what to Install MintDebian(MATE/Cinnamon or Xfce) OR Lisa

[protocoder]

Dear Experts,

I am complete newbie. I use computer for the following.
1. Browsing ( look for lightweight browser with no malicious content creeping in)
2. Programming stuff (c, c++, python stuff), 3. Youtube 4. Download and read documents, acrobats, ps files etc. 5. Photoshop, audio, video etc.6. Able to play all media. 6. Chat, web cam , skype, yahoo and msn.
Note: I faced issues trying to get my internet up and running in Ubuntu 9.10 .. Any good experience here ?
My system config: Intel Pentium M, Processor: 1.73 GHz, 1.24 GB RAM. 40GB capacity with 20 db each for windows and now want Linux in other partition.

I did search here and every where about what's the differences between Linux Lisa and Linux Debian ( MATE/Cinnamon or Xfce) but I am bombarded with Jargons with no references. I like reading and going deeper but I will be lost if I keep so many tabs of google for each term I am hit with. I want to seriously want to learn the differences please can some one give me the links and references please.

Regards

[wayne128]

Sometime it is good to take a bird eye view so that you see top down overall picture.

Here is what I think you can read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution

Within these, just focus on:
Debian
Ubuntu
Mint
and LMDE, or Linux Mint Debian Edition.


Look at the attached picture, showing the 'mother distribution' of a few ( Debian, Slackware, RedHat...), and Debian is one of these few .
As time go by, many other distribution ( you read many name in the picture) would choose to based on one of the 'mothers'.

See when ubuntu come into the picture, it is based on Debian.

See when Mint comes into the picture, it is based on Ubuntu.

Ok, Lisa is Mint and is based on ubuntu, which is based on Debian.

Now see Linux Mint Debian Edition, you see when it appears in time scare, and it is based on Debian ..

So that is the main thing, the base!.

I think that is a good starting point to read and search...

[wayne128]

and...
if you are new to Linux, it is better to start from ubuntu based Mint,
that is Mint 9,10,11 (katya),12 (Lisa)

below is just a copy from linuxmint.com website and as a glance it tells you which version is based on which 'mother'

http://www.linuxmint.com/oldreleases.php

Linux Mint Releases
Version Codename Package base Status
12 Lisa Ubuntu Oneiric Supported until April 2013.
11 Katya Ubuntu Natty Supported until October 2012.
10 Julia Ubuntu Maverick Supported until April 2012.
9 Isadora Lucid Lynx Long term support release (LTS), supported until April 2013.
8 Helena Ubuntu Karmic Obsolete since April 2011.
7 Gloria Ubuntu Jaunty Obsolete since October 2010.
6 Felicia Ubuntu Intrepid Obsolete since April 2010.
5 Elyssa Ubuntu Hardy Obsolete since April 2011.
Debian Debian Testing Rolling
4.0 Daryna Ubuntu Gutsy Obsolete since April 2009.
3.1 Celena Ubuntu Feisty Obsolete since October 2008.
3.0 Cassandra Ubuntu Feisty Obsolete since October 2008.
2.2 Bianca Ubuntu Edgy Obsolete since April 2008.
2.1 Bea Ubuntu Edgy Obsolete since April 2008.
2.0 Barbara Ubuntu Edgy Obsolete since April 2008.
1.0 beta Ada Kubuntu Dapper Obsolete. Unstable.


finally, if you are new to Linux, then it is easier for you to handle ubuntu based such as Mint 12 (Lisa), Mint 11 (Katya).

Debian based is 'semi-rolling' which means once you install and run, you can update and upgrade ( thus rolling) using its special method called Update Pack.
By design, it means you need not to reinstall , just update and upgrade.
However, it takes a lot more skill to handle Debian based distros, because there are too many update/upgrade and often they can break the installation, and require some good skill to troubleshoot and repair them. Thus LMDE is not suitable for beginner.

[protocoder]

Thank you wayne128,

With Ubuntu I always had broken installs and I struggled to get my wireless working. Would life be bit easier with Linux Lisa.
Ubuntu guys obviously seems to prefer 10.4 or some with Unity thing. So please can you advice me on how Linux Lisa would be compared to Ubuntu latest versions.
I read that Linux Debian's Xfce has thin and light weight environment which is best in resource consumption, considering my system configuration. Can I get these in Lisa. How often do I have to upgrade and Is that upgrade has any support in the forum, then probably I would try my hand with Linux Debian please let me know the your recommendation.
Regards

[wayne128]

I read that Linux Debian's Xfce has thin and light weight environment which is best in resource consumption, considering my system configuration.

hmm, not really, LMDX is not too efficient in term of light weight.
Because it had lots of gnome apps inside.

