Should the Update-Manager be installed by default?

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Should the Update Manager be installed by default?

No
13
11%
Yes
45
37%
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then no.
21
17%
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then yes.
39
32%
Not sure, mixed feelings
3
2%
 
Total votes: 121

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newW2
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Post by newW2 »

Ede said:
After some thinking, the best solution would be that it's installed by default, but it wont open and search for updates automagicaly. Mint-assistant can ask if automatic updates should be enabled or not, and at the same time warn about the stability-risks.
Thanks for making my comment for me Ede. :D That was my input as well.
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clem
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Post by clem »

neighborlee:
so we can be l33t and say we upgrade when WE WANT not our systems ?
You're missing the point. It's not about upgrading "when you want", it's about not having your Celena automatically screwed up when Gutsy gets out, it's about not having your proprietary display drivers broken when a new kernel comes up, it's about you not breaking your system by simply clicking an "ok" button.
Is ubuntu considering this move, - if not why is linuxmint ??
That question doesn't make sense. If we were to rely on Ubuntu to implement what's good for Mint, then why have Linux Mint at all? What are you talking about ?? We're different distros and we do have different challenges, goals, visions and ways to solve them.
My security is less important to you than some outdated notion that linux doesn't need reminders of important changes like windows and fedora, ubuntu, mandriva, freespire, suse and most top 10 + distros do ?
"Your" security is none of my concern right now. The security level in Celena is high enough for me to say that the update manager doesn't need to be present.
I was considering leaving mint because well..for no good reason that I can see ( IM not running anything extra at all ) I get cpu spikes of about 12% every few seconds and that to me is unacceptable so this added to that shows me that linuxmint is but another half-baked attempt at a copy cat scenario of ubuntu apparantly for self glory as this latest move makes clear..its all about ego isn't it instead of helping the user stay protected or informed....I just can't stand l33t minds ; the dripping testosterone and total disregard for my rights is really disturbing
This is not worth answering.
I also flat out can't believe that ANY of you would be happy with this change...you must be kidding.
Maybe you need to have a more open mind. It helps in understanding other people's opinions.
IT really drives home articles like this doesn't it::

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3304051309.html
Off-topic. Good article indeed.
When linux is struggling ( time will tell ) to be recognized and therefore get more deserved hardware and software support from various vendors and more crossplatform games being done,- do yourself a favor and come here and see why , and dont you dare shout about how linux is shunned by companies in favor of the M$ monopoly, because it willl have been the linux attitude that has done it in.

cheers
nl
You've said it. "attitude". This decision was made to improve Linux Mint, I believe it does and all you've done is come here and insult me. So much for an attitude.

Clem
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kanishka
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Post by kanishka »

Good and polite reply, Clem. Congratulations. Your (and the forum's) attitude are a major strenght point for LinuxMint, and a breathe of fresh (minty? :wink: ) air.
That's why I always trust your decisions; it's clear that you really do everything to make LinuxMint better.
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Post by clem »

After numerous debates and a lot of thoughts put into it we finally have a strategy. We're going to design a new tool called mintUpdate which will come in Daryna. In the meantime, in Celena, the Ubuntu Update Manager will not be included by default as we believe it does more damage to Mint than it fixes security holes:

http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=71

Clem
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red-e-made
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Post by red-e-made »

clem wrote:After numerous debates and a lot of thoughts put into it we finally have a strategy. We're going to design a new tool called mintUpdate which will come in Daryna. In the meantime, in Celena, the Ubuntu Update Manager will not be included by default as we believe it does more damage to Mint than it fixes security holes:

http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=71

Clem
This sounds like the ideal solution, Clem. I'm really looking forward to Daryna now!

One question, though, regarding this:
Some security updates (kernel, xorg.. etc) will appear but not cause notification and they won’t be selected by default.
So this pretty much means that kernel updates will have to be checked for manually and periodically, or what? Can you explain?
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Post by historyb »

clem wrote:After numerous debates and a lot of thoughts put into it we finally have a strategy. We're going to design a new tool called mintUpdate which will come in Daryna. In the meantime, in Celena, the Ubuntu Update Manager will not be included by default as we believe it does more damage to Mint than it fixes security holes:

http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=71

Clem
Than why waste our time with a poll? It's your distro and you can do what you like, but barring that you put a poll up and yes is winning, next is your own update tool. If you planned it than why a poll if your not going to listen to the majority of your users.
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Post by red-e-made »

historyb wrote: Than why waste our time with a poll? It's your distro and you can do what you like, but barring that you put a poll up and yes is winning, next is your own update tool. If you planned it than why a poll if your not going to listen to the majority of your users.
Looks like "Yes" and "There should be a mintTool for this, but until then, yes" are pretty close, first of all. Second, would you rather we keep using another distro's package, or create our own? It's a given. I don't understand what you're whining about.
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Post by red-e-made »

