Really rolling?
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LMDE 2 has reached end of support as of 1-1-2019
LMDE 2 has reached end of support as of 1-1-2019
- tdockery97
- Level 14
- Posts: 5058
- Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:54 am
- Location: Mt. Angel, Oregon
Re: Really rolling?
Great explanation on updating. Thanks, and welcome to Mint. Hope you see things here you like.
Mint Cinnamon 20.1
Re: Really rolling?
Try to think of yourself as a newbie. Ubuntu and Mint have 3 ways of downloading programs. Is that not a little bit overboard?Nebeli wrote:They are planing to remove Synaptic from Ubuntu 11.4 too...vincent wrote: Yes, Debian recommends the use of aptitude. On the other hand, Ubuntu is actually planning to remove aptitude from its base system by Ubuntu 11.04, and recommend people to use its Software Centre instead (or Synaptic and apt-get).
http://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic ... -soon.html
nebeli
Though I must say that I so very much like synaptic, so I'll be downloading it when it disappears in Ubuntu.
Re: Really rolling?
That's very hard to do sometimes!simpleblue wrote:Try to think of yourself as a newbie.
I think I will, too. But it'll be a long time before I have to do that -- I only use LTS versions, anyway.simpleblue wrote:Though I must say that I so very much like synaptic, so I'll be downloading it when it disappears in Ubuntu.
Re: Really rolling?
The reason for this is pretty obvious, in my opinion: Ubuntu wants to create their own App Store (a key indicator for this is the "free" price tag on ANY package in 10.04 Beta). Add a payment system, and they can make money from selling commercial applications, which will be advertized in the "Featured" Section (at the cost of OpenSource software, that doesn't earn them a provision because it's free).vincent wrote:...
Ubuntu seems to insist on people using their Software Centre, for some reason (and maybe it's for a good reason...Synaptic is a more powerful tool, but newbies don't find it as intuitive as Ubuntu Software Centre or mintInstall). I'm just glad that Mint comes with both Synaptic and mintInstall by default...to be honest, I use neither (I prefer apt-get), but I like the fact that both tools are available and easily accessible if I ever choose to use them.
Re: Really rolling?
In that case it may be that LMDE might find a more prominent place in the current Mint editions than expected. Perhaps a bit sooner than expected as well but that's just conjecture on my part. I have no problem with Ubuntu apparently going the way of Apple. I believe it was Mark Shuttleworth who made the statement just prior to the 10.04 release that Apple's OSX, not Microsoft Windows was the real competitor to Ubuntu and certain minor GUI changes already made and future changes like removing aptitude and Synaptic seem to show that Ubuntu is indeed attempting to compete with OSX and, in some ways, Apple's business philosophy as well. That's all fine and dandy and more power to them but I won't be joining the Ubuntu ride. Not if that's the way it's headed.axel668 wrote:The reason for this is pretty obvious, in my opinion: Ubuntu wants to create their own App Store (a key indicator for this is the "free" price tag on ANY package in 10.04 Beta). Add a payment system, and they can make money from selling commercial applications, which will be advertized in the "Featured" Section (at the cost of OpenSource software, that doesn't earn them a provision because it's free).vincent wrote:...
Ubuntu seems to insist on people using their Software Centre, for some reason (and maybe it's for a good reason...Synaptic is a more powerful tool, but newbies don't find it as intuitive as Ubuntu Software Centre or mintInstall). I'm just glad that Mint comes with both Synaptic and mintInstall by default...to be honest, I use neither (I prefer apt-get), but I like the fact that both tools are available and easily accessible if I ever choose to use them.
Just my opinion of course.
"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (All apologies to The Architect)
Re: Really rolling?
are aptitude and synaptic going to disappear from Mint too?
Re: Really rolling?
Mint does not work with the same software manager as Ubuntu as far as I know. I wouldn't like to see them remove it. Aptitude however I haven't heard anything about. I don't use it myself but I do know a few people that do.vicshrike wrote:are aptitude and synaptic going to disappear from Mint too?
Re: Really rolling?
So as a conclusion: since LMDE is based on testing, I don't have to do dist-upgrade, but a simple apt-get update && apt-get upgrade once a week will do? or besides the weekly apt-get update && apt-get upgrade I'd still have to run dist-upgrade every once in a while?
