LMDE BREAKAGES - (Tracking SID!) -{CLOSED}

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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby GeneC on Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:00 pm

Brian

What happens if you select the packages in Synaptic and try to upgrade? (I know they are held back, but you can force them). If I do it, it will removed my Nvidia, not good for me. :shock:

Perhaps, for you it will remove nothing?
I am thinking the "hold back" is for everybody, but only pertinent to Nvidia, and I believe ATI.

It may be OK to upgrade for everyone else.

Not saying it wont Bork your system.

===========================================
EDIT:

Oops! sorry, didnt read your post thoroughly
On a dist-upgrade they aren't held back, but xserver-xorg would be removed, making it impossible to load the desktop.


Looks bad for you too. :?
GeneC

AMD Phenom2x4 3.2 ghz, 12GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 460

1. LMDE(201303) - Gnome Shell 3.6/Cin. 1.8 - Testing
2. LMDE - XFCE 4.10 - SID

3. SolydXK/KDE 4.10-3/SID
(All 64bit multiarch, Nvidia 319.17 - Liquorix 3.8.xx)
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby karashata on Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:19 pm

I recently upgraded to the newer version of Xorg, two of the related packages had installed were removed (xserver-xorg and xserver-xorg-video-fbdev), however neither of them removed the ability to boot to a graphical desktop. The xserver-xorg package appears to be a meta-package that pulls in all of the drivers and the server, and does not actually provide the server itself. That would likely be xserver-xorg-core that provides the actual server and is required to boot the graphical desktop, and it was part of the upgrade.

That said, I've been running the new Xorg for about a week now and it's been stable, no unexpected issues. I have integrated Intel graphics though so the experience might be different for nVidia or AMD (ATI) users...
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby Brian49 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:57 pm

In theory removing xserver-xorg shouldn't prevent the desktop from loading, but it does so on my system.
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby GeneC on Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:35 pm

Things still going smoothly in SID

Full DU, I have nothing pinned.

vlc and xorg still held back by debian.
Today gnome-utils, and network-manager added to debians' "hold packages".

EDIT:
"gnome-utils" is a dummy package and can be safely removed.

All seems well. :D

Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages have been kept back:
gnome-utils network-manager vlc vlc-nox vlc-plugin-notify vlc-plugin-pulse xserver-xorg-core xserver-xorg-input-evdev xserver-xorg-input-synaptics
xserver-xorg-input-wacom xserver-xorg-video-apm xserver-xorg-video-ark xserver-xorg-video-ati xserver-xorg-video-chips xserver-xorg-video-cirrus xserver-xorg-video-fbdev
xserver-xorg-video-i128 xserver-xorg-video-i740 xserver-xorg-video-intel xserver-xorg-video-mach64 xserver-xorg-video-mga xserver-xorg-video-neomagic
xserver-xorg-video-nouveau xserver-xorg-video-openchrome xserver-xorg-video-r128 xserver-xorg-video-radeon xserver-xorg-video-rendition xserver-xorg-video-s3
xserver-xorg-video-s3virge xserver-xorg-video-savage xserver-xorg-video-siliconmotion xserver-xorg-video-sis xserver-xorg-video-sisusb xserver-xorg-video-tdfx
xserver-xorg-video-trident xserver-xorg-video-tseng xserver-xorg-video-vesa xserver-xorg-video-vmware xserver-xorg-video-voodoo
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 39 not upgraded.
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AMD Phenom2x4 3.2 ghz, 12GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 460

1. LMDE(201303) - Gnome Shell 3.6/Cin. 1.8 - Testing
2. LMDE - XFCE 4.10 - SID

3. SolydXK/KDE 4.10-3/SID
(All 64bit multiarch, Nvidia 319.17 - Liquorix 3.8.xx)
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby Roken on Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:59 pm

I'm stuck with a system that is technically 6 weeks out of date because I daren't upgrade now. Tried to pin down why, but no joy yet. Something in recent (last 2 weeks) updates kills propriety fglrx, and my most recent backup is 9 August. Short of going through 532 Mb of updates one by one, I'm now stuck there. Really hoping this gets fixed soon :(
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby GeneC on Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:11 pm

Roken

The xorg upgrades are said to kill fglrx (and Nvidia).

http://aptosid.com/index.php?name=PNphp ... 5340884d37

But if I do a full DU, the xorg packages are held back.

