Debian Squeeze and DSFG

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Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby rec9140 on Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:46 pm

Heres some news that will definitely effect DebMint...

http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20101215

Debian 6.0 Squeeze to be released with completely ["]free["] Linux Kernel

Comments from the DebMint team and their stance? ? ?
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Re: Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby hellnest on Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:17 pm

I guess the kernel issue is not a big deal, we still can compile our kernel or choose another "pre-build" kernel like liquorix. Being devirate doesn't mean everything depends on the upstream. IMHO :) hahahahha
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Re: Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby rivenathos on Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:47 pm

That official announcement was just made and is being re-dented all over identi.ca since yesterday. Yes, it is good news. Though, all those firmware blobs had pretty much already been moved into the firmware-linux (firmware-linux-free and firmware-linux-nonfree) packages a while back. If anyone needs the firmware to initially install Debian, there will be some alternate netinstall images available with those included. Most everyone will still be accommodated. This really should not have any effect on the LMDE images since Clem is certainly aware of those issues.
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Re: Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby anzan on Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:19 pm

rivenathos has posted just what I was going to say. This is all good and not a problem.
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Re: Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby rec9140 on Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:24 am

rivenathos wrote:That official announcement was just made and is being re-dented all over identi.ca since yesterday. Yes, it is good news. Though, all those firmware blobs had pretty much already been moved into the firmware-linux (firmware-linux-free and firmware-linux-nonfree) packages a while back. If anyone needs the firmware to initially install Debian, there will be some alternate netinstall images available with those included. Most everyone will still be accommodated. This really should not have any effect on the LMDE images since Clem is certainly aware of those issues.


I very strongly disagree. This is NOT good news. This is a very bad move.

Plain and simple only a very minor niche of developers care about these blobs.... This HURTS END USERS, period.

free = NO COST, nothing more. "free" does nothing but hold back Linux with a bunch of zealotry the users and Linux can do with out. It ultimately hurts Linux, ALL LINUX DISTRO's in a HUGE WAY.

When your distro live cd/dvd is put in and tested and this or that doesn't work. Your DONE. End of story. And 9/10 its going to come down to some firmware driver that 100% should be in the distro, period. Especially in the wireless networking arena, this is still a huge program.

*I* do NOT care one bit if the driver to support my device is open source or closed source, all I care is that my device(s) are SUPPORTED in Linux, period. This is ALL that other users, especially when your trying to convert new users, and keep them using Linux. The hardware must work out of the box, no tweaking, no enabling, no futzing, and especially no CLI. Quit badgering firms to "open source", badger them to provide DRIVERS, PERIOD! Yes it would be easier to fix bad drivers if open source, but face the facts, at this point in time the pinheads that run some companies just don't get Linux. Thankfully nVidia does. I support nVidia by purchasing their cards, and I tell them with regularity that I am a Linux user and their drivers are a KEY REASON why I chose nVidia.

I think Debian is great, I only consider Debian based distros, but the DFSG and me do NOT AGREE and this is a BAD MOVE. It causes me no end of grief in regards to things like DarkIce LAME etc... thankfully Canonicial fixes their broken DarkIce packages... yeah I would like to take Frauhoffer/Thompson and beat them silly, but MP3 support is the defacto audio mode... I provide feeds in ogg and NO ONE BUT ME USES THEM! None of the 'Droid players even will support Ogg...

Any DebMint should CORRECT AND INCLUDE ALL FIRMWARE BLOBS. This is what Mint users expect, a 100% FULL EXPERIENCE that WORKS. This will no doubt create a HUGE AMOUNT of work for the DebMint devs.

99% of the users do not care one bit how, who or what ever their stuff works, just that it works. The zealotry of this gets Linux no where, its like piling another fat guy on (ala the Tmetro commercial).

I strongly suggest that the DebMint team add back in ALL FIRMWARE BLOB's that the upstream Debian source has removed to the distro, not a repo, not an alternate install, in the main CD/DVD. I am watching the DebMint project closely, but KDE support and support of the widest devices are key.
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Re: Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby dbkblk on Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:38 pm

rec > I see your point, but i do not agree 100%. They want to be totally free, OK. You and I don't care so much about that. However, if you want to use your hardware, you can just do "aptitude install linux-firmware" and it's OK.