If you want to be light,
Debian-xfce, crunchbang-xfce, Saline-xfce will be much lighter.

Can I get these in Lisa.

Well, Lisa is Gnome 3... it is heavy as well as requires good graphic with 3d acceleration. Not sure of your graphic.

How often do I have to upgrade and Is that upgrade has any support in the forum, then probably I would try my hand with Linux Debian

Go read a few threads that are related to LMDE. such as

tracking testing, the normal method
viewtopic.php?f=198&t=67502

tracking stable, for stability, older programs and version
viewtopic.php?f=200&t=99741

tracking Sid, unstable, for people who are brave and don't mind hanging on the cliff. this is the true rolling Debian ..
viewtopic.php?f=198&t=70230

My system config: Intel Pentium M, Processor: 1.73 GHz,
1.24 GB RAM. 40GB

Pentium 1.73 is not too fast... so these are better for you,
Mint-lxde
Debian/crunchbang/Saline-xfce
some other light, fast, stable xfce such as salix, vector ( both are slackware based)
xubuntu which is ubuntu-xfce

of course , as you progress, you can also start from says: LMDE-xfce, remove some stuff to make it lighter and it will run faster... I do that all the time

[protocoder]

Thank a lot wayne128,

My graphics card details are:
Card name: Mobile Intel(R) 915GM/GMS,910GML Express Chipset Family
Display Memory: 128.0 MB
Current Mode: 1024 x 768 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200

Now you opened a different perspective to me, but you are right I must use what's best for my system not what is latest and trendy. Now read a few reviews from net and looks like your suggestion of crunchbang is having lot of positive comments.
In reviews I read, Salix seems to have impressed people who have been using zenwalk and vector linux.

Sir my question. Say if I choose crunchbang or Salix latest versions. What do I miss out from the latest linux mint debian or lisa or ubuntu latest ones.

These DTE are lighter because some functionalities are removed. Another question is how about drivers compatibility, I am assuming as a beginner that features, driver compatibility etc are OS specific and not DTE.

Can I easily replace the existing ubuntu partition with Salix or Crunchbang .. Thanks a lot really. Great help indeed.

[zerozero]

[moved here by moderator- seems more appropriated since we are no longer talking about Mint]

[wayne128]

Say if I choose crunchbang or Salix latest versions. What do I miss out from the latest linux mint debian or lisa or ubuntu latest ones.

It is hard to compare Mint with Salix and crunchbang, because their philosophy is different.
Mint tends to have lots of extra stuff built in so that user can run out of the box. For example if you start with LMDE-xfce you have two file managers, 3-4 media players.

For salix, they follow a design philosophy that is 'one program for one function'.
so they have only ONE media player. One file manager etc. That is the reason they are very light and very fast, also very little trouble.
Also salix does not distribute with media codecs so you must install media codecs ( which is very simple, click click you get it).
crunchbang is very light, and close to Debian, newer version had only Open Box windows manager and you need to install xfce ( again it is very simple to do so).

One point to note is, it is quite easy for you to add whatever player or program you need or like as long as they are in their repository.

These DTE are lighter because some functionalities are removed. Another question is how about drivers compatibility, I am assuming as a beginner that features, driver compatibility etc are OS specific and not DTE.

For this, it is better you start with DE that has Live CD, Salix has both installed version and Live version, go with Live version to see that your hardware can work first.
Many drives are built into the kernel, so kernel version plays a large part.
If you choose an old version of kernel that does not support certain hardware, then of course you cannot get it run out of the box.

Can I easily replace the existing ubuntu partition with Salix or Crunchbang ..

Replacing existing partition OS by another is very easy, just install new OS onto the same partition of the old OS.
But there is one 'danger', what happen when your do not like the new OS and want to go back to old OS? so a better method is to clone the old OS onto external USB drive, if you ended up unhappy with new OS, you simple plug in the USB drive, reinstall old OS back to your computer.