I'm sorry to be redundant, but I'm a "rolling release newbie" here.
I'm sorry to be redundant, but I'm a "rolling release newbie" here.
- tdockery97
- Level 14
- Posts: 5058
- Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:54 am
- Location: Mt. Angel, Oregon
Re: Really rolling?
The clearest explanation I have found on the difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade is here:
http://serverfault.com/questions/46748/ ... ade-for-me
This part in particular:
man apt-get
upgrade
upgrade is used to install the newest versions of all packages
currently installed on the system from the sources enumerated
in /etc/apt/sources.list.
dist-upgrade
dist-upgrade, in addition to performing the function of upgrade,
also intelligently handles changing dependencies with new versions
of packages;
http://serverfault.com/questions/46748/ ... ade-for-me
This part in particular:
man apt-get
upgrade
upgrade is used to install the newest versions of all packages
currently installed on the system from the sources enumerated
in /etc/apt/sources.list.
dist-upgrade
dist-upgrade, in addition to performing the function of upgrade,
also intelligently handles changing dependencies with new versions
of packages;
Mint Cinnamon 20.1
Re: Really rolling?
I think the following explains it better:
"dist-upgrade" will often be necessary in a rolling release (e.g. Debian Testing/Unstable, LMDE). In a stable release, i.e. Debian Stable/Ubuntu, libraries should remain pretty static and no major software updates should be released unless it's a security patch (which is why you get so many outdated packages in the repos), and thus "upgrade" is sufficient.
So basically, if you're using LMDE, get used to running "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade" / "aptitude update && aptitude full-upgrade" on a regular basis. In a rolling-release, I would also update much more regularly than in a stable release. Once Debian Testing is unfrozen and a deluge of updates is released from upstream Unstable, I'm sure you'll see what I mean.
Both "upgrade" and "dist-upgrade" will upgrade your packages, but if upgrading the packages in question requires other packages to be installed or removed (which often takes place when a completely new release of a given software package is released, and various libraries thus need to be installed or removed to accomodate it), "upgrade" will not go ahead with the upgrade, while "dist-upgrade" will. Ex. If you want to upgrade package foo, but the maintainers of that package have decided that it was necessary to add package bar as a dependency for the newer version of foo due to various major changes in foo, and if you do not already have package bar installed, "upgrade" will not upgrade anything; "dist-upgrade" will upgrade both foo and bar.The command apt-get upgrade will not add or remove packages. apt-get dist-upgrade will add or remove packages as required.
"dist-upgrade" will often be necessary in a rolling release (e.g. Debian Testing/Unstable, LMDE). In a stable release, i.e. Debian Stable/Ubuntu, libraries should remain pretty static and no major software updates should be released unless it's a security patch (which is why you get so many outdated packages in the repos), and thus "upgrade" is sufficient.
So basically, if you're using LMDE, get used to running "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade" / "aptitude update && aptitude full-upgrade" on a regular basis. In a rolling-release, I would also update much more regularly than in a stable release. Once Debian Testing is unfrozen and a deluge of updates is released from upstream Unstable, I'm sure you'll see what I mean.
Re: Really rolling?
It really won't be too big of a deal when testing opens up again. I switched my LMDE over to Sid and only had an hour wait while it downloaded around 250 packages. Time enough to eat dinner and watch some TV. I'm using Mobile Broadband2Go so I'd imagine if you had a hard line connection you will have faster results than I did. I have "Back in Time" installed to help in case something goes wrong. It'll take snapshots of my system day to day that I can restore to if needed.
Re: Really rolling?
if in DOUBT... leave it at its default level...
Re: Really rolling?
I think, you didn't get the point of this discussion (which I initiated, btw).vicshrike wrote:if in DOUBT... leave it at its default level...
The point is, that LMDE is honoured for being a rolling distribution. And that it's not possible to "let it roll" with the usual Mint means and the default settings (If that's enough for you, that's just fine -- but it's not the point of this thread). With mintUpdate and the defaults you will never ever get a new kernel or some of the core applications (e.g. the xserver).
(And that's my conclusion, as far as I see:)
So, if you want a rolling distribution, you have to use the command line with apt-get/aptitude dist-upgrade on a regular basis.