Is that not the case for you?
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AMD Phenom2x4 3.2 ghz, 12GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 460

1. LMDE(201303) - Gnome Shell 3.6/Cin. 1.8 - Testing
2. LMDE - XFCE 4.10 - SID

3. SolydXK/KDE 4.10-3/SID
(All 64bit multiarch, Nvidia 319.17 - Liquorix 3.8.xx)
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby Roken on Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:48 pm

I've tried the updates every which way, mintupdate, synaptic "mark all updates", apt-get update && apt-get upgrade && apt-get dist-upgrade etc. Every time my fglrx is dead. I can get a partial system back (with OGL) but using software OGL only (no H/W acceleration).

I may try a selective update tomorrow, excluding xorg updates, and see where that gets me. The pain before was a sql DB I have created (since the last backup) having to be re-created every restore, but I have a fresh backup now including the DB, so I can play more.

I'll post back with results.
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby wayne128 on Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:12 pm

Just for experiment.

Downloaded new LMDE 201109.
Installed, work OK
Change sources list to SID
apt-get install apt-listbugs
apt-get update
apt-get dist-upgrade.

here is the list of bugs.
Code: Select all
Get:190 http://ftp.jp.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main libbs2b0 i386 3.1.0+dfsg-2 [13.2 kB]
Get:191 http://ftp.jp.debian.org/debian/ unstable/main os-prober i386 1.49 [25.4 kB]
Fetched 215 MB in 3min 43s (961 kB/s)                                         
Retrieving bug reports... Done
Parsing Found/Fixed information... Done
grave bugs of xserver-xorg-core (2:1.10.2.902-1 -> 2:1.11.0-1) <forwarded>
 #641413 - nvidia-graphics-drivers: Latest version 280.13.really.275.28-1 breaks X applications
   Merged with: 641344
grave bugs of libsoundtouch0 (1.5.0-5 -> 1.6.0-2) <forwarded>
 #635321 - memory corruption when using bpmdetect
critical bugs of initscripts (2.88dsf-13.10 -> 2.88dsf-13.11) <unfixed>
 #638341 - initscripts: Boot fails: Permission denied (Read-only file system)
critical bugs of gnome-settings-daemon (2.30.2-3 -> 2.30.2-4) <unfixed>
 #638817 - gnome-settings-daemon crashes on startup, errors on libnotify
serious bugs of gedit (2.30.4-2 -> 3.0.6-2) <unfixed>
 #635132 - Tracking bug for gedit plugin transition
serious bugs of libgail-common (2.24.4-3 -> 2.24.6-1) <unfixed>
 #636536 - multiarch enabled libgail breaks libgnome2
serious bugs of libmetacity-private0 (1:2.30.1-3 -> 1:2.34.1-1) <unfixed>
 #629310 - libmetacity-private0: button_layout for the window decorations does not work anymore
serious bugs of libcurl3-gnutls (7.21.6-3 -> 7.21.7-2) <unfixed>
 #641173 - libcurl3-gnutls (optional) depends on librtmp0 (extra)
serious bugs of dash (0.5.5.1-7.4 -> 0.5.7-1) <unfixed>
 #640334 - [kfreebsd] dash: faccessat implementation of "test -x" always returns true for user root
serious bugs of libnetfilter-conntrack3 (-> 0.9.1-1) <unfixed>
 #613590 - Bus error on Sparc architecures (conntrackd)
serious bugs of metacity (1:2.30.1-3 -> 1:2.34.1-1) <unfixed>
 #638141 - Missing dependency on gnome-icon-theme
serious bugs of libdvbpsi7 (0.2.0-1 -> 0.2.1-1) <unfixed>
 #640722 - [emsoft1@gmail.com: libdvbpsi7 version 0.2.1-1 is broken!]
serious bugs of mount (2.17.2-9.1 -> 2.19.1-5) <unfixed>
 #634107 - tries to umount /proc when told to umount /some/dir/proc without an /etc/mtab entry
serious bugs of javascript-common (7 -> 8) <unfixed>
 #474913 - javascript-common overrides /javascript globally in lighttpd
grave bugs of vino (2.28.2-3 -> 3.0.3-1) <tagged as pending a fix>
 #639088 - vino-server is not autostarted even though 'Remote Desktop' is enabled
Summary:
 libgail-common(1 bug), gedit(1 bug), initscripts(1 bug), libmetacity-private0(1 bug), libcurl3-gnutls(1 bug), dash(1 bug), libnetfilter-conntrack3(1 bug), metacity(1 bug), libdvbpsi7(1 bug), gnome-settings-daemon(1 bug), vino(1 bug), mount(1 bug), xserver-xorg-core(1 bug), javascript-common(1 bug), libsoundtouch0(1 bug)
Are you sure you want to install/upgrade the above packages? [Y/n/?/...] n
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby GeneC on Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:51 am

Wayne

As an experiment I did the same thing as you.
My present SID partition is all new, based on LMDE 2011-09 64bit.

