Linux is Not Windows

[scorp123]

Either that or they are locking them as fast as I can post.

Well, if they are locking your threads then you are definitely doing something wrong ... Maybe you should work on your style? Trust me, I know what I am speaking of .... ask the others here, they know me too well --- hehehehe

[scorp123]

Just seems like you have so many more users over there ...

Oh yes!! Definitely. They have many more admins and forum mods too. I found the Ubuntu forums to be quite comfortable and pleasing place in the past 2.5 years since my departure from here

[FedoraRefugee]

Either that or they are locking them as fast as I can post.

Well, if they are locking your threads then you are definitely doing something wrong ... Maybe you should work on your style? Trust me, I know what I am speaking of .... ask the others here, they know me too well --- hehehehe

What, you are supposed to be some kind of flamer? Maybe I should go hide under the bed.

Trust me, my style has gotten me by just fine so far. Maybe I will see you over in that Ubuntu zoo sometime, huh?

[scorp123]

What, you are supposed to be some kind of flamer?

Based on the many many many complaints Clem here (yes, the Clem here ...) supposedly was getting back in 2007 ... yes!? It seems so. But you know --and it's quite funny-- I have not changed one little bit. And over at the Ubuntu forums the admins and mods there never ever had any problem whatsoever with me. So I guess the problem is not with me but rather with some weirdo users Linux Mint keeps attracting? I remember one particular thread where one guy thought he could commandeer me around: "I am your customer, support me, damn it!!" .... I of course had a different opinion about such matters, LOL. But guess who ended up getting the blame? Me.

Such nonsense never happened to me on the Ubuntu forum.

[FedoraRefugee]

What, you are supposed to be some kind of flamer?

Based on the many many many complaints Clem here (yes, the Clem here ...) supposedly was getting back in 2007 ... yes!? It seems so. But you know --and it's quite funny-- I have not changed one little bit. And over at the Ubuntu forums the admins and mods there never ever had any problem whatsoever with me. So I guess the problem is not with me but rather with some weirdo users Linux Mint keeps attracting? I remember one particular thread where one guy thought he could commandeer me around: "I am your customer, support me, damn it!!" .... I of course had a different opinion about such matters, LOL. But guess who ended up getting the blame? Me.

Such nonsense never happened to me on the Ubuntu forum.

Lol! I had the same problem over at Fedora forum! I come over here and they make me the official noob welcoming committee! Go figure!

You should stick around a bit, it might be fun.

[scorp123]

You should stick around a bit, it might be fun.

I kinda doubt that. ... In my experience Linux Mint attracts some really strange users who have weird ideas about what they are entitled to and what not. And some here are very sensitive b****es it seems, it's ridiculous.

I found the thread I mentioned above -- oh what masterpiece:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=2399&#p15959

[FedoraRefugee]

You should stick around a bit, it might be fun.

I kinda doubt that. ... In my experience Linux Mint attracts some really strange users who have weird ideas about what they are entitled to and what not. And some here are very sensitive b****es it seems, it's ridiculous.

I found the thread I mentioned above -- oh what masterpiece:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=2399&#p15959

I think you showed considerable restraint and should be commended!

Sheesh, it is kind of scary, like looking in a mirror!

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=47711&p=275233&hilit=thin+skin#p275233

[scorp123]

Sheesh, it is kind of scary, like looking in a mirror!

Are you my long lost clone?? How did you get out of the research laboratory? ...

The only thing missing in your thread there is a forum mod or Clem himself dropping in and putting the blame squarely on you ... Hey wait, maybe if I hit that "Report" button?? ..... (just kidding) ...

[FedoraRefugee]

Sheesh, it is kind of scary, like looking in a mirror!

Are you my long lost clone?? How did you get out of the research laboratory? ...

The only thing missing in your thread there is a forum mod or Clem himself dropping in and putting the blame squarely on you ... Hey wait, maybe if I hit that "Report" button?? ..... (just kidding) ...

Somehow I am sure some of those posts were reported.

[Nick_Djinn]

Just seems like you have so many more users over there ...

Oh yes!! Definitely. They have many more admins and forum mods too. I found the Ubuntu forums to be quite comfortable and pleasing place in the past 2.5 years since my departure from here

For stuff that fits in the more specific categories you get way more responses there, but general topics quickly get lost in the shuffle.

Here a thread is more likely to hang around if it gets answered at all.

