Linux is Not Windows

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby vincent on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:19 am

Nick_Djinn wrote:I may have over stepped in a few of my assumptions, but you made it sound like Linux in general is just a side project that some computer geeks cook up in their spare time for fun, and if you dont like it then tough !!!! and dont expect the developers to care about you if you have problems because it was free and done as a hobby......those are not your exact words, but its my impression of the general picture you were painting. You didnt necessarily say all of those things specifically, but thats the feeling I got from your general implications.


It's actually somewhat funny seeing my words twisted like that. Oh well, what can I say?

I'll play ball with you, then. Here's what I read from your posts: You hate big multinational corporations, so you want to use the only viable alternative operating system (that fits this ideology of yours) for your PC, which happens to be Linux (there's also *BSD, Haiku, Syllable, etc., but these would be too "geeky" for you). You then decide that since you want Linux but can't put up with the "geekiness" of Linux, that you want to turn Linux into a dumbed-down system...something easy to use like Windows, except without a big company backing it (if Linux was owned by some big company, you would shun it as well due to "corporate distrust", conveniently turning a blind eye to the fact that in recent years, 75% of the code contributed to Linux is from those giant corporations you despise). And then you argue that open-source must fit this vision of yours, and since you're paying money for it (Mint), you must be right and Mint's developers have an obligation to listen to what you say.

Well, unfortunately for you, "voting with your wallet" works only for proprietary software. When you're dealing with a company developing closed-source software, you get to call the shots once you cough up enough money...after all, profit is the only reason proprietary software companies are in business. That doesn't work the same way for open-source software. You want to change something? "Awesome, we'd love to have another contributor to our project! Here's the source code, come talk to us on IRC/mailing lists when you've got a working patch, and we'll merge it with the latest dev branch if it looks like it won't cause any major borkage."

If you still don't get it, this is NOT about money. I'm not even going to bother to refute your last reply...donating money to Mint has no pertinence to the issue at hand here, aside from the belief that you think that money will get you what you want, like in the world of proprietary software. If the sole desire of open-source developers in general was to earn money like their counterparts in proprietary software companies, the open-source movement would long be dead by now. The open source movement was built upon the collaboration of thousands of developers wishing to work together to develop software that fit their collaborative needs, and to do so in a manner which would leave their code open and accessible to all. The open source movement is not about catering to a group of anti-corporate users with some spare change in their hands.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby degarb on Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:17 pm

carlos wrote:This is an excellent article geared towards those coming from windoze. Please read this first it will help set your expectations of linux and hopefully help you stick it out through the times when things are just not working out.

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

It really helped me out when I first started using linux. I hope that you can find it helpful. :)


Pretty weak argument to convert to linux, that link. Pretty much no reason other than lego level of puerile fun, and bragging rights. Pretty stupid. Time is money for most people (except me, naturally, as I compose this).

The old arguments that windows locks up, blue screens, is slow, un-secure are just not true anymore (http://www.trustware.com). I am not sure it would help on a resume anymore.

There are good arguments for Linux and a strong Linux community. Arguments that an OS should never be proprietary for the sake of civilizational advancement and our children's future is something I would buy. Avoiding the upgrade cycle hell is another reson for linux(MS makes clunkier software with no real new benefits every year to encourage premature machine replacement; in return the hardware manufactures put the newest MS on new machines to encourage new sales that we really didn't need anyway.)
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby grey1960envoy on Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:57 pm

Another argument for Linux would be putting the latest and greatest version of an OS on a rather old computer. MOST 10 year old computers would have a tough time handling win 7 but probably be able to run Mint 9,10 or LMDE with no problems aside from a bit of tweaking. 8)
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby randomizer on Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:26 am

Hold the phone, since when is Linux not Windows? This is news to me!
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby grey1960envoy on Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:24 pm

randomizer wrote:Hold the phone, since when is Linux not Windows? This is news to me!


And I thought windows were what are set into walls so you can look at the gates :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby exploder on Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:28 am

I can sure say that Linux is not Windows. I have been working on an Acer 5520 laptop that was trashed by a virus. I have spent days on this thing re-loading Vista, drivers, applications, updates, etc. I still have one "unknown device" even though all the Acer supplied drivers are installed and I see this is a common problem with no easy solution... I had to turn off all of the Windows protection crap that does not protect anything but is extremely annoying. Vista had the power management set up wrong by default so the laptop would not even shut down until I found the setting and set it right! What a hassle!

Linux does not play well with this particular laptop, it was running way too hot and I did not want to risk damaging a system that belongs to someone else. This whole experience serves to remind me why I quit running Windows and why I seldom fix peoples Windows machines. I can have my Linux machine set up and fully updated in less than an hour. :)
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Elisa on Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:47 am

exploder wrote:...I had to turn off all of the Windows protection crap that does not protect anything but is extremely annoying...
What u exactly mean?? Because when I was on Windows I had to used Symantec Internet Security as for antivirus and firewall and with that firewall I had control over every ask of any app to connect in or out the net.