I also have apt-listbugs.
I saw ALL of those warnings, and decided to go ahead and upgrade. :D
(My Old SID partition was just fine, fully updated).

Code: Select all
Retrieving bug reports... Done
Parsing Found/Fixed information... Done
serious bugs of gedit (2.30.4-2 -> 3.0.6-2) <unfixed>
 #635132 - Tracking bug for gedit plugin transition
serious bugs of libmetacity-private0 (1:2.30.1-3 -> 1:2.34.1-1) <unfixed>
 #629310 - libmetacity-private0: button_layout for the window decorations does not work anymore
serious bugs of javascript-common (7 -> 8) <unfixed>
 #474913 - javascript-common overrides /javascript globally in lighttpd
serious bugs of metacity (1:2.30.1-3 -> 1:2.34.1-1) <unfixed>
 #638141 - Missing dependency on gnome-icon-theme
serious bugs of libgail-common (2.24.4-3 -> 2.24.6-1) <unfixed>
 #636536 - multiarch enabled libgail breaks libgnome2
serious bugs of libdvbpsi7 (0.2.0-1 -> 0.2.1-1) <unfixed>
 #640722 - [emsoft1@gmail.com: libdvbpsi7 version 0.2.1-1 is broken!]

Summary:
   gedit(1 bug),
   libmetacity-private0(1 bug),
   javascript-common(1 bug),
   metacity(1 bug),
   libgail-common(1 bug),
   libdvbpsi7(1 bug)


Are you sure you want to install/upgrade the above packages? [Y/n/?/...] y


I did a full DU. Holding nothing back.
Everything works fine (I don't have anything wireless).

Kind of makes me not trust apt-listbugs as a good tool. :?:
GeneC

AMD Phenom2x4 3.2 ghz, 12GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 460

1. LMDE(201303) - Gnome Shell 3.6/Cin. 1.8 - Testing
2. LMDE - XFCE 4.10 - SID

3. SolydXK/KDE 4.10-3/SID
(All 64bit multiarch, Nvidia 319.17 - Liquorix 3.8.xx)
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby Roken on Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:05 am

Well, even excluding the xorg updates didn't help me. OpenGL on FGLRX breaks miserably. I have no idea where the problem is now, but guess I'm stuck with a system I can't update now :(
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby wayne128 on Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:07 pm

GeneC wrote:Wayne

As an experiment I did the same thing as you.
My present SID partition is all new, based on LMDE 2011-09 64bit.

I also have apt-listbugs.
I saw ALL of those warnings, and decided to go ahead and upgrade. :D
(My Old SID partition was just fine, fully updated).

Summary:
gedit(1 bug),
libmetacity-private0(1 bug),
javascript-common(1 bug),
metacity(1 bug),
libgail-common(1 bug),
libdvbpsi7(1 bug)


Are you sure you want to install/upgrade the above packages? [Y/n/?/...] y[/code]

I did a full DU. Holding nothing back.
Everything works fine (I don't have anything wireless).

Kind of makes me not trust apt-listbugs as a good tool. :?:


GeneC,
I have few mores bugs than yours? :evil:
But you are brave :mrgreen: :mrgreen: and playful :lol: :lol:

I still think have to respect bug reports, although some time our hardware might not be attacked by certain bug. At time we can live with those bugs ( such as gedit, had been around for very long and no problem using gedit).

Anyway, out of curiosity, as this is totally new experiment, I just want to see how lucky I could be with those bugs,, and with playful mind ( probably affected by reading your post :lol: :lol: :lol: )
I went ahead to DU
haha :lol: :lol: SID took away the installation :lol: :lol: :lol:
reboot to find it totally broke, while it can boot up, the login screen looks totall wrong, graphic are totally wrong on everywhere, no menu, so this is my Second breakage on Sid ( first time was Aptosid while I was learning).
Got to respect SID :twisted:

By the way, Debian Sid Gnome, fully updated , on the same computer, just another partition, and it was running well.. :mrgreen: since started way back before your thread started :mrgreen:
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby GeneC on Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:10 am

Hey Wayne :)

GeneC,
I have few mores bugs than yours?
But you are brave and playful


Playful - yes!
Brave -No! :lol: :lol:
I would not do those updates if not for recent "Clonezilla" clones. :wink:

Your point about hardware compatibility is quite correct, I am thinking.
With so many differnt possible combinations of CPU's, Motheboards, Video Cards, Sound Cards, et. et.
Its a wonder there are not more problems..