In addition, the combined results for both "we should have a mintTool for this" responses are greater than just "yes", so the results of the poll are being abided anyway. Maybe doing a little math before posting would be a good idea next time.
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historyb
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Post by historyb »

red-e-made wrote:
historyb wrote: Than why waste our time with a poll? It's your distro and you can do what you like, but barring that you put a poll up and yes is winning, next is your own update tool. If you planned it than why a poll if your not going to listen to the majority of your users.
Looks like "Yes" and "There should be a mintTool for this, but until then, yes" are pretty close, first of all. Second, would you rather we keep using another distro's package, or create our own? It's a given. I don't understand what you're whining about.
Who the heck are you to talk down to someone? You have no idea what your saying so kindly keep your nose out of it, I wasn't whining anyone with half a brain could see that. I was making an observation that if he was going to do that anyway then why bother with a poll.

If LM is not Ubuntu than of course Clem should get away from it and never use anything there, like PCLOS has it own thing so should LM which is a good distro too.
Last edited by historyb on Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by linuxviolin »

historyb wrote:Who the heck are you to talk down to someone? You have no idea what your saying so kindly keep your nose out of it, I wasn't whining anyone with half a brain could see that. I was making an observation that if he was going to do that anyway then why bother with a poll.
Why as much of aggressiveness here? :roll: Keep cool guy........
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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clem
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Post by clem »

The poll is pretty important, whether I decide to go with the majority vote or note, it tells me what people think and this is valuable information. As the results stand so far I can see there is a demand for that tool but also that I will have to convince half of the users that this is actually better than the Ubuntu Update Manager. Having a majority of people think something doesn't mean it's actually the best choice, it means that if we go against it we need to do it with diplomacy and a lot of explanations.

The decision to remove the update manager in Celena was taken long before code-freeze. I did notice a lot of worries and protestations though and this is why I made this poll, to know exactly how worried the community is with this decision.

I am confident mintUpdate will be a success and become popular among all of you. I will post regularly about it and have it released in Romeo before Daryna gets out. We needed a tool like this if we were to remove the Update Manager, and as this poll illustrates this need is quite urgent.

red-e-made: There will be 5 levels of security updates, our own (level 1), tested and safe updates (level 2), not tested (level 3), potentially unsafe (level 4), not recommended (level 5). All updates will appear in mintUpdate and the user will be able to select all of them, but depending on their level they will show in different colors (green for level 1... all the way to red for level 5), be selected by default (level 1 and 2) or not (other levels), trigger a warning when selected (level 4 and 5), and only some levels will actually give you a notification... that means you won't get one for a kernel upgrade, but if there's a kernel upgrade and a level 1 upgrade, you'll get a notification.. and when you open mintUpdate you'll see a green selected update and an orange or red not-selected-by-default kernel upgrade.

It's actually trivial and it will make the whole process extremely easy, understandable and safe for the user. It's not even hard to program. Think of it as an Update Manager which assigns different levels depending on the packages and gives you more information about the risks involved.

It will get its upgrade information from the repositories and the meta-data about the packages directly from us. All packages we don't have data for will still appear and be available to the user (so you will actually get updates as soon as they hit the Ubuntu repos, without delays), they will default to level 3.

It's hard to describe like this. I'll post more about it in the blog and publish screenshots of the GUI as soon as I have something working.

There's been a lot of tension about this, maybe I haven't sufficiently explained why the update manager HAD to be removed. I'm sorry if people got frustrated by this. I know exactly what I'm doing and I am confident this will benefit Linux Mint in the long run.

Thanks,
Clem.
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kanishka
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Post by kanishka »

Here's an article about the updaters and their negative sides:
http://www.linux.com/feature/119162
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historyb
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Post by historyb »

linuxviolin wrote:
historyb wrote:Who the heck are you to talk down to someone? You have no idea what your saying so kindly keep your nose out of it, I wasn't whining anyone with half a brain could see that. I was making an observation that if he was going to do that anyway then why bother with a poll.
Why as much of aggressiveness here? :roll: Keep cool guy........
Sorry when someone talks to me like he did I tend to not like it. I've seen others like that and it does burn me up.
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Post by newW2 »

Clem: once again you came up with a good solution to competing points of view (at least IMHO). Sure is great that we are all able to interact and exchange ideas on changes like this with you on the forum.

With regard to your comment about not having sufficiently explained the update manager ... the decision process we all just participated in, is much better than the one that resulted in the silent windows updates that have been in the news of late. :shock:

I look forward to watching mintUpdate evolve to completion in Daryna. Of course you know we will all be standing by with our comments and opinions. :lol:
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Post by red-e-made »

historyb wrote:Sorry when someone talks to me like he did I tend to not like it. I've seen others like that and it does burn me up.
So you can dish out hasty, foundless complaints but can't stand being corrected? As I pointed it, the majority of votes tallied so far are in favor of a mintUpdate-type tool. Had you bothered to count these votes more carefully before posting you would have seen that, and not complained that the poll results were being ignored.

