Should Linux Mint end it's reliance on Ubuntu?

[dawgdoc]

The question is not of immediate direct concern to me because 1) like MALsPA I have Mint 9 LTS installed and will not change it until it is no longer supported. 2) I also have LMDE installed and it is my primary use system.

I think that the Mint devs will have more work on their shoulders keeping Mint consistent while Ubuntu is undergoing all of its changes. Gnome3 but not Shell or Unity. Changes in Ubuntu's default software - but Mint has not always used Canonical's default anyway (Banshee/Rhythmbox, F-Spot/gThumb/, Thunderbird/Evolution, etc) . But this point will cause a fuss because if Mint follows Ubuntu on some of these we will see rounds of "Where did X go, it is what I always use...." (It's in the repositories, not hard to install what you want.) Then there will be the necessity to adapt to changes in the Ubuntu's login manager; from GDM to LightDM.

I see all of Ubuntu's changes affecting the Mint devs more than new users to Linux. The new users will not know what the previous version was like, so the biggest thing will be helping them learn to use a new system. Most of the complaints will come from those who have been using Mint for one or more releases. Here is where the static will be generated.

I stay with the LTS for a couple of reasons. When I help others put Mint on their systems, I have everybody on the same thing instead of people upgrading at various points. Even though LTS cycle is extended, the apps do not get that out of date and I can easily update an app if it is essential; from PPA, .deb or source as needed. When using commercial software in Windows I never bought the annual release of each application that I used. Since new versions of FOSS software are sometimes step changes instead of major revisions I do not fret not running all of the latest-greatest.

Since I primarily use LMDE and it is a rolling release I am getting updated apps. This will hold true until the next app freeze in Debian, which at a guess is 18 months away. At that point the freeze will probably last 6 to 12 months. It is arguable that distros based on Ubuntu are more current than those based on Debian testing because Ubuntu is based on Debian sid. So a new version of a package could make it into an Ubuntu release before it makes it to testing.


I've heard it said that no likes change except for a baby. Personally I think they kick up a pretty good fuss while being changed. They just like the results after the fact.

[meskarune]

And should it shift to Debian for all it's releases?

Number of reasons :

1) Canonical is doing a great disservice by not contributing to the code.

Not sure where you are getting this. Ubuntu and Debian have been doing plenty of collaborating... Many of the ubuntu devs also work for debian...

2) Paid software in the Software Centre; in effect it wants to create an ecosystem and create lock ins. Its the same strategy as Apple. Create a visually appealing product and then unknown to most of it's fanbois, use proprietary standards to disallow genuine innovation. To me, Open Source is "free" (I would donate) but the idea of paid applications is reprehensible. Before you flame me, there is a huge majority of people living below the digital divide who cannot afford the cost of an Operating System let alone hardware (in third world countries).

Again I think you are confused. There is a HUGE difference between proprietary and charging for software. Open source software DOES NOT mean "free as in beer" but "free as in speech". Open source = the source code is free and the user is free to install, change or copy the software as they like. Proprietary means that the source code is not available and that the software is "rented out" with a license agreement that the user must abide by.

I gladly paid money for the game "World of Goo". It is an open source "free" game. Just because I paid money for it, does NOT make it proprietary. There is NOTHING wrong with charging money for open source software. You get better support, quicker updates, etc when you pay money.

You probably have flash, Java, and media codecs installed on your computer. Guess what? Those ARE proprietary, even though they are free to download. This means they force the user to abide by a user agreement and lock you into how you can use the software.

There a a lot of people who cannot afford the cost of a mansion, does that mean we should give everyone a mansion for free? This argument that "some people don't have money" is not logical at all.

Please read up on the free software movement.

3) It's shift to Unity discarding Gnome.

If you don't like unity, uninstall it. Unity is just window decoration. Mint is not obligated to use it just because Ubuntu is.

4) 6 monthly release cycles. While I understand that Linux Mint emphasizes back up tools and FRESH installation, it's a pain in the ass for lazy bums like me.

Just use the Long Term Release versions of mint or switch to a rolling release linux distribution like debian testing or arch linux.