[Nick_Djinn]

Linux was actually much simpler to use about 5 years ago! For the last couple years we have been going through a bad spot where new ways of doing things are creating many bugs and unwanted side effects. If you have the right hardware you luck out and you do not have to mess with anything anyomre. But...If you have the wrong hardware? It has become a nightmare to try and fix things. It used to be you would simply edit a text file like xorg.conf, but today it is a strange mix of voodoo and blank looks and empty responses from people who have no clue.

As far as spyware/malware, it is not a problem on Vista/7 unless you stray from the default settings. You want to fix it on XP? Create a separate administrator account and only run as a user. It is a PITA to install and remove programs, but how often do you do this? Compared to the fact that it will keep you safe it is a small price to pay! Linux wins the top prize here though, with the separate root account.

Well...Linux may have been "simpler" but simple on the programmers and administrative end does not always = ease of use for new comers.

A bike without training wheels is more "simple" than a bike with training wheels. The training wheels in some instances might even slow you down, can make you come to a screeching halt if they get bent, and its one more thing to worry about.....but its better for learning on. In some instances complexity makes it easier. A motorcycle is more complex than a bicycle but its easier to climb hills with. A bicycle is simplier to maintain and you can always add your own makeshift engine with a moped kit, and if you are serious about it you can get your mountain bike hauling ass faster than a typical moped thats a moped out of the box.....but the one thats a moped out of the box is a lot easier to just get on and ride.


I think the problem with the instability in unbuntu and sometimes mint has to do with how updates are handled and how repositories are handled. I think that Mint has a better approach to updates, only installing things once they are secure rather than just throwing them at people and using them as a testing ground for fixes.....I guess we can thank Ubuntu for being that testing ground, but we get the benefit of getting updated with stable releases and all the basic drivers preconfigured......still, now and then I get conflicts that I am never sure how badly they will affect my computer down the road when more dependencies get updated, so I plan to utilize Mints backup tool and save a copy of my system once I get all the basic programs I need most installed, and I can do a clean iinstall with home and root separated.


Who was it that recently said that Linux/Ubuntu is not fighting for our market share? Whoever said this is mistaken. Ubuntu's public announcement for Maverick Meercat is that they want Ubuntu to be on EVERY PC sold. Those sound like fighting words.

I think that Mint might be the better choice for the windows market in stores though, unless Ubuntu gets wise and starts copying the better features of mint.

If you can make the training wheels snap on and off easily enough that they are not a problem for experienced users, then whats the problem with having them? That seems to be the new linux philosophy, and its working to attract a wider audience which in turn means more software and hardware support for the rest of us.

[Biker]

The zealots who try to make it a Linux vs Windows argument will fail in the long run. And while the devs for Ubuntu may have lofty goals of having a copy of their OS on every machine sold, they need to stop smoking whatever it is they're smoking and perform a reality check.

[FedoraRefugee]

Nick, if you stick around I will be particularly interested in how your views change in a year or so.

[scorp123]

Who was it that recently said that Linux/Ubuntu is not fighting for our market share? Whoever said this is mistaken.

You are mistaken. Linux is not Ubuntu. Whatever Canonical's goal with Ubuntu is ... they do not represent Linux as a whole.

Ubuntu's public announcement for Maverick Meercat is that they want Ubuntu to be on EVERY PC sold. Those sound like fighting words.

Mark Shuttleworth has to make money at some point I guess? Whatever. He is not Torvalds or Stallman, not Bruce Perens or Alan Cox, not Greg Kroah-Hartmann, not Ted T'so, not Andrew Morton, .... Shuttleworth is just one of many people profiting for free from all those people's work. And he can do whatever he wishes with Canonical and Ubuntu (within the boundaries of the GPL of course), but he cannot dictate the others what to do or not to do with Linux, Ubuntu and Canonical cannot even remotely dictate the direction Linux will go or not go. So whatever Canonical does with Ubuntu, whether or not they succeed at putting it on "every PC" has no influence whatsoever.

I worked for Hewlett-Packard (2000 - 2007) and I remember when certain managers tried to exert their corporate powers to make Linux "follow certain roadmaps" ... Guess what response they received?

unless Ubuntu gets wise and starts copying the better features of mint.

Such as?? I am using Ubuntu since 2004. In between I used Mint for a short while. The last Mint version I used was 2.0 ... but already 2.1 deviated so much from Ubuntu that it was utterly useless to me. So what exactly am I missing? Or how come that still the vast majority out there are all talking about Ubuntu and Fedora .... but not about Mint?

which in turn means more software and hardware support for the rest of us.

