windows user, could they become linux users ?

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windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby matali on Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:02 am

Hi all,
First of all, a warning for sensible linux fans ( i like linux a lot but i'm no fan and can see good things in other OSes) : I will say that windows has good points ! And i think we shoud learn from it.
I like mint because it's the most eyecandy and easiest to use linux distro for me and a lot of people. BUT
read some threads with normal users speaking : viewtopic.php?f=47&t=31954&start=40
A lot of people don't care about btrfs, gnome3 and so. And they don't want to use the command line. They come from windows or OSX wher u can have a stalbe system (at least, xp SP2 wihtout any updates is and run all latest cutting edge programs without compromising it's own stability)
So our request and we are a lot believe me, some of wich left the linux community, some never look anymore until a big wave, some looks sometime hopping things go better someday.
So our request : is it possible to have a stable system (like RHEL 6.2) and applications that are as easy to install as on windows : DL one file directly from their programmer's official site, execute it's installer, run it from the desktop icon ?
The moment solutions and why they are not as good as windows's one :
- Just get a stable linux distro like RHEL or an old mint or debian ... and add a repo/ppa with latest buid for programs of your choice
-> problems : security : you have to trust the ppa/repo maintener, ok if it's the team wich makes the program (like official ppa for mypaint), but often that team just release sources (like gimp) and someone else nobody knoes and nobody check release the package. It's ok for me on windows because their are really goods free virus scanner like Kaspersky and i install and run all in user mode. packages/ppa's can modify your system because you grant them the rights to do so by entering your root/admin password.
Stability : it may modify some librairies that other important funtions use and then break your system.
compatibility : packager have to make not only one package like an exe on windows, they have to make package for all possible distros, or get ome people out. Not everybody likes the same distro as you, ppa's are nice, but what about people from rpm world, people with source realeases ?
- Get a rolling release like fedora's rawhide or debian testing... :
-> problem : No stability, impossible to work with it because you may lost all your work if your systems/filesystem breaks.
- Get a distro like mint, fedora... :
-> problem : from experience, i've seen that it's not really stable, it's a compromise and it's meant to be so. But you get the bad from both previous worlds : unsure that you will not loose everything that you didn't backuped ( and as in previous thread, is even your backup okay because of that stability issue ? ) and you don't have the last release of your programms. If you use ppa's/repos, you get the same problem as mentionned above.

Most people don't use linux for linux, for them linux is just an OS to work or play or whatever. So their point are those final programms on wich nothing else relies and where stability is not a problem, u just save regulary and restart in 10 sec. Most programms like libroffice, FF, blender, chromium and so restore their previous state anyway and now pretty good. But you can't take the risk of having an unstable filesystem or copy functions or a desktop manager that hangs every day or behave strange, stop his jobs (like file copy...) without notice, take your apps shortcut making them unavailable, etc...

Having one version of a library is clean, nice, i know why distro makers and programmers like that. But having 3 or 4, even 10 programms we really use as users (Internet browser, 2 or 3 creation tools, chat client, some games) use their own local version of those librairies would be possible. and as far as i know, it make them only use user's rights not root's rights, the 50 MB those librairies needs, nobody cares that much on today's Harddrives.

So : to be clear : make a folder in home dir for programmes and one for librairies,
make a standard/cross UNIX call for librairies to the OS that returns the path to it ( gimp 2.7.x call for GTK x.x.x, the systems returns the path to that librairy version, inkscape 0.48.x needs GTK x.y.y, same call, another path)
OR make every programmes comes with all needed librairies, dependencies and so in it's own directory (really, with 10 such programmes 50 MB pro librairies, you get maximal 500 MB wasted space because of duplication, most of the time less because those 10 progs don't use the same librairies, so it's not duplicated)
-> Stability and cutting edge functions : both progs works, updating one doesn't brake the other or the system
-> you can run a 8 year old OS you like and you know is stable for what is important to you.
-> if only one person make such an installer, all the UNIX community benefit from it, we don't need as mint user to look for a fedora packager or the other way round.
-> no need of command line install of repo's, good for normal users
-> because it only does user space things (given ur system rights managment is secure) the new program you run can't compromise the whole system.
I hope you get to here :D it's a lot.
Maybe you don't want those users that already use FF, chromium, gimp, libreoffice, blender but stick on windows, but at least tell them so that they don't waste their time. We can afford to give 90€ to MS every 3 years.
Sorry for my bad english
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Re: windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby dagon on Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:16 am