[passstab]

it does kill me a little bit that mint is ubuntu based but i recognize that mint is focused on being beginner friendly first and formost so i dissagree with switching entirely for reasons of freedom/anit-corporate/etc altho thay do give me a bias

if Mint follows Ubuntu on some of these we will see rounds of "Where did X go

literally as ubuntu is switching to wayland
i don't think any decision has been made but i can't imagine that we are switching in mint 12 or 13 which would mean more work to keep x going
maybe between that, the 6 month cycle and unity (which might make sense to use at some point but not yet)
makeing CUT (or maybe even stable) editions would be worth it

[dawgdoc]

if Mint follows Ubuntu on some of these we will see rounds of "Where did X go

literally as ubuntu is switching to wayland
i don't think any decision has been made but i can't imagine that we are switching in mint 12 or 13 which would mean more work to keep x going
maybe between that, the 6 month cycle and unity (which might make sense to use at some point but not yet)
makeing CUT (or maybe even stable) editions would be worth it

After I posted the above I realized that I had not mentioned the change to Wayland from X11. (I was referring to application X, or application Foo.)

Once Ubuntu does change to Wayland could it be that Clem will be forced into all of the Ubuntu changes if he wants to keep it as a base? I imagine Wayland will entail numerous system level changes. Would distros based on Ubuntu see it as worthwhile to excise Wayland instead of changing bases? I may not be as drastic as I would anticipate, I recall reading that Wayland will still run X based applications/functions on top of itself. Who knows Wayland may be glorious. It looks like Fedora's switch to Wayland is not as far along as Ubuntu's.

[AlbertP]

With Wayland we will get full support for hybrid graphics, with X we need to run two X servers to switch between them.
I think Wayland is the way to the future as soon as the most important bugs are fixed, and I often like a change.
I don't like Mint releases that are too much the same. After 5 mins, this was my impression of Linux Mint 11 but after some more time I discovered new things and really like Mint 11 (but not the decision to remove the bootsplash but I don't really care as the boot is shorter).

[passstab]

yes nothing on wayland i just doubt it will be stable enough for clem for the next couple releaces

[michaelzap]

Unless Mint wants to follow Ubuntu down the Unity rabbit hole, there's no reason to keep basing releases on it. Being based on Debian will allow Mint to become whatever it wants to become. Sticking with Ubuntu would just create more and more headaches trying to separate the bugs from the bloat.

[AlbertP]

I think we should just keep making seperate Ubuntu and Debian editions. I may start using Ubuntu or another Ubuntu derivative if Mint is going to be Debian only.

[karashata]

I do have to admit that keeping an Ubuntu-derived version of Mint would be a good idea. I've run both Ubuntu-based and Debian-based Mint on here, and while both work reasonably well, the Ubuntu base performs somewhat better overall for me. Sound works better in the Ubuntu base for me than in the Debian base, with LMDE my Adobe AIR applications either do not play sound at all (when other applications are playing sound), or play sounds but block everything else from playing sounds (when nothing else is playing sound). The Ubuntu base doesn't have that issue. Neither does the Ubuntu base have issues installing all of the required 32-bit libraries in order for Adobe AIR to run on x64, for some reason installing the 32-bit library packages in the Debian base still didn't install *everything* needed and I was left manually installing the missing libraries...

Let's face it, the Ubuntu base is just a little more friendly for new, less experienced Linux users. The Debian base may in some ways be better, and may be fine for more experienced users who know how to fix things when they break or how to make things work when they just don't seem to want to, but in terms of having things "just work", and in terms of making things work when they aren't, the Ubuntu base does seem to be more friendly.

That's my two cents on the issue.

[AlbertP]

It's also my opinion. I want my computer to just work, and don't like fixing breakages caused by updates. The only breakage I have had from an update while using Ubuntu-based Mint was coming from a PPA (Wine 1.3.19 where one of my Windows apps failed).

[lmintnewb]

JMO ... just my opinion.

But a resounding yes. I personally dislike ubuntu for various reasons. Though o course that's just me. Think Mint does ubuntu, by far better than ubuntu does ubuntu. Thinking and hoping once they get things sorted out. They'll be able to do the same with pure Debian based Mint releases.

From what many of the ( experienced linux ) Mint users running Debian releases are saying. Looks like the Magic Mint development team is already making leaps and bounds towards that goal. Haven't used it personally, but betting Mint debian ... like lmde is already summin grand and will only get better in time.

Though all these are just the ramblings of a linux newb. I don't know anything about all that goes into producing Mint. I'm sure they work very hard to produce the great software they release. Can't say there was anything wrong with Mint 10 ( buntu based.) Other than I'm just prejudiced against anything buntu.

