Why do new people give up on Linux?

[inktitan]

Just a question.
When I go to "Linux for newbies" the thread is not listed any longer. At least I cannot see it.
I can get in by gooooogling for "Why do new people ....etc.". Yeah yeah.... leave it to Mr.G. They must spy out the forum without interruption. Last entry Google gives was 10 hrs ago. George Orwell would not have thought of it.
I can get in too if i click on "View your posts".
What happened? Am I barred, banned, exiled or what?

IT has been moved to "Chat About Linux and Other Distributions"

[sahilshinesalways]

Why do new people give up on Linux?

becoz they are doing charity work for windows who are at great loss already

[FranzB]

Ah well............ without notice it was moved. Now it is much harder to find and if you are landing on this forum as a (possible) new user of Mint to look for some anwsers (which you certainly get in places) and go to "Linux for newbies" you are not any longer confronted with "Why do new people......". It's more or less out of sight. I won't go into details.
Too bad. Part (and I repeat, part) of this forum is just like so many other forums and again I don't have to spell it out, I guess. Critical remarks are often not seen with, let's say, love and are answered with rude remarks that solve nothing. Some (some!) people here are not exactly objective with the exception of the more "advanced" Linux users and the latter should reorganize this forum so that new ones can find solutions to their problems faster without asking a question. For instance by having certain sections like "linux updater" (not the most clear feature/function) and others, and certainly see to it that questions are not made ridiculous by an answer "you are lazy". Never mind all this democracy that gives everyone the oppotunity to say what (s)he wants. There are limits as there are always. Also with Linux.
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[amina]

That's funny I was just wondering yesterday why this thread was in the Newbie questions section

[randomizer]

New people give up on Linux because they can.

[kmb42vt]

New people give up on Linux because they can.

It's part of having "ultimate choices" that Linux users keep bragging about isn't it? I can say that because I'm a Linux user (meaning a Linux based OS user as "Linux" itself is not an operating system) and I don't particularly agree with the thinking that having all these choices in the world of Linux distros is the best thing. Having ultimate choices is fine for geeks and techies, not so fine for the average user who just wants things to work...which encompasses approximately 98% of all home/mobile computer users.

Good statement on your part though.

"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (Apologizes to The Architect)

[lmintnewb]

Update: After trolling the boards, as I'm evidently addicted to at this point and need to stop, lol. Discovered another reason many people may be giving up on great and free alternatives offered by linux ( linux mint as an example). Is because windows 7 has some added M$ crappiness coded into it to more or less try to seek and destroy dual boot arrangements.

Which you can bet Linux is the number one target for that. Seems like they've cooked up a new bootloader in 7 that "repairs" itself and has a tendency to wipe out grub in the process. ( making it necessary to reinstall grub again.) Thing sounds more like a boot sector virus to me. Which M$ is apparently just cutting out the middlemen and infecting machines with windows 7 at the oem or factory now.

Nice of them to save everybody some time and just infect windows boxes at the point of origin. Since they know it's almost certainly only a matter of time before people using their buggy, crappy, overpriced, resource hogging, security nightmare software get infected with something anyway, lol. They may as well beat all the malcoders of the world to the punch and be the 1st to install some malware on their OS.

Thanks M$ !!! Keep up the craptastic traditions you're world famous for !


Any M$ hating, Linux loving anti-trust lawyers with some time on their hands that come to this board ?

[FranzB]

