Your system is up to date. (Solved)

[clem]

That's alright because this information is only valuable to admins who want to make sure they're "fully" up to date or devs like me who want to make sure there's no bug in mintUpdate To the user, it's irrelevant to see this warning or not. It basically tells you "heh there's an update... but don't mind that, it's not something you want anyway"

[mads]

That's alright because this information is only valuable to admins who want to make sure they're "fully" up to date or devs like me who want to make sure there's no bug in mintUpdate To the user, it's irrelevant to see this warning or not. It basically tells you "heh there's an update... but don't mind that, it's not something you want anyway"

OK, thanks.

[mads]

A minor bug in mintUpdate 4.2.8

After clicking the Update Manager's tray icon and typing your password,
starting Update Manager from Menu asks again for your password.

Steps to reproduce this bug:

a. Start/restart your computer
b. Click mintUpdate's tray icon. Type your password. Now you are in root mode and can see "Update Manager (as superuser)" window
c. Start Update Manager from Menu. A window pops up "again" saying: Please enter your password

[zerozero]

ok, i saw the improvements in MU and honestly have to thank Clem for looking into a tool with the importance of this one - most the users, i believe, trust MU to keep the system updated and funtional;

but,
i still believe and i wish to be proved wrong that the level policy is dangerous when applied to LMDE: we have 5 levels with 2 options each, 10 different options to get things wrongs in a rolling distribution;
we already saw people here on the forum saying, after a "breakage" -"i'm going to stick only with levels 1-2"

So, at the time my bug report was classified as a wish, now i make another wish please Clem, keep improving MU, adapting it to LMDE, but until the snapshots are in place, please disable the levels in LMDE's specific MU

edit: anyway i want to help improve MU, i'm not a coder, but i can test it in the "real life", i have an almost vanilla lmde install, i'm going to set MU to default and do all updates with it; let's see what happens

[viking777]

'm going to set MU to default and do all updates with it; let's see what happens

I too have done this, and the results are fairly adequately stated in the title of this thread. Mintupdate does look after your machine perfectly well but it does so in its own good time, not when you think it should. It frequently states that your system is up to date despite the fact that it isn't. Clem's response to this - and a perfectly valid one - is that for most people it doesn't matter when MU finds available updates as long as it does. It is only server managers or update junkies like me that expect it to work as soon as it is switched on, well it doesn't, not unless you start it manually, when it refreshes the apt cache and finds available updates.

My only problem with this is that if I have to start it manually to get it to work I might as well start Synaptic instead and save a bit of boot up time as Synaptic doesn't autostart a tray icon.

I stated earlier in the thread somewhere that MU does work and it works properly (not talking about levels here - that is a different question) but it requires one of two things either manual intervention (ie. start it yourself) or patience (ie. wait for it to find updates on its own schedule). The schedule that it uses is a complete mystery to me, yes it is set to refresh every 15 minutes but that doesn't mean to say it will find updates even when there are any, and on start up it seems to take about 3 refresh attempts (45 minutes) before it finds updates that were there from the beginning. My latest experiment is to lower the auto-refresh timeout to see if it makes MU a bit more lively

[amina]

The schedule that it uses is a complete mystery

This seems to explain it

When you login first, mintupdate is launched with your own permissions... i.e. in user mode. When in that mode it runs only in the system tray, and it does not have sufficient permissions to perform an "apt update". In other words, it does check every X minutes whether things are available, but it cannot refresh the APT cache. So if you use some other APT program in the meantime and thus refresh the APT cache yourself, mintupdate is then able to find new available updates....

[mads]

Another point to notice:

What's important to realise here, is that mintUpdate isn't designed to "alert" you in "real time". It's not a server admin tool to keep your box up to date "the minute" something is released in the repositories. Its primary function is to make it easy for people to upgrade and to prevent novice users from upgrading sensitive parts of their system (via the level system).

Comparisons like Synaptic/MU, apt-get/MU are not necessary since this tool has the goal to make it easy for people to upgrade their system and is primarily meant for novice users.
Part of the above statement is actually clem's response to my question: "why should I use MU when I can run apt-get dist-upgrade in Terminal?".

I've been using MU for 3 days now. So far, It has been doing a good job. There is a minor bug which I've reported (could anyone confirm this?). I would also like to know if MU asks
the user to keep/overwrite configuration files or if it automatically installs the package maintainer's version. Thanks.

[viking777]

Here is a little bit more information based on my observations of MU.

Yesterday I changed the default auto-refresh increment from the default 15 minutes down to 2 minutes. There were no new updates after I had done that (at least not before I switched off at night) so I had no idea of the effect it would have until this morning.

When I switched on this morning I just switched on and did absolutely nothing else on the computer thus giving MU a free hand to play its own game, this is what I observed from the MU 'information' screen.

After its first refresh - your system is up to date.
After the second refresh - your system is up to date.
After the third refresh - your system is up to date.
After the fourth refresh - 17 updates available.