Not quite like Macintosh. :roll:
ONE operating system, ONE (basic) hardware configuration (with some well tested options, of course).
For this you pay a LOT of money (way too much)!

No, thanks! Linux for me.!! :D

=================================

Todays DU

Nothing pinned.
VLC finally upgrades OK.
The xorg packages are still on hold.
Code: Select all
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages have been kept back:
  xserver-xorg-core xserver-xorg-input-evdev xserver-xorg-input-synaptics
  xserver-xorg-input-wacom xserver-xorg-video-apm xserver-xorg-video-ark
  xserver-xorg-video-ati xserver-xorg-video-chips xserver-xorg-video-cirrus
  xserver-xorg-video-fbdev xserver-xorg-video-i128 xserver-xorg-video-i740
  xserver-xorg-video-intel xserver-xorg-video-mach64 xserver-xorg-video-mga
  xserver-xorg-video-neomagic xserver-xorg-video-nouveau
  xserver-xorg-video-openchrome xserver-xorg-video-r128
  xserver-xorg-video-radeon xserver-xorg-video-rendition
  xserver-xorg-video-s3 xserver-xorg-video-s3virge
  xserver-xorg-video-savage xserver-xorg-video-siliconmotion
  xserver-xorg-video-sis xserver-xorg-video-sisusb xserver-xorg-video-tdfx
  xserver-xorg-video-trident xserver-xorg-video-tseng
  xserver-xorg-video-vesa xserver-xorg-video-vmware
  xserver-xorg-video-voodoo
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 33 not upgraded.
GeneC

AMD Phenom2x4 3.2 ghz, 12GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 460

1. LMDE(201303) - Gnome Shell 3.6/Cin. 1.8 - Testing
2. LMDE - XFCE 4.10 - SID

3. SolydXK/KDE 4.10-3/SID
(All 64bit multiarch, Nvidia 319.17 - Liquorix 3.8.xx)
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby craigevil on Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:33 pm

Fully upgraded no issues here.
# apt-get dist-upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.

My sources.list
$ inxi -r
Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free
deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian/ experimental main contrib non-free
deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ unstable main non-free
deb http://dl.google.com/linux/chrome/deb/ stable main
deb http://dl.google.com/linux/talkplugin/deb/ stable main
deb http://deb.opera.com/opera-beta/ stable non-free
deb http://mozilla.debian.net/ experimental iceweasel-aurora
Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/google-musicmanager.list
deb http://dl.google.com/linux/musicmanager/deb/ stable main

My system IBM Thinkpad R40
Code: Select all
$ inxi -F                                                                                                     
System:    Host: debian Kernel: 3.0.0-1-486 i686 (32 bit) Desktop KDE 4.6.5 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux wheezy/sid
Machine:   Mobo: IBM model: 27223YU Bios: IBM version: 1PET41WW (1.09 ) date: 03/03/2003                                     
CPU:       Single core Intel Pentium M (-UP-) cache: 1024 KB flags: (sse sse2) clocked at 1200.00 MHz                       
Graphics:  Card: ATI Radeon Mobility M7 LW [Radeon Mobility 7500] X.Org: 1.11.0 driver: radeon Resolution: 1024x768@60.0hz   
           GLX Renderer: Mesa DRI R100 (RV200 4C57) AGP 4x x86/MMX/SSE2 TCL GLX Version: 1.3 Mesa 7.11                       
Audio:     Card: Intel 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) AC'97 Audio Controller driver: Intel ICH Sound: ALSA ver: 1.0.24
Network:   Card-1: Intel 82801DB PRO/100 VE (MOB) Ethernet Controller driver: e100                                           
           IF: eth0 state: down speed: 10 Mbps duplex: half mac: filtered                                         
           Card-2: Intel PRO/Wireless LAN 2100 3B Mini PCI Adapter driver: ipw2100                                           
           IF: eth1 state: up mac: filtered                                                                         
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 17.2GB (80.0% used) 1: /dev/sda IC25N020ATCS04 17.2GB                                             
Partition: ID: / size: 16G used: 13G (90%) fs: ext3 ID: /boot size: 228M used: 36M (17%) fs: ext2                           
           ID: swap-1 size: 0.51GB used: 0.00GB (1%) fs: swap                                                               
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 45.0C mobo: 44.0C                                                                       
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: 0                                                                                       
Info:      Processes: 129 Uptime: 2 days Memory: 507.4/2025.8MB Client: Shell inxi: 1.7.23   
Debian Sid KDE4.8.4 Kernel 3.4 Thinkpad R40 CPU Pentium M 1.3MHz RAM 2GB ATI Mobility 7500
Debian - "If you can't apt-get something, it isn't useful or doesn't exist"
Giant Debian sources.list | Debian upgrade script smxi | sysinfo script inxi
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby GeneC on Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:42 am