If you do not want a rolling distribution, it's best to change the repos to squeeze.
Anything inbetween will inevitably lead to unstable or no longer updateable systems or applications (with time).
Thinkpad X220 with Samsung SSD running Xubuntu 13.04
I'm getting old gladly -- I don't like to die young ...
I'm getting old gladly -- I don't like to die young ...
Re: Really rolling?
Seems to me that one could accomplish the same thing by using Synaptic instead of mintUpdate if you mark all upgrades and apply (here's where it would be nice to have that "Mark All Upgrades" button put back in Synaptic! -- is it there in LMDE, by the way?).ej64 wrote:The point is, that LMDE is honoured for being a rolling distribution. And that it's not possible to "let it roll" with the usual Mint means and the default settings (If that's enough for you, that's just fine -- but it's not the point of this thread). With mintUpdate and the defaults you will never ever get a new kernel or some of the core applications (e.g. the xserver).
(And that's my conclusion, as far as I see:)
So, if you want a rolling distribution, you have to use the command line with apt-get/aptitude dist-upgrade on a regular basis.
If you do not want a rolling distribution, it's best to change the repos to squeeze.
Anything inbetween will inevitably lead to unstable or no longer updateable systems or applications (with time).
Re: Really rolling?
If I'm not mistaken that'd just equal apt-get upgrade not dist-upgrade. And by the way: it's not there and I guess the reason is that using it wouldn't be a good ideaMALsPa wrote:
Seems to me that one could accomplish the same thing by using Synaptic instead of mintUpdate if you mark all upgrades and apply (here's where it would be nice to have that "Mark All Upgrades" button put back in Synaptic! -- is it there in LMDE, by the way?).
Re: Really rolling?
I'm not sure wether synaptic is a good choice. There must be some reason why the guys from aptosid/sidux explicitely recommend it this way:
But do as you like -- only time will tell. (And I'm sure I will break my system anyway ... )
Perhaps you can't uninstall libs a running xorg depends on (if this is necessary one day). To me it seems the safest and completest way to upgrade is via terminal in runlevel 3.ej64 wrote:According to the aptosid (rolling sid distribution, formerly "Sidux") manual a dist-upgrade should be performed at least once a month (to not run into dependency troubles). This dist-upgrade must be run within a tty, logged out from any X DE and within runlevel 3 to be safe.
But do as you like -- only time will tell. (And I'm sure I will break my system anyway ... )
Thinkpad X220 with Samsung SSD running Xubuntu 13.04
I'm getting old gladly -- I don't like to die young ...
I'm getting old gladly -- I don't like to die young ...
Re: Really rolling?
I would think enabling level 4 and 5 updates in LMDE's Update Manager would be sufficient enough. Leaving the update manager wide open will port through all updates including all kernel and xorg updates. It works for me.
"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (All apologies to The Architect)
Re: Really rolling?
That's what I thought, too, until I read the descriptions for "upgrade" and "dist-upgrade" in man apt-get. And, check this out:gotjazz wrote:If I'm not mistaken that'd just equal apt-get upgrade not dist-upgrade.MALsPa wrote:
Seems to me that one could accomplish the same thing by using Synaptic instead of mintUpdate if you mark all upgrades and apply (here's where it would be nice to have that "Mark All Upgrades" button put back in Synaptic! -- is it there in LMDE, by the way?).
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticHowto
Dist-upgrade is the default upgrade method used by Synaptic.
Well, the reason it isn't there is to "protect" newbies from possibly borking their systems. If it's such a bad idea to use it, then it's an equally bad idea to use apt-get update or apt-get dist-upgrade, and also a bad idea to enable level 4 and 5 updates in LMDE's Update Manager.gotjazz wrote:And by the way: it's not there and I guess the reason is that using it wouldn't be a good idea
Re: Really rolling?
Of course it's a bad idea. But no worse than running any other "rolling " distro. Besides, what is actually "bad" about it is strictly subjective on any users part.MALsPa wrote:
Well, the reason it isn't there is to "protect" newbies from possibly borking their systems. If it's such a bad idea to use it, then it's an equally bad idea to use apt-get update or apt-get dist-upgrade, and also a bad idea to enable level 4 and 5 updates in LMDE's Update Manager.
"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (All apologies to The Architect)