Bearing in mind that the refresh interval is 2 minutes then it took 8 minutes to find the updates. I suppose there is a billion to one chance that those updates were uploaded to the server during the 2 minute interval between the third and fourth refreshes, but it isn't very likely is it. What appears to be happening is that the auto-refresh is somehow not seeing the available updates until (on this occasion) the fourth refresh. Last time I experimented it was the third refresh before it saw them. If this behavior is consistent across all MU installs, and not just peculiar to mine, the implication is that when you first switch on it will take 45-60 minutes before it finds any updates for you unless you change the auto-refresh timer.

Of course as Clem has said, to most people that is not a big problem. It is only to the 'update junkies' out there that this is an issue. Personally the first thing I do when I switch my computer on is to update it, so the option of waiting an hour before that happens is not one I would consider. The downside to having the refresh timer set low is that it will create an awful lot of unnecessary connections during the course of a day, and I wouldn't recommend it if you are on mobile broadband (which I often am). The alternative of course is manual intervention - left click the tray icon, supply a password and hit the 'refresh' button, or do the same with Synaptic and get your updates straight away.

NB I should mention that all the automatic work involved in detecting the availability of these latest updates was done with MU in user mode, so it is not necessary to switch it to root mode to detect updates if you are patient enough, though it is to install them.

[RichardM]

My apologies if this should be posted elsewhere, like in the Newbie questions section - but since this thread revolves around glitches n bugs (so to speak) in the Update Manager...

At a certain point my Update Manager stopped listing the updates that are available. In other words, it will tell me at the bottom of the window if there are updates available but the "Description" window is blank. It used to give me the info and I would prefer to have it. If there is a setting for this I have looked and not been able to find it. Without it I can still "select all" and install the updates, but without being able to see what it is I am installing! I can see what is installing in the Downloading Packages Files window but this is after the fact of clicking to install them...

Also, at some point the preferences in the Update Manager were changed and the levels became unchecked, which threw me of for a while. I am sure I did not do this myself. Is that a bug?

Thanks
Richard

[viking777]

My apologies if this should be posted elsewhere, like in the Newbie questions section - but since this thread revolves around glitches n bugs (so to speak) in the Update Manager...

At a certain point my Update Manager stopped listing the updates that are available. In other words, it will tell me at the bottom of the window if there are updates available but the "Description" window is blank. It used to give me the info and I would prefer to have it. If there is a setting for this I have looked and not been able to find it. Without it I can still "select all" and install the updates, but without being able to see what it is I am installing! I can see what is installing in the Downloading Packages Files window but this is after the fact of clicking to install them...

Also, at some point the preferences in the Update Manager were changed and the levels became unchecked, which threw me of for a while. I am sure I did not do this myself. Is that a bug?

Thanks
Richard

I will have to wait until there are some updates available to me before I can check out the first of your points Richard, although maybe someone else can confirm it before that. As for your second point, I suppose you know there have been a couple of updates to MU just recently, so maybe the 'levels' function got switched off as part of one of those changes, but as to whether this is deliberate or a bug, I don't know.

[zerozero]

now i can answer mads question a few posts above:
- when it comes to conf files MU behaves in the same way as synaptic: it just did it this morning with cups-pdf;

furthermore, the "bug" mads points to, i can confirm it too: if i have one instance of MU open (lets say trigged from the icon tray, and start another one from the menu, it asks for my root pw again and starts a new MU process killing the existing one;

[viking777]

My apologies if this should be posted elsewhere, like in the Newbie questions section - but since this thread revolves around glitches n bugs (so to speak) in the Update Manager...

At a certain point my Update Manager stopped listing the updates that are available. In other words, it will tell me at the bottom of the window if there are updates available but the "Description" window is blank. It used to give me the info and I would prefer to have it. If there is a setting for this I have looked and not been able to find it. Without it I can still "select all" and install the updates, but without being able to see what it is I am installing! I can see what is installing in the Downloading Packages Files window but this is after the fact of clicking to install them...

Also, at some point the preferences in the Update Manager were changed and the levels became unchecked, which threw me of for a while. I am sure I did not do this myself. Is that a bug?

Thanks
Richard

Right, I can finally answer your first query. For me the 'Description' window is working properly. You do have to click on an update in the main window to get the information shown to you in the lower window, but I assume you are doing that anyway.

[RichardM]

For me the 'Description' window is working properly.

okay thanks - I will keep playing around with it to try to figure it out.

[mads]

now i can answer mads question a few posts above:
- when it comes to conf files MU behaves in the same way as synaptic: it just did it this morning with cups-pdf;

furthermore, the "bug" mads points to, i can confirm it too: if i have one instance of MU open (lets say trigged from the icon tray, and start another one from the menu, it asks for my root pw again and starts a new MU process killing the existing one;

zerozero thanks.