[protocoder]

Hi wayne128,

Thank you very much. I just burned the salix all three variants. I will try this and let you know.
Thank you very much for being kind to me and understanding that I am just a beginner. I will also burn crunchbang and slackware 13.37 version to feel the experience of raw linux and know the file architecture, configuration of files and other commands so that I can relish the linux distributions. I always start ambitious and fall out. Hopefully this time I really wish I break the inertia and really learn when I have so much support. Thanks a ton. Cheers

[wayne128]

as you are experiencing Salix,

first thing to do is read their documentation, especially this start up guide

http://www.salixos.org/wiki/index.php/S ... rtup_Guide

then follow step by step to get it run on Live ( for Live CD) or install onto hard disk.
Pay attention NOT TO erase your windows OS!!! unless you already back up everything and do not mind wipe your hard disk.

[protocoder]

Hmm no joy wayne128.
I tried to install multiple times with lilo, without Salix lxde to start with but when I reboot, I am struck at grub rescue.

I managed get my grub and windows working by installing back the ubuntu 9.10. I tried again with same grub rescue prompt.
There is so difference between Ubuntu9.10 install and Salix Lxde. Ubuntu prompts how I install, I choose manual and point to the mount I have created for linux and choose the file system and instruct to format .. and all set .. every thing fine.

Salix too asks these but in a different format but Salix does not seem to create the root file or other necessary information needed for grub to work.

I am not sure what to do.. I will try Slackware when the server is up, It looks like it is down now. I raised this issue with Salix forums and waiting for reply.

As of now I am back on 9.10 ubuntu without net and working windows.
Cheers

[wayne128]

I managed get my grub and windows working by installing back the ubuntu 9.10. I tried again with same grub rescue prompt.

Oh, you have windows OS and ubuntu..
Do you want to keep windows OS, and ubuntu OS and add Salix?
I can help you with instructions.

There is so difference between Ubuntu9.10 install and Salix Lxde.
Ubuntu prompts how I install, I choose manual and point to the mount I have created for linux and choose the file system and instruct to format .. and all set .. every thing fine.

That is normal,
Salix installer uses Lilo as default boot loader
ubuntu installer uses grub2 as default boot loader
vector installer allows user to choose lilo or grub
pclos installer have lilo and grub legacy.

so it is good if you can handle a few type of boot loader: lilo, grub legacy and grub2.
just some learning,, and using will be quite the same, afterall, all you want is it get booted up.

you can install salix ( as you already did) and add the boot loader Lilo onto it so that is can boot ( I believe you miss this step, or did not do it correctly when you select from menu).

you can also let grub detect salix, and make some changes to boot it. It sounded like grub2 either did not manage to create proper grub stanza for salix partition, or you might not have run a command ( after salix installation) this command on ubuntu is

sudo update-grub

or you might be install salix into ubuntu partition ?? I do not know.

Salix too asks these but in a different format but Salix does not seem to create the root file or other necessary information needed for grub to work.

Well, if you watch it install, if it is copying files to your root directory, then I think it is about right.
What I guess was missing is the steps to install lilo the boot loader. either to MBR or to root partition.. Did you remember doing that step?

I am not sure what to do.. I will try Slackware when the server is up, It looks like it is down now. I raised this issue with Salix forums and waiting for reply.

No do not try Slackware if you cannot get thru Salix, Salix is easier to handle than Slackware.

As of now I am back on 9.10 ubuntu without net and working windows.

without net? what does that means?

again, if you wish I can walk you thru how to install Salix while maintaining your Windows OS or winOS and ubuntu os ( triple boot) as long as you have hard disk space.

meanwhile, may be you can boot into ubuntu live CD, run a few command and post their output on terminal:

sudo fdisk -l
sudo parted -l print
sudo os-prober

if possible, run gparted and take a snapshot of hard disk partition image, then post here..

[protocoder]

Hi wayne128,

Thank you so much. Much appreciated.
I have burned the live CD of Salix Lxde and tried with the confidence that my system will be back in running with live ubuntu usb. The live cd worked I have opted for full version.

This time I tried to install from the live cd and there has been lot of questions asked about lilo install and that gave me the confidence. The live cd install is certainly different to only install cd. So lilo is working. I could able to successfully switch between windows and Silax.

A clarification. My system is pretty old one and has only 40gb hard drive and only two partitions windows and linux.
What I was doing is asking to installer to mount on the sda5, the mount where ubuntu was installed. Since for some reason as you rightly discovered Lilo failed from only install drive, I had those issues. Now all clear.

A bit of history: I am here because I was deleting some unwanted apps from synaptic manager in Ubuntu which hanged and destroyed my grub. when I reloaded, I was never able to get the wireless working. ndswrapper fails to recognize the driver of the windows and keeps telling me that hardware is not found.
So my questions in the forum prompted experts to upgrade and then this search started.