I agree with all the posts above. As i have been asking: why must there be so many versions of Linux? Mind you, not for that small fraction of Linux enthousiasts but for the general public to chose from. For the latter it makes things only more difficult and/or confusing when choices have to be made. Individualism is good but at a certain point it becomes a little exaggerated, almost forced. I myself had to look around quite a bit on the net before i was certain what version of Linux to go for.
µ-soft does indeed play funny tricks with the bootloader but so does Linux, be it a bit less aggressively. Let's face it. It all depends which program was installed first (but i may be wrong here).
All in all, it is never good politics to unite against an opponent on the sole premis of a dislike or disenchantment with that opponent. To me it seems somewhat negative. It would be far better to forget about that and concentrate on your own good points. Highlight your own good points, not the bad ones of the opponent. Again this is black and white but it serves getting my point across.
This whole discussion here may seem somewhat irrelevant since it has nothing to do with technical questions. However, i do think that one has to look at it because it is important when a decision has to be
made how to proceed. And i am wondering whether that should be up to the forum members. In my opinion the people working on the programs have to do that. What do they want? I have read quite a few threads
but i don't think that their voices are heard often on the forum. They've got other priorities, obviously. But still..... sometimes you have to come down from the ivory tower (and i do not use that expression in a derogatory way. I have been there myself often enough, as a matter of fact it is necessary but at a certain point you have to come down; then you can climb up again).
The programmers should have a brain storming session, including people working on Ubuntu, Mint, Suse etc. etc.
Just my two bits and i may be kicking in open doors.

[lmintnewb]

Somewhat agree ... though also somewhat disagree with the you shouldn't take shots at "competitors" thing. When they are well deserved shots and those "competitors" are going to extra ordinary lengths to sabotage better alternatives to their products it's more than warranted. It's not being negative ... it's being realistic.

In the case of M$, making a bootloader to sabotage linux esp. Would actually be a very mild approach for them. Compared to so many other things they've done. Those are just the times they were caught too. It's my personal experience. That for every 1 time a person is caught doing something insidious. They've done 1,000 similar things and gotten away free and clear.

lol ... know I have through-out my life. More like 20,000 to 1 ... Also thought it helpful to point out poss complications people running windows 7 + linux might want to think about. To save themselves some unnecessary aggravation and headache's down the road.

Agree with you that linux does have too many different divided camps and factions going. And it is overwhelming. Found Mint by sheer luck and glad I did. Cause it's a neat and sweet OS right out of the box. Stumbled on mention of it while researching buntu. But choices, choices, choices is also one of this OS's strengths. Just makes it much harder to penetrate into the normal desktop/laptop arena overall I guess.

Regardless I don't view M$ as a "competitor". Since I don't make software for a living. So don't overly care if M$ lives, dies or grows daisies in it's crack, lol. Actually that's not true. Would like to see that corp shrivel up and die. Should've happened years ago imo. But from what I've experienced personally and much additional overwhelming evidence.

Taking well deserved shots at M$ has become a sort of hobby of mine. So please do not rag on me about it, lol. I wouldn't be critical of you, if ya like stamp collecting.

[inktitan]

Linux exists for diversity. it is an opportunity for programmers to set out and make their own customized OS and let other tinker with it and improve upon it. We will see more distros rise and fall. If people leave Linux it is because ultimately they do not want it. You know who else thought diversity was a weakness? Hitler. Diversity is why Linux exists. You have choices because not everybody is the same. So why make one more OS/Kernel/Platform that is how it is and you just have to deal with it? That would be stupid. Windows is Windows. Mac OS is Mac OS . Linux is whatever you want. If you do not want to have your own personalized Linux you can pick prebuilt OS's like Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora and some 300 others. The three I mentioned are prebuilt and functional but you can still tinker with them as you see fit. If you do not want to you do not have to. Linux was not built to appeal to the masses but to those who like making their own decisions. If you want your computer to work independently from you then you can chose an OS that does that. 2% of the world is filled with geniuses and leaders as you like to point out. 98% of the market is filled with sheep. I do not think these numbers are accurate I do not know where your sources are and I know I am using different words but that is how I interpret it. I know I am coming off as bitter. That's because I am. I just do not understand how you can be so against diversity. And as I have said before if Linux were a business most of your arguments would be sound. But most distros are not trying to attract the masses but are trying to remain appealing to those that already use it. Why alienate your users to attract more users if you are not in it for profit? It has been said before (and I don't want this to be an end all statement because I enjoy the counter points) People leave Linux because they do not want Linux. Typically they want a free Windows. ReactOS comes close to offering that and is not Unix/Linux based. Linux can offer alternative to the programs people use in Windows but usually can not run their Windows programs as smoothly. So they dump it out of fear that something free can not possibly be as good as something they paid for. I do not hate Microsoft. Windows just doesn't run on my PC. I like being able to upgrade for free. I like having different options. I like being able to change my icons without paying or getting some buggy patch. These are small things. The mass majority like to pay for things. Makes them feel good. Ubuntu has a store where you can pay what you want. And all distros have a donate section. But Linux is not for everyone. Someday someone like Ubuntu will start shipping on HP computers and Linovo and Asus (if Dell wasn't so cowardly on the subject their name would have made the list). But when this happens more people will come to Linux. Oh and look at Chrome OS. All web browser for those who care even less about what computers can do. But I hope that isn't the other choices that broke the camel's back.