Sure that it won't be out-of-the-box, but this is nearly the same ! Don't you think ?

If LMDE want to be the same as before this move, they just have to pre-install this meta-package.
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Re: Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby rivenathos on Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:05 pm

@rec9140,
Unless you are using pure Debian, this is really a non-issue, so worry not. If you are using LMDE, your experience will continue onward as it has been. For the pure Debian users, this move is being heralded as a vast improvement and is being positively received. Pure Debian users have a slightly different computing philosophy than the derivatives, which is not a bad thing at all. That is why there are derivatives (Ubuntu) and derivatives of derivatives (Linux Mint).
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Re: Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby rec9140 on Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:43 pm

dbkblk wrote:rec > I see your point, but i do not agree 100%. They want to be totally free, OK. You and I don't care so much about that. However, if you want to use your hardware, you can just do "aptitude install linux-firmware" and it's OK.

Sure that it won't be out-of-the-box, but this is nearly the same ! Don't you think ?


NO!

You some what glossed over the fact that User W is handed a CD/DVD to put in and try, or downloads the ISO creates CD/DVD... reboots .

Network card doesn't work
Wireless doesn't work
touchpad acts weird

Pick one...

Test over... Disk is flung into the garbage.... Linux is now tar'd and feather'd with another round of "doesn't work!"

If they even bother to persist and try to come here they get an answer which involves more than a click or two of things.. DONE!

Intentionally adding these failures doesn't help. The masses do not care about the zealotry that goes with this, and quite frankly neither do I! Be thankful the companies provided the drivers at all!

I've bent over backwards to kill off proprietary software like a certain suite from a Washington state based company! I've moved to LibreOffice because another tyrant wants to turn another suite into the ProfitSuite..

I've thrown out and banned crackberries and idiotphones... in favor of Android based devices, even with the litigation... Java development is probably going to be the next causality, based on ASF leaving and the actions of the new tyrant. MySQL is on the UBER QUADRUPLE SECRET PROBATION status.

I am vehemently trying to get Linux on desktops and laptops agency wide.. Not just in the IT department, and the servers. 100% Linux. I want nothing to do with another OS, period. I won't even hire people who have developed on that platform in any way or form.

This doesn't help.... and the solution your offering may work, but it only works for the niche level. The majority of users who will try, and have it fail, it is not a solution. I face this battle daily on various fronts in developing software used mostly internally. I spend HOURS ON HOURS wasting time to explain even the most basic of GUI stuff to people over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. I have to spell out time and again the most basic of computer steps. Open your SD card. DEAD SILENCE....Drag your photos to the upload control on the web page... CRICKETS..... "How do I open the SD card... its sealed." I jest not!

Myself and staff spends hours on hours recreating step by step with graphics instructions, with BIG HUGE CIRCLES AND ARROWS to show users how to do something as simple as "open you SD card." Every one here knows what to, any one with basic computer skills does, but those users who don't retain these skills use after use after use, do not. Its a sad fact I face, daily. I call it the big mac effect, as if the registers at a certain chain didn't have pictures of the food, no one would get any food. Which is why I won't go with people I know want to order "off the menu." Yeah sure they CAN and WILL if you ask to make it with no onions or pickles or what not.. BUT 30 years later after they figure out how to put in the register, then the grill will make it wrong, then..... NO THANKS..

dbkblk wrote:If [DebMint] want to be the same as before this move, they just have to pre-install this meta-package.


And thats what I am very strongly suggesting that they publicly post what they plan to do with this mess... Correct it or leave it as it is from the upstream.

I've heard all the debates/positions/arguments over how this kind of move helps Linux... NO it doesn't! It just solidifies the "geek/nerd" mentality and regular users run away, never to come back...
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Re: Debian Squeeze and DSFG

Postby anzan on Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:25 am

rec9140, I would never give a new user a Debian Live CD. Debian is not for first time users. Perhaps not even for the average committed Linux user.

Unless your point is that no Linux distro should ever have a free kernel just in case a new user tries out a Live CD of it and is disappointed, I see no problem with the Debian community, of which I am a part, achieving one of its goals. If that is your point then I disagree.

I think it's likely that when CDs of Squeeze appear as free give-aways in a few Linux magazines, those versions will include the blobs.
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