GNOME 3 by Linus Torvalds

[linuxviolin]

Linus Torvalds: Linus Torvalds Not a Fan of Gnome 3

the user experience of Gnome3 even without rendering problems is unacceptable.

[MALsPa]

He changes his tune every few years. Three years from now, he might be back to using KDE, or maybe back to GNOME.

[linuxviolin]

He changes his tune every few years.

Yes, but also because the state of the Linux desktop is "unacceptable". KDE 4 was unacceptable, although now the only about correct modern desktop, they kill GNOME, XFCE is "never really there" and it's a step down from gnome2, as said Linus... Developers of the Linux desktop are , err... crazy.

Here are all posts by Linus on "the Google+ posting by Linux kernel hacker Dave Jones" quoted in the article:

Linus Torvalds -: While you are at it, could you also fork gnome, and support a gnome-2 environment?

I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3.

Linus Torvalds - +Cyrill Gorcunov: it's not that I have rendering problems with gnome3 (although I do have those too), it's that the user experience of Gnome3 even without rendering problems is unacceptable.

Why can't I have shortcuts on my desktop? Why can't I have the expose functionality? Wobbly windows? Why does anybody sane think that it's a good idea to have that "go to the crazy 'activities'" menu mode?

I used to be upset when gnome developers decided it was "too complicated" for the user to remap some mouse buttons. In gnome3, the developers have apparently decided that it's "too complicated" to actually do real work on your desktop, and have decided to make it really annoying to do.

Here's an example of "the crazy": you want a new terminal window. So you go to "activities" and press the "terminal" thing that you've made part of your normal desktop thing (but why can't I just have it on the desktop, instead of in that insane "activities" mode?). What happens? Nothing. It brings your existing terminal to the forefront.

That's just crazy cr**. Now I need to use Shift-Control-N in an old terminal to bring up a new one. Yeah, that's a real user experience improvement. Sure.

I'm sure there are other ways, but that's just an example of the kind of "head up the arse" behavior of gnome3. Seriously. I have been asking other developers about gnome3, they all think it's crazy.

I'm using Xfce. I think it's a step down from gnome2, but it's a huge step up from gnome3. Really.

At the end of the article the author is asking:

is it just indicative of the overall dysfunction of Linux desktop environments in general?

We can answer: YES!

[MALsPa]

Yes, but also because the state of the Linux desktop is "unacceptable".

Depends on your point of view, I guess. What's unacceptable to some is fine for others. I find that I enjoy each of the DEs/WMs that I've got installed here, and I have quite a few different ones. Maybe I'm just easy to please. I get a kick trying out DEs and WMs and I guess sometimes I focus on the positive more than the negative.

As for GNOME 3, I like Unity better right now, but I've installed Unity and spent some time with it, while I've only run GNOME 3 a few times from live sessions. GNOME 3 is different but I think I could get used to it. Sounds like it's important to add some things like gnome-tweak-tool. It'll be interesting to see how it looks in a year or two.

[tdockery97]

I think Linus might be pleased with the progress KDE has made lately. If I knew him I would drive the 48 miles to Portland and show him.

[Matti L]

Linus Torvalds is smart. I thought that everyone knows that if it works, don't break it, but seems Unity and Gnome developers think it's the other way around. When I can't use Gnome 2 anymore I'm gonna try out KDE first and if I don't like it then use XFCE or LXDE.

I saw some new Firefox layout mockups and I'm thinking "what the hell do I do with giant buttons on a big computer screen that is not a touchscreen. I want text and small icons like in the old days.

[Shaine]

The things Linus is c/o are easily fixed, such as desktop shortcuts or dash-panel launchers. But maybe what he means is that the end user shouldn't have to use editors to make these tweaks. Mint team could be looking at the most common complaints about Gnome 3 and answering with a tweaked one to fix those issues. It will be interesting to see what DE is implemented on Mint 12.

[altair4]

It would appear that his comments are in the context of developers talking to developers. These are the folks that create the systems, applications, and content that the rest of use use and consume. No doubt they use "grandpa machines" to do all this work and for them the desktop environment is a platform to get work done not a hobby. I would guess they don't have a lot of time to find a fix for the damage done by the latest update or to compensate somehow for the ever decreasing loss of functionality and efficiency exhibited by each new iteration of the these DE's.