And I am badly missing this kind of a firewall tool in Linux! :evil:

Simply, what I'd like to get know how to manage and have under my control in the same time is a control of a concrete app or process to wanna connect the net so I'd allow it or wouldn't allow.

Typical example of the usage is if I install or just run a portable app by wine so I'd like such app just run on my pc, not "walking" to net etc. :twisted: Yep, I could unplug network cable but I do want also work and be connected just some stuff I'd like to have under MY control and ME to judge what will connect or not to the net :?

If someone is able to help or guide me how to set this in Linux, pls, send em PM or write here, maybe someone else is interested in this also.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby exploder on Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:56 am

exploder wrote:...I had to turn off all of the Windows protection crap that does not protect anything but is extremely annoying...

What u exactly mean?? Because when I was on Windows I had to used Symantec Internet Security as for antivirus and firewall and with that firewall I had control over every ask of any app to connect in or out the net.


Windows was constantly asking for my permission to do every little thing.

As far as anti-virus protection, I install Avira personal because it has been around for years and has never failed me.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby randomizer on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:35 am

Ah yes, UAC on Vista is a joy. Want to move a file? First it will ask you to confirm that you want to move the file, then it will ask you for permission to move the file :lol: That said, it is potentially a better setup than Windows 7 has. Windows 7 whitelists certain MS processes so that they can make changes to your system without your knowledge. Ones that do require your explicit permission still don't say what they are doing, only that they are making changes. Office 2010, for example, will forcibly alter your services configuration if you happen to disable its phone home service and try to start up an Office component without allowing MS to check if you're being illegal by running their software on your computer without first letting them profile it. Well, it did until recently. Office Genuine Advantage magically vanished only a month ago or so.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby grey1960envoy on Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:36 am

randomizer wrote:Ah yes, UAC on Vista is a joy. Want to move a file? First it will ask you to confirm that you want to move the file, then it will ask you for permission to move the file :lol: That said, it is potentially a better setup than Windows 7 has. Windows 7 whitelists certain MS processes so that they can make changes to your system without your knowledge. Ones that do require your explicit permission still don't say what they are doing, only that they are making changes. Office 2010, for example, will forcibly alter your services configuration if you happen to disable its phone home service and try to start up an Office component without allowing MS to check if you're being illegal by running their software on your computer without first letting them profile it. Well, it did until recently. Office Genuine Advantage magically vanished only a month ago or so.

Why does this not surprise me in any way? M$ does NOT want ANY secrets let loose BUT they do want all your information just in case you may be doing something they deem to be against the EULA :? :? :? The big question here is what IS allowed :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:10 am

degarb wrote:
carlos wrote:There are good arguments for Linux and a strong Linux community. Arguments that an OS should never be proprietary for the sake of civilizational advancement and our children's future is something I would buy. Avoiding the upgrade cycle hell is another reson for linux(MS makes clunkier software with no real new benefits every year to encourage premature machine replacement; in return the hardware manufactures put the newest MS on new machines to encourage new sales that we really didn't need anyway.)


I agree entirely.

And I am not against geekiness as long as its not 'looking down your nose at the windoze noobs' kind of elitism. Having knowledge is a good thing. Thinking it makes you better than others or makes up for size and good looks is something else entirely. Why not HELP the Windoze noobs who are afraid of the command line, and not just to belittle them?

Ubuntu and Mint are actually better about this than some, but its still common.


And yes, thinking of the future, and the logical conclusion of a world based on proprietary software vs open source software is the number 1 reason I choose to promote Linux. Ive probably promoted linux to a lot more people than some of the geeks have, even though Im still a novice compared to some of you.

Do I want to "dumb down" Linux? Well, it depends on what you mean. I do think the OS should have options that hold your hand in the beginning, and there should be more advanced options that allow as much complexity as you are capable of handling. I dont want to remove the advanced options, but if you really want open source to dominate then it should be accessible to the 60th percentile.....I dont expect you to believe me, but Im in the very superior intelligence range, but I might be slightly dyslexic when it comes to algebra but not arithmetic. My vocabulary is high but my spelling is poor.....That makes it kind of difficult to do everything with the command line, because no matter how many command I learn I will probably spell something wrong.....Graphical interfaces or a command line key-ring really help people like me, and the perfect spellers of the world shouldnt be offended if a few distros cater to us.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby donec on Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Nick_Djinn wrote:
degarb wrote:
carlos wrote:There are good arguments for Linux and a strong Linux community. Arguments that an OS should never be proprietary for the sake of civilizational advancement and our children's future is something I would buy. Avoiding the upgrade cycle hell is another reson for linux(MS makes clunkier software with no real new benefits every year to encourage premature machine replacement; in return the hardware manufactures put the newest MS on new machines to encourage new sales that we really didn't need anyway.)