If you take issue with my use of the word "whining", then maybe you'd consider thinking twice before firing off a baseless compaint. If that's "talking down to you", well, I don't know. Learn to take criticism better I guess.
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Post by red-e-made »

clem wrote:red-e-made: There will be 5 levels of security updates, our own (level 1), tested and safe updates (level 2), not tested (level 3), potentially unsafe (level 4), not recommended (level 5). All updates will appear in mintUpdate and the user will be able to select all of them, but depending on their level they will show in different colors (green for level 1... all the way to red for level 5), be selected by default (level 1 and 2) or not (other levels), trigger a warning when selected (level 4 and 5), and only some levels will actually give you a notification... that means you won't get one for a kernel upgrade, but if there's a kernel upgrade and a level 1 upgrade, you'll get a notification.. and when you open mintUpdate you'll see a green selected update and an orange or red not-selected-by-default kernel upgrade.

It's actually trivial and it will make the whole process extremely easy, understandable and safe for the user. It's not even hard to program. Think of it as an Update Manager which assigns different levels depending on the packages and gives you more information about the risks involved.

It will get its upgrade information from the repositories and the meta-data about the packages directly from us. All packages we don't have data for will still appear and be available to the user (so you will actually get updates as soon as they hit the Ubuntu repos, without delays), they will default to level 3.

It's hard to describe like this. I'll post more about it in the blog and publish screenshots of the GUI as soon as I have something working.
OK that makes more sense. The more we can move away from Ubuntu, and maintain the spirit of security, user freedom, and stability, the better off we'll all be. Thanks again for all your efforts.
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Post by historyb »

red-e-made wrote:
historyb wrote:Sorry when someone talks to me like he did I tend to not like it. I've seen others like that and it does burn me up.
So you can dish out hasty, foundless complaints but can't stand being corrected? As I pointed it, the majority of votes tallied so far are in favor of a mintUpdate-type tool. Had you bothered to count these votes more carefully before posting you would have seen that, and not complained that the poll results were being ignored.
You need to go back to school you can't count. So in the interest that you seem to be deficient in the math department, particularly the counting area here are the votes so far:
No 10% [ 8 ]
Yes 38% [ 28 ]
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then no. 16% [ 12 ]
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then yes. 32% [ 24 ]
Not sure, mixed feelings 1% [ 1 ]
I am sure you can see that a straight yes has 28 votes and a yes, with mint tool has 24.
red-e-made wrote:If you take issue with my use of the word "whining", then maybe you'd consider thinking twice before firing off a baseless compaint. If that's "talking down to you", well, I don't know. Learn to take criticism better I guess.
It's people like yourself that runs newbies away from Linux, you should learn some posting manners. When a Person comes in with an opinion it is not your place to put that opinion down.
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Security

Post by David Chiang »

clem wrote:The decision to remove the update manager in Celena was taken long before code-freeze. I did notice a lot of worries and protestations though and this is why I made this poll, to know exactly how worried the community is with this decision.

I am confident mintUpdate will be a success and become popular among all of you. I will post regularly about it and have it released in Romeo before Daryna gets out. We needed a tool like this if we were to remove the Update Manager, and as this poll illustrates this need is quite urgent.
Hallo Clem,
first of all I have to say thank you for this fantastic distribution, and at second, it's a good sign when people start fighting in the forum. It shows how important your work has become now for the community, and also the high level of development. Your work is now irresistible for them at this stage and the discussion becomes very exciting. This is much better than being ignored, isn't it!? :D

Regards David
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Post by kosmonaut »

Hi!

Now, please help me out here. I think that I am missing something important in all this problem.
What I understood is that: It is not a good idea to have an update-manager (that comes from ubuntu) that wants to update LinuxMint up to a new distro level of ubuntu. (Like cassandra>gutsy). I do understand that.
But here come the point: Will a missing update-manager not increase "security holes" in the OS? I do not think that this is the intension of Clem, right? I personally prefer a secure OS to a stable OS that has known "security-holes" (so that malware software like Bundestrojaner, Magic Lantern, CIPAV or what ever could easy intrude into my computer (yeah I am paranoid 8) ))

In my years using Linux (different distros) I never ever had a problem *after* installing security updates. And a updated Amarok was always a bliss ;-)
Now, tell me what problem did you have after installing packages proposed by the update-manager. Please give me a hint...what am I missing in all this issue :shock:
Husse

Post by Husse »

@ kosmonaut
This is a balance between stability and security.
In this forum you will find lots of people with problems after an update. New kernel breaks X and people don't see anything but a blank screen and don't know what's next (including me in my early days on the forum)
New kernel "breaks" intel chipsets so much so that I've posted a sticky about it
http://www.linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3027
or ask the forum member Lolo Uila
There are also examples of sound problems after a kernel update...
So in my experience there is a lot, but mostly caused by updated to the kernel (I have seen other examples but I can't find them)
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