usually mark things as wrong (like your example favourite, or colour, etc.) as they are set to US English.

From my perspective, "Linux" proper is just foundation software to enable an infinite variety of applications.

to be exact, linux only refers to the kernel. the whole system is therefore normally referred to as a "linux system" or "linux distribution".

Gnome is an application. KDE is an application. Nautilus is an application. ... etc.

even windows is divided in all these applications. the difference is that most of them are not that distinctly seperated, or not seperated at all. nobody prohibits you the use of midnight commander instead of (internet) explorer, however unlike in most linux systems explorer cannot be removed from the windows system if you decide not to use it.

This 'infinite variety' is the issue that makes Linux difficult to get started with. It seems as though everyone is making a different choice for some function, and assumes that everyone else has made the same choice.

i'm sure that even for you one day this infinite variety will be one of the big pro's of Mint
even though at start it may seem a bit confusing. but if you persist a bit, you will soon find it all makes sense.

All of your points are well taken, DrHu, and I avoid MegaShaft as much as possible, hence Firefox, Thunderbird, and a total avoidance of IE on any of my machines. I intend to get to the point where I have a convenient LiveCD system that meets my need for secure Web operations, and maybe even a real Linux Mint system besides!

if you want to keep your settings and all, you may actually want to install to harddrive. this will drastically increase the speed of your system and all changes you make will be saved without extra effort for future use.

[AndrewH]

I just finished setting up a Linux Mint machine for use as a media center hooked to my TV. I was surprised to find out Netflix and ABC.com don't support Linux.

Of course Netflix is in bed with Microsoft, since they use Silverlight, but it was still a "confused?" moment. Until today, I never knew that webpages could be OS specific.

I'm not giving up on Linux, but I could see this as a large issue for some.

[deleted]

Silverlight on Linux:

http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

-H

[jpete]

Silverlight on Linux:

http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

-H

I'm sure I did something wrong. But Moonlight doesn't work for me.

[AndrewH]

Silverlight on Linux:

http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

Thanks! Apparently it comes pre-installed with Mint 8 64-bit, too.

Though Netflix still won't work:
http://www.netflix.com/WiMessage?msg=51

[markfiend]

Silverlight on Linux:

http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

-H

Heh. I completely removed mono from my Mint system.