After reading latest posts in this thread and Can we improve MintUpdate?, and my own experiences, I would say that MU is doing a good job.
What remains, is the issue about levels which you have outlined in this post, and the minor bug I've mentioned.

[viking777]

I would say that MU is doing a good job.

I can't say I agree any more Mads. After this mornings performance where it went through 16 refresh cycles (4 hours for most people) whilst still informing me that "your system is up to date" yet when I opened synaptic, immediately after the 16th cycle, there were 36 updates available.

This has nothing to do with user mode/root mode - yesterday it informed me after 4 refresh cycles that updates were available without ever being given a root login. It is simply failing to notify when updates are available or at least it is only doing so in a completely random fashion which is not really acceptable I think.

[mads]

After this mornings performance where it went through 16 refresh cycles (4 hours for most people) whilst still informing me that "your system is up to date" yet when I opened synaptic, immediately after the 16th cycle, there were 36 updates available.
This has nothing to do with user mode/root mode - yesterday it informed me after 4 refresh cycles that updates were available without ever being given a root login. It is simply failing to notify when updates are available or at least it is only doing so in a completely random fashion which is not really acceptable I think.

Hi viking777.

I hope I am wrong, but reading clem's posts in this thread, I've realized that MU is not intended/designed to notify users about new updates.
It is primarily there to help people (novice users) update their system. LMDE and now Xfce are Debian based and probably more releases will
follow. It seems like Mint team welcomes newbies changing from mainstream to Debian based releases. (Why shouldn't they if newbies are
willing to have a broken system once in a while , but at the same time enjoy running a more responsive and original release.) Anyway, because
of this, and because MU is a famous Mint tool which they don't want to abandon, Mint team keeps insisting that MU is good enough for it's
purpose which is helping people to update their system. In other words, it is not primarily there to notify users if their system is up to date or not.
When I say MU works ok, I have updating ability of MU in mind, and not it's notifying ability.

[dawgdoc]

This has nothing to do with user mode/root mode - yesterday it informed me after 4 refresh cycles that updates were available without ever being given a root login.

To add a bit more confusion to the brew: When I resume from both Suspend to Ram and Suspend to Disk, MU remains in root mode. No login is required to refresh or install. The only login/authentication configuration I recall having modified in my LMDE install is to turn off the Screensaver preference to Lock screen when screensaver is active

[zerozero]

lol this is the MU noob's corner and +1 to join the group lol

@dawgdoc: i haven't test it but probably the same happens with synaptic, the keyring remains active for a period of time, first time i open synaptic or MU they ask for the root pw but after i can close them and open again and no pw is required for a certain time (same behavior for both);

in the notifier role i'm close to mads position: it never notified me of updates, not until i ran synaptic or apt before, it's role in the panel, imho is not one of a notifier, but an ease to use, one-click-update-the-system; and we may of course question if is so why not use synaptic instead? basically, i think, because the late is hidden in the menu and MU is there, and how many clicks we need to finish an update though synaptic? 6? this is if the mark all upgrades button is there (it is in LMDE now, i have no idea about the regular versions), and 2 clicks with MU;

and overall, MU is today a lot better than it was a couple weeks ago, and today we had the test: we had a fairly complex update, removals, new pkgs and lots of upgrades and MU did it at least there's no new "fix broken packages topics" around something has changed

[dawgdoc]

@dawgdoc: i haven't test it but probably the same happens with synaptic, the keyring remains active for a period of time, first time i open synaptic or MU they ask for the root pw but after i can close them and open again and no pw is required for a certain time (same behavior for both);

Yes, same here for me with Synaptic. To be precise, there is no time out on my system for either MU or Synaptic. In terminal the sudo command does time out, which is a good thing but is different than the behavior of Synaptic and MU.

[viking777]

Well, thanks for the opinions, and don't get me wrong, I think MU has improved markedly with the latest incarnation, but I just don't subscribe to the belief that it is not a 'notifier' merely an 'updater'.

The point is that it does notify you of updates (and without running as root) but it does so on such a random schedule that it is completely unfathomable - to me anyway. First time I tried it - 4 refresh cycles, yesterday 16 refresh cycles, today 7 refresh cycles. Hardly consistent, and it should only need one cycle anyway (providing there are updates available of course, but on a rolling release you very rarely go a day without something - except Sunday perhaps).

I think for the people who are on this thread it is not a big deal, we are going to update with or without MU, but I read a post recently (admittedly it was about a month old) where someone stated that he had not had any notifications from MU about new updates for several weeks. In the end he started it manually (giving a root login) and got a whole shed load of them which promptly baulked his system. Now, had he been warned of and carried out updates in a timely manner would it have led to his system continuing to work? Impossible to answer with any certainty, but I think it is a widely held belief that leaving a rolling release for several weeks without updating it is not usually a good idea. The logical conclusion to that thought is that MU should notify you as often as it can.