Should the Update-Manager be installed by default?

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Should the Update Manager be installed by default?

No
13
11%
Yes
45
37%
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then no.
21
17%
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then yes.
39
32%
Not sure, mixed feelings
3
2%
 
Total votes : 121

Should the Update-Manager be installed by default?

Postby clem on Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:21 am

Do you think the Update Manager should be installed by default or not?

Please read this before voting: http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=54

Thank you
Clem
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yes

Postby silver on Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am

I think update manager should be installed by default but that the user should have the choice to turn it on. Also the choice as to which types of updates they want to monitor, ie security updates or general updates.

Life is all about choice.
Lets not take life away from the people just because some don't appreciate it.

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Postby The Darkone on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:49 pm

The best way is a mintTool, which can activated over mintAssistant.
Last edited by The Darkone on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby maty1206 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:50 pm

Clem

I respect you, also I admire you.

But believe me, I prefer an unstable OS inted of an NO-SECURE OS.

This is the main reason Windows users come to Linux, they're looking for freedom, security and acknowledgment.

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Postby scorp123 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:09 pm

No security updates?? ... Nope sorry. That's the wrong way. Especially when it comes to network-facing programs (e.g. web browsers, e-mail programs, openssh-server, samba, nfs, ....) Linux wouldn't be what it is today without the many security updates that are made available to the user more or less instantly when a security flaw is detected. Compare this to Windows .... where Microsoft deliberately choses not to fix security holes even after years because they decide it's not important for the users.

Linux distros have demonstrated time and time again that Microsoft's ways are outright wrong. You cannot play games with security and just cross your fingers and hope that nothing bad will happen.

If there is a security hole: Name it, inform the users, and for God's sake: have them update their systems asap.

We don't need a second Windows. :roll:
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Postby red-e-made on Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:53 pm

I have to confess: I already installed Update Manager and Update Notifier onto Celena through Synaptic.

Weighing the pros and cons, it was either a) take the remote risk that an update will make my system buggy, in which case I can re-install and merely exclude the buggy update, or b) have NO security updates.

In the end, it was a pretty easy choice to make. So yeah, keep the Update Manager installed by default.
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Postby diego1188 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:50 pm

Update manager installed by default; AND a first-run popup to ask user if he wants to disable it or leave it enabled. Probably I'm a lazy man, but I think that progress means to have more time for myself and my jobs instead of wasting it by checking manually for updates.

Anyway, thanks for the greatest linux distro ever!
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Postby linuxviolin on Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:26 pm

For me no update manager. (clem I fear to put misled of button in voting, I wanted to click on No) I never liked the pop-up messages of the update manager and it is useless... Open Synaptic, reload packages and click update (or use a terminal) it's very easy. Just say to newbies to do it regularly.

In windows or in my other distro I don't want an automatic update or a pop-up message when one is available. I update regularly and when I decide it (one time every day in a terminal)

I guess that a good compromise will be to indicate security updates, programs updates... are available (with an icon, no pop-up please) and not to indicate those which can pose problem like the kernel by example.

But the backports and proposed repositories must be actived by default :wink: So security updates.
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Postby Ede on Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:44 pm

What's with you guys? Clems point on why Update Manager should not be installed is a good point, I had alot of problems with software updating, I was one of those who did not know that I had updated the kernel.

Ofcourse, this affects only people who's not experienced with Linux (Included me), but everyone that IS experienced, and KNOW what update manager do, they can just do a sudo apt-get install update-manager. IT'S THAT HARD. O_o
And at the cost that the experienced users install network manager manually, every newbie will NOT update kernel-updates by a mistake, and therefore continue to have a stable system.

Now who needs help the most? You or them? Many people try linux, but is scared away. I can understand that, and this was one of the point. "Omg, my linux updated the kernel without me knowing and now I cant use my computer anymore!? Where's my windows-cd?!"

Most newbies don't need to update any software anyway. Why would you need to update anything anyway? Up to date? Few updates does anything at all that you would notice.
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Postby linuxviolin on Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:33 pm

ede wrote: every newbie will NOT update kernel-updates by a mistake, and therefore continue to have a stable system.


Yes, I agree with that about kernel but not for security updates.

stability on your desktop is more important than getting the latest security updates.