Aren't we already beyond that point where we needed to worry about hardware support??? I have been using Linux since 1996. Yes, back in those days hardware support was very very very spotty at best, and getting the right hardware meant you had to spend days with yahoo-ing and altavista-ing (Google wasn't around yet!) until you found hardware that would hopefully work. Fast forward to 2010: I have far more troubles getting Windows drivers for my hardware! Linux? Works pretty much instantly, no matter where I boot it. Windows? Not so -- hunting for drivers takes hours and days. So no idea what you're talking about. You must be using really crappy hardware if even now in 2010 it doesn't work out of the box with Linux.

[vrkalak]

Aren't we already beyond that point where we needed to worry about hardware support??? I have been using Linux since 1996. Yes, back in those days hardware support was very very very spotty at best, and getting the right hardware meant you had to spend days with yahoo-ing and altavista-ing (Google wasn't around yet!) until you found hardware that would hopefully work.

Correct, back in 1992, as an young Architectural firm trying to establish myself, on the then, new 'World Wide Web'

When trying to connect my new computer (for business, not a PC) to the internet via telephone land-line. Dial-up was the only way.
The phone company had to run a 'dedicated' line (an unbroken or unsliced phone cable) from my building to the main switchboard (almost 2 miles away) in order to have a good, stable connection.
My computers back then, were very big and cumbersome, and quite expensive. Also, the internet was not near as big as it is today.

Now days, my business PC can do things un-imagined by a PC, back then. And I usually, have no problems with getting Linux work or connect ... stable
.
Windows is the one that doesn't play nice with other systems or OS architectures.
How many system architectures is Windows made for? Maybe, 3 or 4.
How many architectures is Linux made for? All of them. 30 or so.
How many is Apple/Mac made for? 1

I haven't been using Linux since '92 ... I've only been with Linux for the past couple of years.
However, for both work and home ... I use Linux and Open Source exclusively.

Computer life is so much easier now.

[FedoraRefugee]

I love Windows 7. I liked Vista a lot! If you don't believe that you can search my posts. But I will say this:

As an out of the box install Linux (in almost any distro) is MUCH easier to install than Windows! That Windows is easier is a misnomer that drives me nuts! You ALWAYS have to search for drivers with an OEM Windows install. It comes with very few right out of the box. You not only need wifi but also graphics drivers. I use HP laptops. When I install OEM Windows on them I have to go to the HP website and scrounge up every applicable driver I wish to use. Then the Windows update site will provide the rest. Between all the constant reboots (though I usually just do several installs and only boot a couple times). Then add the time spent going to the AVG site and any of the programs you use (I use mostly open source on Windows; OO.o, Gimp, Ifranview...) and you are looking at quite an effort.

With Linux you are usually good just running the installer. Wifi mostly just works these days. Some distros require a third party repo for the video driver and the multimedia codecs, but this is usually just two bash commands away...Then you invoke the package manager and go down the checklist to install your apps...No brainer, there just is no comparison.

The difference is I am versed enough in Linux that I do not freak out on all the beginner hurdles. If a problem arises I usually know what it is and what the solution is. If I have to do a text install or boot up into init3 until I can get my nvidia driver I am comfortable with that. I generally dislike clunky GUI tools unless there is a specific reason to use it, such as wanting to visually see the list of apps in the package manager instead of just using list or search from the command line. I do understand where someone with NO Linux experience might find Windows easier, especially if that is what they knew, but it is a biased opinion. I feel that I can look at both operating systems equally as far as my knowledge and skill level, and I am unbiased as far as "wanting" one to be better than the other. In my not so humble opinion Linux is vastly easier to not only install but to also use with the caveat that you have to assume there is no knowledge bias.

[vrkalak]

What really 'bugs' me about Windows is:

When you buy a new computer, you get the currently released MS Windows Operating System pre-installed with maybe 30 or so, pre-installed programs, in the computer.
After, 60-90 days the 'Trial" period is over for about half of these pre-installed programs ... if I want to continue to use them, I have to pay for them.
And many of these Windows programs are important ... like Internet Security and MS Office.
For other important MS/Windows programs I might want, I have to search in the stores for them, then pay to buy the program disks.

With Linux and Open source ... every program I might ever want/need is in the repositories ... I can install them with a few clicks ... and NO trial period.
Should I find a program/application I want or a newer version of 'my' OS ... I can just download and install it. FREE!!!!