I agree entirely.

And I am not against geekiness as long as its not 'looking down your nose at the windoze noobs' kind of elitism. Having knowledge is a good thing. Thinking it makes you better than others or makes up for size and good looks is something else entirely. Why not HELP the Windoze noobs who are afraid of the command line, and not just to belittle them?

Ubuntu and Mint are actually better about this than some, but its still common.


And yes, thinking of the future, and the logical conclusion of a world based on proprietary software vs open source software is the number 1 reason I choose to promote Linux. Ive probably promoted linux to a lot more people than some of the geeks have, even though Im still a novice compared to some of you.

Do I want to "dumb down" Linux? Well, it depends on what you mean. I do think the OS should have options that hold your hand in the beginning, and there should be more advanced options that allow as much complexity as you are capable of handling. I dont want to remove the advanced options, but if you really want open source to dominate then it should be accessible to the 60th percentile.....I dont expect you to believe me, but Im in the very superior intelligence range, but I might be slightly dyslexic when it comes to algebra but not arithmetic. My vocabulary is high but my spelling is poor.....That makes it kind of difficult to do everything with the command line, because no matter how many command I learn I will probably spell something wrong.....Graphical interfaces or a command line key-ring really help people like me, and the perfect spellers of the world shouldnt be offended if a few distros cater to us.
Extremely well said Nick_Djinn.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby AlbertP on Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:39 pm

Think yourself lucky it's 2011 now. Over the years the need of terminal commands has decreased much. Now that we're 2011 I did not need any terminal command to get my hardware working (except my cellphone via USB).
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:55 pm

I had an idea of a 'command line' keyring, and a new terminal interface. You program your commands by copying and pasting them, then you label then with names and a number code, and you can string them together by typing in the code or the name, and it would also allow for strings of commands in sequence to be activated after the last one finishes in order, OR would allow you to create applications with a purely graphical interface by copying or writing lines of CLI code and dragging and dropping the icon next to the code next to buttons that you can also drag and drop and label.......You could easily create your own applications with graphical interface using graphical interface, only knowing the commands without having to know a computer language.....Or you could just use it to execute lines of code with drag and drop or by clicking on the button, then it automatically pastes over into the new terminal interface.

I offer this idea to Mint devs, since I will probably never do it. I believe this would be a revolutionary step forward in making the CLI more approachable to the common user. It would also allow people to create applications with exceptional ease, for themselves, but if a tool existed to export these apps created with the CLI that would be awesome......probably should check them before posting them officially, but its no more dangerous than copying and pasting lines of code, and a lot easier.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Asterisk on Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:34 pm

degarb wrote:Pretty weak argument to convert to linux, that link.


Because not everybody wants to make a toy car with Lego.

I don't really think that link was geared towards conversion, but rather, new converts. It explains the basics about what to expect, and what not to expect. I wish I would have seen that before my first Linux install.

Nick_Djinn wrote:I offer this idea to Mint devs, since I will probably never do it.


That's an amazing idea, but, and please ignore if this is a stupid question, did you submit it in the suggestion forum?
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:06 am

I did over on the Ubuntu forums. Maybe I should go ahead and cut and paste.

Thank you for the compliment. I hope somebody steals my idea and remembers that this noob thought of it.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Asterisk on Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:24 pm

I'm excited to see what may come of that. :D
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:07 am

Maybe you could bump this idea and tell Mint devs how much you think it would improve the experience.

Then again, this could be a project for a team thats just dedicated to making this project happen, distro agnostic, if it had the funding from some distros and donations. The problem with being a jack of all trades is that I dont always have the skills to make my best ideas happen.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=66415
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby dawgdoc on Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:11 pm

Today I came across this article: 20 New User Misconceptions about Linux by Matt Hurley on the Datamation page.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Postby Nick_Djinn on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:52 am

Its hard to disagree with anything in those 20. While the OP has good information, its a little charged/loaded with the bias of a social clique within Linux.....trends prevalent among old school hackers from the 80s and early 90s when Linux was a lot more fringe than it was today. They didnt have anything like Ubuntu or Linux Mint or Mandriva or PCLinux or OpenSuse.....They had RedHat and Slackware and it wasnt easy or intuitive to use coming from Windows.....And only an ignorant person will assume that 'intuitive for somebody coming from apples/windows' means copying them....I mean, thats one way to make an easy transition and some have done that, but you should at least be aware of the cultural norms of your day and have an interface that makes sense to the majority....In my opinion, Linux Mint is even more convenient and user friendly than Windows 7. Windows 7 is easier to use than Arch or Slackware.

Linux is really agnostic to my politics or the bias of the hacker elite....the only thing that Linux is absolutely about for everyone are the things that are written in stone in the GNU/GPL or whatever license the software is written under.
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