Now I am in same situation. Ndwrapper fails to recognise the windows INF file and I followed the Ndswrapper guidelines of blacklisting files .. my wireless still does not work. The driver I am looking for is BCM4311 chipset id 14e4:4319 (rev 2)
I am not sure how to fix this issue.

2. Some observations: Though I am new user, I find that boot up of Salix is bit more than Ubuntu9.10. The shut down too is bit slower. Is that right observations.

3. The compulsory big password is essential for security but it is annoying when I am the sole user. Is there a way I can manage the password in such a way that it does not prompt me during boot up.

Thanks a lot. Cheers

[wayne128]

Not sure if you are trying to install BCM4311 in Salix or ubuntu.

Anyway go check this for Salix.

http://www.salixos.org/wiki/index.php/H ... less_cards

Yes, Salix would boot slower and shutdown slower too.
Usually Debian based would boot and shutdown very fast.

I remember Salix can be set to autologin , but cannot recall how..
May be you can try this ( I searched it from salix forum), just one line command:
http://www.salixos.org/forum/viewtopic. ... gin#p16278

[protocoder]

Thank you wayne128.

I have only 2 partitions 1. windows and 2. Earlier Ubuntu replaced with Salix.

I have asked a similar help in Salix forum. If you can also help me that would be great.

1. How to download b43-fwcutter package from the Salix repository when I do not have access to Internet.
2. Once downloaded from another system, How to install/build in the Slaix. Note: I could not connect to internet even with live cd.
3. I have windows system please can you give me the links to Solution A given in
http://www.salixos.org/wiki/index.php/H ... ed_devices
4. In that b43 linux driver: http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drive ... ed_devices reference link the Chipset details of my computer [14e4:4319] corresponds to BCM4318 and I have BCM4311 which is causing me lots of confusion. Sorry for being such a idiot but I still could not figure out from Broadcom download site or linux wireless download link the firmware for BCM4311 which carries chipset ID 14e4:4319. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank a ton.

I found this http://www.broadcom.com/support/802.11/linux_sta.php where I can download and build the driver. Please someone help me how build these files or suggest if this is not the approach. As I do not have b43-cutter packages installed or internet access to that computer with Salix installed (wired too does not seem to work). I will really appreciate your help.

Thanks a lot

[wayne128]

I read from Salix forum and am glad to know you were assisted by a few old timer there.

So I would not talk much on Salix here.

After reading your issue:
broadcom bcm43xx
and, no internet on wired LAN.

I have a suggestion, look for one distros that had broadcom fwcutter already preloaded.

read this

http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/topic ... impressed/

Code: Select all

2011-03-22 19:02:07

    #! Member
    Offline

    Registered: 2011-03-16
    Posts: 84

I just installed #! Openbox this last weekend and I must say I am very impressed.  I wanted to take the time to mention a few things that I was most impressed with.
1.) I have installed many linux distros.  Crunch Bang was the first one that recognized my Broadcom 4318 wireless card in my laptop with absolutely NO configuring whats so ever.  No downloading drivers and no extractions with b43-fwcutter.

2.) I liked the start up script on first boot that walks you through the updates giving you the opportunity to except or not except updates as well as proprietary software such as cups and java.

3.) I have become a big fan of Conky.  Crunch Bang makes configuring your Conky very easy.

4.) I understand that in the grand scheme of things, Crunch Bang is a relatively new distro and the developers are to be commended in getting things right early on.

I realize I do have a lot to learn with this distro.  I have gotten used to using pacman, synaptics, RPM so just need to know what package manager Crunch Bang uses and how to use it.  Look forward to seeing what else this OS has to offer.

GREAT JOB #! TEAM!!!!

All the best,

Ian


You might have luck in crunchbang xfce-version ( older version, year 2011).
and hopefully you get wireless working out of the box.

good luck

[protocoder]

Hi wayne128

Thank you very much. Yes I will take your advice and try crunchbang, I am exhausted of all ideas.

I tried as recommended here http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/n ... x.php/List
found a exact match chipset ID 14e4:4319 here . http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/n ... eless_1470, when that did not work I followed the note below and also tried to map Ndiswrapper to http://ftp.us.dell.com/network/R115321.EXE. Still no luck. Ndiswrapper says Unable to find hardware.