Pure speculation on my part of course since I don't know the man personally

[monkeyboy]

Linus Torvalds: Linus Torvalds Not a Fan of Gnome 3

the user experience of Gnome3 even without rendering problems is unacceptable.

Using any persons opinion to support your opinion still equates to opinion supporting opinion. Regardless of how you try to spin it is a failure in logic.

[linuxviolin]

Depends on your point of view, I guess. What's unacceptable to some is fine for others.

Maybe but notice that I put quotation marks

I find that I enjoy each of the DEs/WMs that I've got installed here, and I have quite a few different ones. Maybe I'm just easy to please. I get a kick trying out DEs and WMs and I guess sometimes I focus on the positive more than the negative..

Well, although I have used quite often FVWM and Window Maker (I liked it very much) a long time ago, in 2011 I need a real, complete desktop. I don't care about WMs...

Unity is also cra***, although perhaps a little more usable than GNOME 3, perhaps.

Here is another article: Linus Torvalds would like to see a GNOME fork
Me too, but it won't happen.

As said in the article, even the Intel’s chief Linux and open-source technologist, Dirk Hohndel, hates it:

Gnome 3 is just completely unusable as far as I’m concerned.

The end of the article is quite interesting too:

Long time readers of mine know that I was really unhappy when KDE, the other major Linux desktop, decided to go in a new direction with KDE 4. As KDE 4 matured, I eventually started to like it.

I’m not sure that’s going to happen with GNOME 3.x. With KDE 4, I saw where they wanted to go, I just didn’t think it was a great idea. With GNOME… I really don’t know what they’re trying to do. It looks to me like change just for the sake of change, and that’s pointless.

Of course, it’s one thing when just a technology journalist, like me, doesn’t like what you’re doing. But, when leading Linux developers dislike a desktop this much, and one major Linux distribution, Ubuntu, dislikes it so much that they decided to replace the GNOME 3 shell with an entirely different desktop approach, Unity, I think it’s time for GNOME’s developers to sit down and seriously consider whether they’ve should backtrack to the GNOME 2 architecture.

[MALsPa]

Here is another article about Linus: Linus Torvalds would like to see a GNOME fork
Me too, but it won't happen.

Mate Desktop Environment.

http://matsusoft.com.ar/redmine/projects/mate

[MALsPa]

Well, although I have used quite often FVWM and Window Maker (I liked it very much) a long time ago, in 2011 I need a real, complete desktop. I don't care about WMs...

No reason why you have to use a WM by itself. Right now I'm typing from AwesomeWM in Debian Squeeze. I use GNOME and KDE apps in there, though. It's great, you should try it sometime. Just kidding, I know you aren't interested.

[lmintnewb]

Just a pointless 2 cents on the opinion supported by opinion. That's called getting facts straight. When a leading authority announces an opinion on a given development in their field. People who disregard it, need to have their thinkers checked and/or oil changed. When it comes to linux, Linus Torvald by any reasonable standard has to be considered a leading authority on the subject.

If he doesn't like gnome 3, the devs behind gnome should imo, DEFINITELY take that strongly into consideration. With so much mobile computing and smallish mobile tech devices now. It's interesting to watch some of the bigtime gnu/nix software projects scramble to adapt for it. Personally don't overly care about gnome or kde. Have low spec hardware, though even with top of the line hardware. Would still no doubt be running something lighter and minimalistic WM's anyway. I prefer them to DE's in pretty much every regard. Xfce is about as high as I'd want to go and would much rather stay with windows managers over DE's no matter what.

Also no matter what gnome decides to do. Thinking nix users everywhere can rest assured there will always be alternatives open for desktop/lappy nix users. From full DE's to WM's galore.

[MALsPa]

When it comes to linux, Linus Torvald by any reasonable standard has to be considered a leading authority on the subject.

If he doesn't like gnome 3, the devs behind gnome should imo, DEFINITELY take that strongly into consideration.