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Re: windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby The-Wizard on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:12 am

:roll: you lost me half way through... i have M9-64 been using it for over a year, never had a breakdown, bug,or any other nasty, it has worked every day for up to 15 hrs a day and never let me down... so dose that mean im doing something right or wrong :?:
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Re: windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby matali on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:40 am

Nothing wrong, i find it great and it's what i want (i mean not specailly v9), be able to run the distro i want, with the version i want, but with the latest programmes as easy as on windows. I use windows and linux to work, not to become a system administrator. And yes, i need the latest blender and inkscape to work with my colleagues. If i was only needing an internet browser and an office suite, i would even use Fedora 1 on a Pentium2. But i need more from it than that.
Did you try to get gimp 2.7.5 running or inkscape-trunk or something else on the latest version with just some clicks ?
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Re: windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby ej64 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:27 pm

I'm running wheezy since over a year now and there's nothing "testing" in it to me. It's rock solid, I had not one instability, crash or whatsoever. Before the next freeze (in June) I'll change my repos to sid and I expect to have nothing "unstable" in it (already running it without issues within a vbox for months).

I have GIMP 2.6.11 (sid: 2.6.12) and the GIMP site itself states "Please note that the whole 2.7.x series of versions is considered unstable and is not recommended for use in production even though it might just work for you." I have Blender 2.6.1 (of Dec 2011) and I don't think it really matters to have the latest version the day it's available.

To me your demand to have an old and stable system but the latest and by definition unstable sw versions is quite contradictory and somewhat ridiculous seeing all the big video and animation studios running Linux just fine.
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Re: windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby matali on Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:47 pm

I'm not sure to understand what you mean ej64. Linux means not a lot. It can be RHEL or wheezy. And about stability, both versions are really different. Those studios have internal developers who have time to modify and recompile their apps for custom purposes. The graphic artist don't bother about it and just use what the devs made for them. And i'm pretty sure, their machine doesn't update grub or the linux kernel, or whatever may make them loss hours of work if broken.
It's not contradictory to get old kernel and last gimp. when the kernel crash ur filesystem, you loose all your datas, must reinstall your OS etc... and making a backup of your /home and / partitions every minute in case of a crash is way too long and not efficient.
When gimp crashes, I loose at worst 1 minute of work, cause i save regulary and it takes 1 sec to do so. 10sec more to restart gimp.
For me linux is an OS and so should be most destribution, a programm that allows you to use your computer, providing standard interfaces and basic tools. And make it independant of what you run uppon it. So if you want to install latest nighlty of whatever, as user, that os should allow you, in a simple way, to install it with it's dependencies in the folder you want without giving the chance to that programmes to replace your system librairies or granting it privilages.

More infos on the net to see it's possible and already done, just needs implementation :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_application#Portability_on_Linux_and_UNIX-like_systems
http://roscidus.com/desktop/FAQ
http://hacktolive.org/wiki/Super_OS
http://0install.net/

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-libraries.html
By the way, on that page we see that every librairy version should get a .so files to make use of concurrent versions at the same time possible. If already the approved standard could be used in a good way, those problems :
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=95638
shoudn't exist at all.
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Re: windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby ej64 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:54 am

matali wrote:I'm not sure to understand what you mean ej64.
I mean if you do it right there are no instabilities with a bleeding edge GNU/Linux installation. I'm running the latest kernel with ext4 fs and Debian testing repos and IT IS stable. No crashes, no fs corruption. NOT ONE. Download yourself a Debian testing iso and install it. It's lightweight, fast and stable.
It's not contradictory to get old kernel and last gimp. when the kernel crash ur filesystem, you loose all your datas, must reinstall your OS etc... and making a backup of your /home and / partitions every minute in case of a crash is way too long and not efficient.
Use ext4 with journaling and there's nothing to crash. If you're silly enough to use a beta-fs like btrfs (you mentioned it) it's you to blame not anything else. Regular backups are a must anyway (HD may fail).
So if you want to install latest nighlty of whatever, as user, that os should allow you, in a simple way, to install it with it's dependencies in the folder you want without giving the chance to that programmes to replace your system librairies or granting it privilages.
That's the windows way. I'm shure the overwhelming part of the Linux users are glad to use repositories and that it's central, safe and very easy to maintain. This is one of the strongest points of Linux. Why change it for the sake of some impatient people like you?
Having only one version of a lib ensures the small footprint of Linux systems. Perhaps the majority of users benefit from the lightweight RAM and HD usage. Just think of all the old machines and of people in emerging countries. This is another very strong point Linux makes.