I think I spent a 2 days the first time I installed Ubuntu for 6 hours .. but I spent several times over now on trying to get this working. The reason I got fedup with Ubuntu was there were too many broken installs, I try to delete a few and it gave me issues and when re-installed, I tried to install package of b43-cutter which asked me endless dependencies. .It was crazy.

A few things about Salix ..
screens -- too impressive
color and screensavers - Awesome, very pleasing to eyes.
It gets reset on it's own on idle.
USB data is unreliable.
Shutdown and Bootup .. late compared to Ubuntu.

But a question, why do you suggest me a older version of crunchbang, did they removed b43-fwcutter from latest versions.
You are awesome and thank you for being in touch. hats off.

Thanks and Regards

[sunewbie]

Hi,

Saline OS is using older version of XFCE 4.6. Current version is 4.8 and 4.10 is just released.

Saline Os is based on Debian Stable with official backports enabled by default. I am using it and I am liking it.

On the other hand,

Mint is Ubuntu based. Both Mint and Ubuntu are based on Debian but not compatible with it.

LMDE is 100% compatible with debian but not Ubuntu. Actually LMDE has cut down the middleman Ubuntu.

Regarding the system requirement, I would suggest you to go for XFCE destop. LMDE XFCE is a good choice. Even Xubuntu 12.04 works well. IT is stable. I have used it for limited time, but looks like it is stable. It is also an LTS release.

LTS releases focus more on stability then features. They are based on Debian Testing. Other version pull packages even from Debian Unstable.

LMDE is based on Debian testing, but Clem does testing on his end and then packs it in the form of Update packs.

If you install LMDE, you may not have to install newer version, but it may break, and fixed soon. Ubuntu and Mint LISA based on Ubuntu are freezed.

Kernel updates are off by default. So If Mint 12 is working for you, then stick to it, Newer kernel may / maynot handle your graphic card very well.

During recent Update pack (UP) 4 kernel was also updated. Each kernel handles driver in different ways.

Ubuntu also has kernel updates on. So best is first to try Mint 12 LISA and installa XFCE-desktop or xubuntu-desktop.

XFCE is less resource intensive and laptop temp is lower then Gnome 3 and KDE Desktop Environment.

If you like XFCE, try Voyager. It is Ubuntu + XFCe. It's awesome, but if you tweak too much, some report it breaks, but can be fixed.

In short, try

1. Mint 12 LISa and XFCE and see if it's working for you.
2. Xubuntu 12.04 LTS.
3. Install XFCE on Mint 12

or if you are going for Saline OS, it works very well.

Please note that, though Ubuntu and Debian and similar, they work differently. Like Terminal (CLI) in Ubuntu is configured for 'sudo', while In Saline os and in general any Debian based distro it is configured for 'su'

If you still want less resource intensive DE, try LXDE. It is a bit limited, but for general use like writing program and surfing net, it's fine.

Lubuntu is very good alternative. But is is not LTS. It will be supported only for 18 months unlike Xubuntu which will be supported for 3 years nad Ubuntu / Kubuntu / Mint 13 for 5 years.

I use a keyboard launcher 'synapse'. It is similar to Gnome-do and (executor - an app used for windows). With the use of synapse,life becomes easy.

You will need to enable / start synapse manually. Then edit preferences by right clicking on right side small circle. Then make synapse load on start-up and configure it's keyboard activation key to <shift> <Space> . Default is <ctrl> <space> . <ctrl> conflicts with gnome3 key bindings (shortcut key) to focus on desktop.

After that when you want to open any app e.g. firefox or opera. simply press <shift> <space> and type opera. Before you complete typing, opera will be started. Hit enter and the app launches

Hope this helps.

I have no exp for RPM based distros.

[wayne128]

But a question, why do you suggest me a older version of crunchbang, did they removed b43-fwcutter from latest versions.

Because the post I read from crunchbang forum said that this version ( March 2011 or earlier) had broadcom wireless firmware preloaded and it is xfce desktop.
Thus recommend you to try it.

New version is openbox only.
I do not have broadcom 43xx wireless, and did not test crunchbang new version, thus I do not know whether new version still has 43xx fwcutter preloaded..

You could read and search a bit more in crunchbang's forum, or join them and ask questions.. lots of helpful people there.

[sunewbie]

crunchbang is based on debian stable and the website says that you should be comfortable with CLi. Things may break. So for those who want a stable system, I would not suggest crunchbang.

XFCE edition is discontinued. So in case if something happens, then i do not know how much support will you get.