[lmintnewb]

Ahhhh wall of text ... I'm blind, I'm blind !!! The return button on inktitan comp must not be working, lol.

Kidding around ... agree with a bunch of that too for sure. Fairly sure google's OS will be based on linux. If I remember correctly. Makes mucho sense for them to spend some of their gazillions taking over the personal computing OS and web browser market. Someone like google getting involved could certainly speed up M$ demise. Which is a great thing in my view. Cause I really do wanna see M$ .. DIE, DIE, DIE !!! lol ...

Though, in the overall scheme of things. Not sure if jumping from one crappy megacorp to another is a step up in the world. Would seem more like a step sideways. Which is why linux has long since been near and dear to me. Though took one final straw from M$ letting me down one too many times. To bring me to my senses and encourage me to jump into the ocean of Linux. Now that I'm here, plan to stay and the water is fine.

Will be promoting linux mint to others without a doubt. I mean it's not like it'd kill them. It's free and took me a couple minutes to figure out how to dual boot it alongside a M$ OS. Though as mentioned seems like M$ has yet again gone out of their way to make the world safe for buggy, crappy, expensive closed source software with windows 7 ... sighs.

Ok I'll stop being a thread hog. Need to let off on spending so much time on these forums too. Tweaking around with mint and posting's all I've been getting done lately.

[randomizer]

Which you can bet Linux is the number one target for that. Seems like they've cooked up a new bootloader in 7 that "repairs" itself and has a tendency to wipe out grub in the process. ( making it necessary to reinstall grub again.) Thing sounds more like a boot sector virus to me. Which M$ is apparently just cutting out the middlemen and infecting machines with windows 7 at the oem or factory now.

That is why you use separate storage devices I have the Windows bootloader sitting on my SSD blissfully unaware of its Free counterpart on my HDD. I can chop and change distros all I want and it doesn't matter how badly I screw them up because I can still boot Windows normally if I need to get some work done.

[lmintnewb]

Agree with you randomizer. But you know what you're doing. Most PC users won't, tell em install it on a virtual machine or whichever other approaches people are having much dual boot success with and their eyes will cross.

Ya know the end result though. Will send many/most of them running back to what they're familiar with ... winblows. Many will probably even blame it on the distro of linux they tried to install I'd bet. So they'll go around telling people what a nightmare this linux thing is. Rather than M$, where the blame rightfully belongs.

Cause the opensource community make software to make it all it can be. M$ makes software to make money off of people and to protect the monopoly they have going on PC's.

[FranzB]