Wed. Sept.21st

Full DU
Nothing pinned

All OK

The (33) xorg packages still being held back by Debian

Code: Select all
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
The following packages have been kept back:
  xserver-xorg-core xserver-xorg-input-evdev xserver-xorg-input-synaptics xserver-xorg-input-wacom xserver-xorg-video-apm xserver-xorg-video-ark xserver-xorg-video-ati
  xserver-xorg-video-chips xserver-xorg-video-cirrus xserver-xorg-video-fbdev xserver-xorg-video-i128 xserver-xorg-video-i740 xserver-xorg-video-intel
  xserver-xorg-video-mach64 xserver-xorg-video-mga xserver-xorg-video-neomagic xserver-xorg-video-nouveau xserver-xorg-video-openchrome xserver-xorg-video-r128
  xserver-xorg-video-radeon xserver-xorg-video-rendition xserver-xorg-video-s3 xserver-xorg-video-s3virge xserver-xorg-video-savage xserver-xorg-video-siliconmotion
  xserver-xorg-video-sis xserver-xorg-video-sisusb xserver-xorg-video-tdfx xserver-xorg-video-trident xserver-xorg-video-tseng xserver-xorg-video-vesa
  xserver-xorg-video-vmware xserver-xorg-video-voodoo
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 33 not upgraded.
GeneC

AMD Phenom2x4 3.2 ghz, 12GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 460

1. LMDE(201303) - Gnome Shell 3.6/Cin. 1.8 - Testing
2. LMDE - XFCE 4.10 - SID

3. SolydXK/KDE 4.10-3/SID
(All 64bit multiarch, Nvidia 319.17 - Liquorix 3.8.xx)
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby wayne128 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:11 am

My Debian Sid-gnome is fully updated with xorg, vlc, virtualbox, everything.. :mrgreen:
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby GeneC on Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:24 am

Wayne :mrgreen:

Do you use the Nvidia drivers?

If I try to force an install of xorg, it will remove Nvidia?
GeneC

AMD Phenom2x4 3.2 ghz, 12GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 460

1. LMDE(201303) - Gnome Shell 3.6/Cin. 1.8 - Testing
2. LMDE - XFCE 4.10 - SID

3. SolydXK/KDE 4.10-3/SID
(All 64bit multiarch, Nvidia 319.17 - Liquorix 3.8.xx)
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GeneC
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby wayne128 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:27 am

GeneC wrote:Wayne :mrgreen:

Do you use the Nvidia drivers?

If I try to force an install of xorg, it will remove Nvidia?



Not for this desktop, it is with ATI

Better not play with xorg.. haha, but then you have clone. just 10-20 minutes away :lol:

Edit: by the way,
LMDE-xfce update has the same xorg held up, unlike straigth Debian ( nothing is held up)
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby GeneC on Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:29 am

Not much time to play today.. :D

I am going to wait on xorg. :wink:

Thanks
GeneC

AMD Phenom2x4 3.2 ghz, 12GB DDR3, Nvidia GTX 460

1. LMDE(201303) - Gnome Shell 3.6/Cin. 1.8 - Testing
2. LMDE - XFCE 4.10 - SID

3. SolydXK/KDE 4.10-3/SID
(All 64bit multiarch, Nvidia 319.17 - Liquorix 3.8.xx)
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GeneC
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby DeepDayze on Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:59 pm

OK, so to uograde LMDE to Sid just comment out the LMDE repos then point the debian ones to Sid?
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Re: LMDE (Tracking SID, or other non-standard) BREAKAGES!

Postby wayne128 on Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:59 am

DeepDayze wrote:OK, so to uograde LMDE to Sid just comment out the LMDE repos then point the debian ones to Sid?


Yes.
Read more details in the post:
viewtopic.php?f=199&t=79188&p=460756&hilit=craigevil#p460756
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