It worked fine ... Think Mint HQ did a fantastic job. Esp when comparing what Mint made of buntu vs the pure ubuntu version(s) I tried. Oh well ... it's out of my hands. Guessing the people behind Mint know more about Linux and which direction they should go. Than I ever will ...



(pointless babbling edit)

Not sure where you are getting this. Ubuntu and Debian have been doing plenty of collaborating... Many of the ubuntu devs also work for debian...

Might be getting the impression from ubuntu's main website. Hard to find a mention of Debian there. Although buntu is summin like 3/4's unchanged Debian code. In my linux net travels have seen many people griping about buntu's lack of contribution back to Debian.

Seems like they like to be a one way street and take from Debian's people. While not giving proper respect and credit, much less contribute back. Which is just one of many reasons I've grown to dislike buntu. Main one being everytime I've tried one of their releases. Found it to be bloated, low-performing, user-unfriendly junk.

Seems like all the best ubuntu is made by people other than ubuntu. Like Linux Mint for example. Also looks like many of those variations are offloading buntu and going to pure Debian themselves. Ala crunchbang. Think they ended their dealings with buntu too. Not 100% on that one though.

Have mucho respect for meskarune. From what I've seen of her in the forums. She's obviously a very intelligent woman. Just elaborating on some of the reasons I dislike ubuntu. Think they should definitely make their assoc with such a renown distro of Linux like Debian more prominent. Again though ... just linux newb opinions and pointless babbling, shrugs.

PS, and oh yeah. Found a bunch of the mods on their main forum to be anal. Who likes anal people ?

[kvv]

yes nothing on wayland i just doubt it will be stable enough for clem for the next couple releaces

Either way, I doubt that Wayland is going to make it into 12.04 LTS, seems to be too major of a change. So, the mint devs have a good 1.5 years to get ready.

[colyn]

Ubuntu is constantly changing and with unity they are really doing their own thing. I think ubuntu isn't a very stable base, and it would benefit mint in the long run to differentiate themselves more and use the more stable debian base. Also rolling releases are awesome.

I agree. Mint should adopt Debian as their base. Ubuntu releases whether or not it is ready and Mint then has to refine it before release..

I'm using a rolling release OS and love it..

[nunol]

I partially agree. I think Mint should adopt Debian as the base but it should keep at least one edition based on Ubuntu even if only based on LTS versions.

[driekus]

Im all in favour of ending the reliance of Linux Mint on Ubuntu.
I have used Linux Mint Debian and like it a lot. The only thing I didnt like is that when you boot up Linux Mint Debian you see the Debian Desktop momentarily before the Linux Mint theme takes over. I think a bit of polish of the Debian release will make it equal to the standard release of Linux Mint.

In terms of the whole proprietary software debate, why can't the end user decide. Why not have a button to enable proprietary and a button to enable paid open source software. I love linux mint and its inclusion of proprietary codecs and drivers. I don't mind paying for open-source software at all, but can understand why people do not want to have anything to do with paid software.

Just my two cents worth. I love linux mint regardless.

[craig10x]

I've used both the debian testing LMDE and the ubuntu based Mint...some of you may have your prejudices toward ubuntu...but my conclusion was: if you want a very stable and reliable system, ubuntu base is the way to go....you want most or all of things to work without fuss? Again ubuntu base is the way to go...whether you want to admit it or not...it's just plain how it is...

I went back to main edition Mint from LMDE after months of frustration..things breaking, applications not working right....so curse ubuntu all you want..they STILL provide a better Linux experience...

[nunol]

I went back to main edition Mint from LMDE after months of frustration..things breaking, applications not working right....so curse ubuntu all you want..they STILL provide a better Linux experience...

I know what you mean but that is the way with Debian testing. If Mint had a Debian stable version it would be much more stable. So far both LMDE and Mint XFCE take some work to keep it working.

[passstab]

maybe we should focus on switching lmde to CUT or makeing a stable edition
and then makeing that the main before droping ubuntu

[AlbertP]

I think we should just make a modified Ubuntu. The repository of Ubuntu has many programs and many other programs are supplied in Ubuntu .deb form. If it stays compatible, people can easier switch between Ubuntu and Mint. And I don't think Mint will ship with Gnome Shell or Unity in v12. I think that we'll get Gnome 3 without the shell in Mint 12.

[rekik]

If Mint had a Debian stable version it would be much more stable

More stable but with outdated softs, no support for new hardware etc. It's a very good choice for servers and some people but not for the majority.