Stability is great but provides security patches in a timely manner during the official lifetime is necessary. :D
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Postby betaluva on Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:39 pm

i say NO, i dont update just because the pop up keeps on telling me that updates are avaiable, in fact i find it quite annoying.
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Postby facade47 on Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:41 am

I think we should have a mint tool for this, but keep it in for now. Perhaps a compromise would be to take update-notifier off of the list of start-up programs, so that the user must be at least semi-conscious of her decision to update the system.
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Postby Husse on Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:51 am

I've been thinking about this
Given the reaction by scorp123, who's opinion I really respect, I think we should use update manager at least until we can make a mint tool for that
I have provided Clem with a truly simple piece of code that turns off the dist-upgrade message and mintAssistant locks the kernel.
These are the two major setbacks of update manager
I don't know if there's a risk that some mint specific tool would be updated with "the wrong" Ubuntu file, that's something Clem has to check.
One way would be to have our own repositories....
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Postby aapiethaaap on Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:50 am

i just discoverd i deinstald my update manager by accident and after 2 months i have no problems so i voted no but a mint tool should be made!
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Postby maty1206 on Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:45 am

I think that MInt users need to give more support to our Distro.

We need more testers, we need huge donations, we need people who really want to improve and not only ask for.

Come om guys!

It's time to give more support to Mint developers, it's time to donate for create our -self repositories and finish of this kind of alternatives because we are depending of Ubuntu repositories.

Now should be change everything

Cheers
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Re: Should the Update-Manager be installed by default?

Postby neighborlee on Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:24 am

clem wrote:Do you think the Update Manager should be installed by default or not?

Please read this before voting: http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=54

Thank you
Clem


I came here becauuse I thought you offered a 'easier' to use linux than ubuntu...gave new windows converts a break on some unnecessarily rough things to accomplish over there but I gotta say Im absolutely stunned you would risk someone's security of their system or a app or some kernel fix so so we can be l33t and say we upgrade when WE WANT not our systems ?

Is ubuntu considering this move, - if not why is linuxmint ??

My security is less important to you than some outdated notion that linux doesn't need reminders of important changes like windows and fedora, ubuntu, mandriva, freespire, suse and most top 10 + distros do ?

I was considering leaving mint because well..for no good reason that I can see ( IM not running anything extra at all ) I get cpu spikes of about 12% every few seconds and that to me is unacceptable so this added to that shows me that linuxmint is but another half-baked attempt at a copy cat scenario of ubuntu apparantly for self glory as this latest move makes clear..its all about ego isn't it instead of helping the user stay protected or informed....I just can't stand l33t minds ; the dripping testosterone and total disregard for my rights is really disturbing ;)

I also flat out can't believe that ANY of you would be happy with this change...you must be kidding.

IT really drives home articles like this doesn't it::

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3304051309.html

When linux is struggling ( time will tell ) to be recognized and therefore get more deserved hardware and software support from various vendors and more crossplatform games being done,- do yourself a favor and come here and see why , and dont you dare shout about how linux is shunned by companies in favor of the M$ monopoly, because it willl have been the linux attitude that has done it in.

cheers
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Postby pjm60it on Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:42 am

I think I would rather let the mint team decide what updates are needed for the distro, after all it is in they're best interest to to keep Mint as stable and secure as possible. So far they haven't let us down.
I know when an update is needed and I know how to get them, so why should I get nagged about it?
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Postby mikpap on Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:21 pm

I think that we could use mintassistant to enable the update manager (which must be installed by default I believe). Whether or not you choose to update should be up to you to decide.
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Postby Ede on Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:34 pm

neighborlee: Too bad you have that point of view on Mint, but I think it's very unfair. Mint is not a half-baked copycat of ubuntu, and does not even aim to be so either. Mint is based on Ubuntu, and improves it's flaws. Mint has flaws too.

Anyway, if Windows converts is an arguement, un-updated linux is far superior to Windows in security anyway. Not a valid arguement. :P Automated updates in linux is not the same as automated updates in windows. I can see the benefits of Update-manager, but I'm not using every single piece of software on my linux-box. Thunderbird has asked for updates now and then, I'we never ever in my life even tried Thunderbird, and when I still used automatic updates, it nagged me every time.
Now, I use synaptic to update those pieces of software I'm actually using.

And when was it your 'right' to have automatic updates? :P

Again, it's as simple as
Code: Select all
sudo apt-get install update-manager

, yet, people are complaining... *sigh*

*edit*
neighborlee: I read the link you posted. The guy writes good, have you read the other things he has written? He glorifies Linux in public use in a other article he wrote. :3
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Postby red-e-made on Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:35 pm

Ede: I think you touched upon a point I made earlier, that Update Manager and Update Notifier can be installed if they're excluded anyway.

Again, it's as simple as

Code: Select all
sudo apt-get install update-manager


, yet, people are complaining... *sigh*


By the same logic, one could say to those who find pop-ups such a pain that they can simply use Synaptic to uninstall UM and UN. Seeing that few people find security updates an annoyance - as opposed to a vital part of their online experience - I'd say the uninstall option is an important one to bring up.

In any event, I'll be sticking with Mint, and crafting it to my tastes, no matter what the final verdict is. I truly love this distro and can feel all the love that went into making it.
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