If you want something that is like windows why do you want to make Linux like windows (loosing all it's strong points) instead of just using windows?

BTW:
those problems : viewtopic.php?f=47&t=95638 shoudn't exist at all.

Debian Wheezy is at libgtk2.0-0 (2.24.9-2) where you could install gimp 2.7.5
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Re: windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby matali on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:41 pm

Did u read that link ? http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-libraries.html
It has nothing to do with windows it's an old unix system convention. Because gimp or whatever done for Unix can run on BSD, OSX, MINT 12 and RHEL6 in theory. and all those OSes have different versions of the same librairies (GTK for gnome for example) but can run (in theory) the latest gimp wich uses latest GTK.
A question : What do you do with your many linux distrib ? Do you really do something that use your computer as a tool for something else ? Or is it computing for computing ? Be happy to have a distro with btrfs, grub2 and gnome3 in a virtual machine even if you don't use any of their new functions ? Then ok, i've nothing against pure geeks, but some geeks are producing things for non-geeks and geeks. You go see films sometime ? Would you be proud to hear those films where made with linux and in a small independant industry ? Then allow those workers get the best tools from the free world on the distro they want. Cause they don't care about gnome3 and btrfs and all your geek things that make their work unsure and slower. It's good geeks improve it, ext4 was unstable some time ago too. And we will all be happy to have btrfs some day when it's stable, as well as gnome 3. But not now.
I don't want to make linux like windows. If you look in your distrib a bit more, you will see you may (depending on what you installed) actually have already some librairies in different versions (with different .so files)
So it's meant for portability : instead of having to use 20 packagers for 20 distros, we could have the gimp team make one package and have it for even Supergeek wich uses a distro only 10 people on earth are using.
Why should everybody who wants/need latest version of something, should get the most popular distro ? Only because it's the one that has the package ? Why make all people who loves fedora or puppy cry because ubuntu has all those package and not the others ? I mean, if they were no other possibility, because of no standard or too much work... but no, it's just because people have that mint/ubuntu (or whatever it was or will be) wave (and i can understand i actually use it) and are used to a not cross-compatible package format.

But i have all thos ppa enabled. I have all those latest versions. So why do i bother ? If i started that thread, it's because with the latest Mint, i just had a bug wich made me got incomplete backups on my NTFS partitions, without any notification of an error. I don't know at the moment where it comes from. And loosing month of work is way more embarrassing than having gimp crash.

So I would like those latest program on a good old, long-support release without breaking it. And i'm not the only one. Many people in the Debian team are working on allowing to get some package from debian testing work with the stable branch. 0install, that old linux standard etc... So many people not from the windows world who want stability for the core but more than browsing and doing mediaplayer/office things on their computer.

About the emerging countries or old computers, back then (because i have had those old computers) gimp and blender where far away from commercial product, and i just used linux to surf the net, backup my partions, share the internet connection, hear musique, play a bit with images ... for those needs, a computer even with a rhel with very outdated packages is enough. or a puppy linux. I don't know how you use your Linux, but new functions in browsers, mediaplayers, office suites are useless anyway for the most users. They don't need to be "cutting edge". I know so much people upgrading their distro every 6 month who don't know even why. When you see them using libreoffice, they don't even use 1% of what it can do, but are glad to upgrade it. Rotating brushes, you know what it is ? You know what it can do ? How much time you save with it ? Gimp can crash every 5 min i would spare time anyway.
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Re: windows user, could they become linux users ?

Postby xenopeek on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:00 pm

Name calling, and topic going nowhere.

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