True, but at first he didn't like GNOME and liked KDE. Then he didn't like KDE4 and liked GNOME. Now he doesn't like GNOME3 and likes Xfce. Seems like every time he's in the news saying he doesn't like something, I find out that I like it. So, I'm not sure why the devs should pay all that much attention to what he likes. People have different reasons for why the like or dislike a DE.

[lmintnewb]

Well of course people's opinions change. Things change ... if he doesn't like what gnome is doing now. Guessing he has good reason for it. If gnome changes, surely his opinion could change accordingly. Reasonable enough way to look at things. Does your opinion on a particular subject stay the same, even when the situation has changed ?

[linuxviolin]

and likes Xfce.

No, he doesn't like really XFCE. He just says it is less worse/bad than GNOME 3. Re-read my quote in one of my posts:

I'm using Xfce. I think it's a step down from gnome2, but it's a huge step up from gnome3. Really.

And he's not alone. Look at what also says the Intel’s chief Linux and open-source technologist, Dirk Hohndel, in my last post for example...

So, these big guys also think, like myself and others, the current state of the desktop is not really good...

[MALsPa]

Does your opinion on a particular subject stay the same, even when the situation has changed ?

No, sir. I didn't like GNOME, years ago.

But I realized that a lot of people did, so I spent time with it to find out why. Ended up liking it. Same with most other DEs or WMs I've tried -- including KDE4, and most recently Unity. So I'm keeping an open mind about GNOME 3, too.

A lot of people like Xfce or KDE4 or Unity or GNOME 3. There are reasons why they like them. Just because one person, even Torvalds, thinks something is no good doesn't mean that it's no good.

You know what they say about a$$holes and opinions. Everybody's got one.

[fraxinus_63]

When it comes to linux, Linus Torvald by any reasonable standard has to be considered a leading authority on the subject.

If he doesn't like gnome 3, the devs behind gnome should imo, DEFINITELY take that strongly into consideration.

True, but at first he didn't like GNOME and liked KDE. Then he didn't like KDE4 and liked GNOME. Now he doesn't like GNOME3 and likes Xfce. Seems like every time he's in the news saying he doesn't like something, I find out that I like it. So, I'm not sure why the devs should pay all that much attention to what he likes. People have different reasons for why the like or dislike a DE.

I think the real picture is rather more complex than this, from what I gather. Linus was always critical of Gnome 2's habit of hiding configuration options. However, he ended up moving to Gnome 2 or 3 years ago because his distro is Fedora, and he found that the latest release offered the immature, unfinished KDE 4.0 as its only KDE option! He adopted Gnome because he realised rapidly that the new KDE in its immature state was not a great environment for doing WORK in. Now he is drawing attention to similar problems with Gnome 3.

I have never liked KDE 4 much, but it is following a wise strategy in producing different editions for 'conventional' desktops and for portable devices. IMHO, Gnome's and Unity's wish to produce single interfaces that suit desktop PCs and touchscreens is terribly mistaken.

Interesting to note, elsewhere on that Google+ thread, than Jon Masters shares Linus's view on Gnome Shell and also envisages moving to XFCE.

[DrHu]

I seem to remember that Linus saying that he didn't care about the GUI or desktop, as long as it didn't get in his way

That he uses Linux mostly from a terminal and is generally concerned with compilation speed and less with any desktop style or issue; however he no doubt looks at them enough to decide whether or not he thinks the performance matches the hype and probably decries the idea that Linux is moving towards the Windows or Apple crowd in promoting eye candy and gimmicks instead of performance an productivity

He might be in the minority (obviously, as it is not the populist view for Linux distributions), but even so he would not be alone in that idea.

So I use LXDE instead of Gnome or KDE, and I quite like it, except for a few minor deficiencies, such as no menu editor; however it is fairly close to a classic Linux desktop menu, and I find that quite refreshing

I for example don't need the Constanta re-branding/repackaging of a package manager just to improve it ? or be different or identify your brand name..etc

[linuxviolin]

fraxinus_63, quite interesting and good post.

the idea that Linux is moving towards the Windows (...) crowd

Windows is more usable than GNOME 3...