[vincent]

Blame the pre-installed programs on your manufacturer, not Microsoft. These programs, often called "crapware", are installed by your manufacturer because the software vendors paid them to do so; it helps the manufacturer keep costs down (or rather, maximize profits). If you went out and bought an OEM Windows installation, you wouldn't have any pre-installed programs besides what comes with a base install of Windows. Then again, with an OEM install, you have to look far and wide for drivers to get everything working...

The bigger manufacturers are the worst, in my opinion. HP and Dell are notorious for bundling a whole slew of crapware with the computers they sell.

[Nick_Djinn]

The zealots who try to make it a Linux vs Windows argument will fail in the long run. And while the devs for Ubuntu may have lofty goals of having a copy of their OS on every machine sold, they need to stop smoking whatever it is they're smoking and perform a reality check.

The OP tried to make it a Linux vs Windows argument. I only said that an OS for the masses should not have a learning curve too steep for novice users to perform the most common and basic functions in the first 24 hours...as in 4 to 6 hours of use on their down time.

Whether they manage to get on EVERY laptop, it contradicts the claim that they are not trying to compete for our use.

Nick, if you stick around I will be particularly interested in how your views change in a year or so.

I have been using Ubuntu for 6 years, without having to go deep into the technical side of it. I am not a newbie to linux.

I worked for Hewlett-Packard (2000 - 2007) and I remember when certain managers tried to exert their corporate powers to make Linux "follow certain roadmaps" ... Guess what response they received?

Thats kind of irrelevant. HP could make their OWN distro of linux follow certain roadmaps if they created their own distro. You are comparing apples to road apples.

Unlike HP, Ubuntu actually CAN decide where linux goes.

Such as?? I am using Ubuntu since 2004. In between I used Mint for a short while. The last Mint version I used was 2.0 ... but already 2.1 deviated so much from Ubuntu that it was utterly useless to me. So what exactly am I missing? Or how come that still the vast majority out there are all talking about Ubuntu and Fedora .... but not about Mint?

So you are not a fan of Mint but you hang out here anyway? What for? :/

Mint is more popular than Fedora. Maybe you are living in the past, but Mint is the 4th largest OS right now behind Ubuntu. Fedora isnt a contender even, except maybe in the server community. It does retain a small following whose views may be closer to the OPs....such people are quickly becoming a minority however. Non-Geeks make up the majority of the planet and now perhaps the majority of linux users too. Maybe that isnt what some people wanted, but that is what we have.

And how am I supposed to tell you what you are missing? I dont know what your needs are. I do however know what most people want from an OS, and I know that unlike "linux" as defined by the OP, Ubuntu and Mint actually do what to encroach on the windows market. They really do, for profit or for purely altruistic reasons they ARE trying to compete with windows.

Aren't we already beyond that point where we needed to worry about hardware support???

No.

Fast forward to 2010: I have far more troubles getting Windows drivers for my hardware!

That has not been my experience, but I wont call you a liar. I dont know what your needs are.

Finding programs in the repository is WAY easier than finding them with google then downloading them that way. Its nice. None of this is relevant to my argument. There are other ways that Linux has a steeper learning curve to the NOOB, rather than the initiate. I am not talking about which system is easier once you master it, I am talking about who is providing the better experience out of the box.....Maybe Ubuntu and probably Mint have finally beat windows if we could just expand hardware support and gamming....and these distros cater to non-geeks.

[Nick_Djinn]

I love Windows 7. I liked Vista a lot! If you don't believe that you can search my posts. But I will say this:

Windows 7 is a huge improvement, but I still hate microsoft. I think thy are an unethical company. However, I am not arbitrarily pro-business.

As an out of the box install Linux (in almost any distro) is MUCH easier to install than Windows!

That has not been my experience with a clean install and a diver/program disk. Maybe if you just have an OS disk and dont bother to use a hardware driver searching program or use updates.

Windows mint is the first OS that may actually be easier than windows from start to online printing documents and chatting with friends. We need to expand support a bit more, but Mint might actually be easier than windows.....and we got there because Ubuntu DOES want our market share.

The difference is I am versed enough in Linux that I do not freak out on all the beginner hurdles.

You are irrelevant to my point since you are not the type of user I am talking about. I am talking about the majority of computer users who just want their system to work, and you are mistaken if you dont think these OS's are trying to compete with windows for more users. That is why they are getting easier. Ubuntu a bit less so than Mint.