Well, i am starting to feel a bit ..... yeah, what? ..... Seems i have started an avalanche. It is good though to
clear up things and make clear what Linux is all about.
To Inktitan especially: i am not against individualism. Not at all. On the contrary. I am probably extremely individualistic and often stand apart and not just from big crowds that i really hate. But i don't really need my
"own" designs on my laptop. It is a footnote and has not much to do with real life; for me, that is. Same goes for this internet. For me it does not serve as an escape from the crowd that, btw, has a character totally independent of the character of its individual members.
My point, however, was not against all the choices per se that Linux has to offer. Wrong conclusion. My point is that those choices may keep many computer users away from it and that is what this thread is supposed to be about, isn't it? And especially, what to do to change it, given that Linux people DO want to change that.To repeat it again, "Why do new people give up on Linux?" .... who cares! Why bring up the subject? I am NOT against diversity but then don't complain that you cannot bring people in larger numbers to
Linux. That's all.
But even for this minority that uses Linux or wants to give it a try it wouldn't be bad to have a very logically set up user's guide where all of the options are clearly written down (i do know the official Mint guide so don't refer me to that). You have to go here and there, jump back again to find your way, often by trial and error. There are even many guides and help pages. But it is searching, searching, searching. I don't need that exercise to keep my brains working.
It took me a long time to write all this. Changing it again and again and i will probably be thrown out of my login due to a time limit. Let's see.
In any case, thanks to all who have gone through great lengths to post answers. On me it has not been wasted.

[inktitan]

@FranzB This website may help.http://distrowatch.com/ It is a fairly concise encyclopedia of all the current changes to the various distros but offers a little insight into each as well. It gives links to their pages so that you may read their mission if you so chose. If more new comers new of this site I think a lot of the misconceptions would be cleared up. But I agree that some options for customizing an OS are useless. But aesthetics are why some people chose an OS.

[sahilshinesalways]

... Someday someone like Ubuntu will start shipping on HP computers and Linovo and Asus (if Dell wasn't so cowardly on the subject their name would have made the list). But when this happens more people will come to Linux..

well acer ship Linux already instead of free dos.
ASUS middle range mobo's (may be lappies as wee) ships with splash top linux for quick boot and internet(though it feels less den a os still...) and same feature is shippe by few hp latops and they call it quickboot i guess...
linux is making its ground faster then it can imagine in recent times and heartly thanx to vista whose downfall accelerated this process

[maccydg]

I have used Windows ever since I learnt to use a PC, and I would count myself as above-average, in terms of ability (have done a little bit of programming, can solve most problems myself, or at worst have to do a quick Google search). I want to like Linux, but I find that Windows is easier to use in one significant way, and it is this reason that deters me from using a Linux OS as my primary. I think there may be many other Windows users like me.

OK, I am used to very, very occasionally reverting to the old DOS command prompt when I need to muck about with a hard drive and the standard Windows Disk Management won't cut it. But apart from that, everything I need to do has a nice, clear GUI, and accompanying instructions telling me what to do. Last time I tried Linux again, it was Linux Mint LXDE, and so far I like it best, of the distros I've tried. It's quick, looks good, doesn't hog resources, and has a small install footprint. But I wanted to carry out the simple task of increasing the double-click sensitivity of the touchpad. I must've spent three hours in all, perhaps longer, trawling forums, trying out suggestions to give myself admin privileges, then make this new file, open Terminal, type this, move this file here, etc, and only the last suggestion worked. In Windows, I simply do Control Panel > Mouse > Double-Click Speed, all within GUIs. Yes, I know Synaptics makes its own device driver for Windows, which it doesn't for Linux, and this is not the fault of any Linux developers, but I'm just telling it like it is: no-one wants to spend ages trying to get their system to a basic usable state, when they could make a few quick clicks. This is one example that is highly typical of my general experiences with Linux.

I do not, like some new Linux users, expect to be handed anything on a plate: it's free, after all, and most of the people who work on it do so out of generosity towards others who use computers. And I don't think I need to explain to you the many advantages that Linux OSs have over Windows. But until Linux is as easy to use as Windows XP (what I'm on at the moment), I'll be sticking with it as long as it's supported!

[AlbertP]

Many people think that in Windows all hardware works automatically, because manufacturers pre-install all drivers. When re-installing Windows, they get upset about not working wireless or things like that. In fact, I got used to the auto working of many hardware so I forgot to install drivers at a Windows reinstall at someone. And that Synaptic driver for Windows has some bugs: Windows Update installed a non-working version over the preinstalled one. I had to reinstall the original driver to get the touchpad working again.

[sahilshinesalways]

because they are dumb xD

[azathoth]

Why do new people give up on Linux?
Because some things are simply not meant to be.