Poll: Desktop environments

[veggen]

I just hope you will be keeping a KDE edition after the death of Kubuntu!

You haven't heard the news?

[Paul_Vandenberg]

I just hope you will be keeping a KDE edition after the death of Kubuntu!

(begin rant) My goodness, why do people still think Kubuntu was dying because it wasn't going to have a paid developer? There are many people working on Kubuntu and only one was paid. He didn't even work on the 11.10 release, I think, because of time off due to injuries. Also, Lubuntu and Xubuntu have never had a paid developer. It is really annoying to see such misinformation being perpetuated! (end of rant)!

[Jesse654]

I'm glad others have noticed that this forum poll type is different than the previous blog poll type. Here's my take:

The 29% that Cinnamon has on the forum poll does *not* mean 29% of the people voting are using Cinnamon. Apparently the "total votes" number represents the total number of selected DE options across all persons participating in the poll. This is evident in the fact that multiple options are allowed to be chosen, yet the percentages add up to 100%. (This 100% can vary slightly due to rounding.) This poll roughly shows the percentage of installations of a DE, but only roughly, as one person could have multiple installations of the same DE.

This is in contrast to the blog poll where the percentages added up to well over 100%. At the time I recorded the numbers, it was 150%. Here the percentages were actually based on the total number of persons participating. So the 41% for Cinnamon means that 41% of people voting use Cinnamon. But with the poll alone, we cannot jump to the conclusion that Cinnamon is used more often than the other DEs, just used by more people. (It could be used infrequently by lots of people.)

But that's far from the whole story.

No poll is perfect: The blog poll had more non-Mint users (no doubt), the forum probably more Mint users. (Although, from the forum posts, it looks like many people registered on the forum to vote.) Did the blog poll have more Cinnamon users who are not Mint users? How many participants answered for others? (I see many posts/comments from people who install an OS for other people.) There are many such questions and issues.

The real questions are, How often is a DE used? How useful is a DE compared to another? Unfortunately, neither poll can answer these questions definitively. I doubt any poll could.

Consider this example:
Someone votes for MATE and Cinnamon. However, MATE is installed once and Cinnamon 5 times.
1) Perhaps all installs are used equally so Cinnamon is used 5 times as often as MATE.
2) Perhaps MATE is on a person's main machine and the other Cinnamon installs are used very infrequently. Here MATE is used a lot more than Cinnamon.
3) MATE is used Monday to Friday; each Cinnamon is used only once a week. Here they are used about equally.

So it seems that multiple sources of information need to be analyzed to get the best answers to the real questions. Below we compare the Forum Poll % v. Blog Poll %.

After that we see that the Progression of Forum Votes is flat for each DE: This poll had the same percentages for each DE whether there were 555 votes, 774 votes or 2027 votes.

We can infer (from this and many other polls/votes) that usually a small sample is representative of a much larger set. Depending on several factors, this is not always the case. But I think it's safe to say that the blog numbers (shown below, before poll corruption) are representative of what that poll was asking.


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EDIT: Fixed link to image. Thanks zerozero.

[bimsebasse]

I think everyone is aware of that, jesse. Polls are still useful even though they are not flawless. Clem probably wanted to gauge DE/Shell popularity among Mint users before deciding how Mint 13 will be put together, to that end a poll with this many votes is probably a relatively reliable indicator, no one is expecting complete reliability in a poll.

[iHateApple]

Right now I use Cinnamon on Mint 12 on my laptop, and I really love it. I have LMDE Xfce running on an old desktop, and it works great, too--no frills, but it's very light. I voted for both.

[Jesse654]

I think everyone is aware of that, jesse. Polls are still useful even though they are not flawless. Clem probably wanted to gauge DE/Shell popularity among Mint users before deciding how Mint 13 will be put together, to that end a poll with this many votes is probably a relatively reliable indicator, no one is expecting complete reliability in a poll.

A "relatively reliable indicator" of what? "Popularity"? In what way? In how many users use it? In how often it is used? In how useful that use is? The frequency of one DE's use as compared to another? Or one of a million other questions. This is my point.

And I think "I think everyone is aware of that" is vague and can be applied to almost nothing in life. How common is common sense?

And to be clear, if one understands the limitations of the forum poll, I believe it is useful when compared to the blog poll and other information sources.

[Andrew33]

Well...I was using LMDE when it started with gnome 2, then everyone decided to split or fork gnome 2, which really didn't need to be done. I personally think gnome 2 should have been given more time to work with, but everyone seems to want what's bright shinny fancy and look more like windows....I thought that's why Linux was around, to get away from windows....frankly, I'm a little disappointed.....I've moved to SolusOS which still uses gnome 2 and Ikey is doing a tremendous job of it as well.....the devs here in Mint, don't seem to be listening to us pee-on's or don't care what we have to say, they just continue on their merry way and with all who follow after them....I know you guys put lots of hard work into this, but I thought Linux Mint was all about community.....it doesn't seem like community when you don't listen to everyone, you seem to listen to only a select few.....devs should spend a little more time here on the forums and actually listen, that should be your homework....cheers


Andrew

[bimsebasse]

I think everyone is aware of that, jesse. Polls are still useful even though they are not flawless. Clem probably wanted to gauge DE/Shell popularity among Mint users before deciding how Mint 13 will be put together, to that end a poll with this many votes is probably a relatively reliable indicator, no one is expecting complete reliability in a poll.

A "relatively reliable indicator" of what? "Popularity"? In what way? In how many users use it? In how often it is used? In how useful that use is? The frequency of one DE's use as compared to another? Or one of a million other questions. This is my point.

And I think "I think everyone is aware of that" is vague and can be applied to almost nothing in life. How common is common sense?

And to be clear, if one understands the limitations of the forum poll, I believe it is useful when compared to the blog poll and other information sources.

You're over-complicating things. Again, just because a poll doesn't give exact and fully reliable data or answers one unambiguous question, they are still useful (with this many votes). All your concerns are accepted by everyone who votes and everyone who makes polls, they don't mean polls are useless, however. E.g this poll clearly and without doubt shows that Cinnamon is popular among Linux Mint forum users, and it clearly and without doubt shows that Unity is only very modestly so.

[cwwgateway]

Well...I was using LMDE when it started with gnome 2, then everyone decided to split or fork gnome 2, which really didn't need to be done. I personally think gnome 2 should have been given more time to work with, but everyone seems to want what's bright shinny fancy and look more like windows....I thought that's why Linux was around, to get away from windows....frankly, I'm a little disappointed.....I've moved to SolusOS which still uses gnome 2 and Ikey is doing a tremendous job of it as well.....the devs here in Mint, don't seem to be listening to us pee-on's or don't care what we have to say, they just continue on their merry way and with all who follow after them....I know you guys put lots of hard work into this, but I thought Linux Mint was all about community.....it doesn't seem like community when you don't listen to everyone, you seem to listen to only a select few.....devs should spend a little more time here on the forums and actually listen, that should be your homework....cheers


Andrew

Gnome 2 was forked because it was killed by the gnome devs. The mint devs are listening to the community and trying to bring back gnome 2 through MATE. Also, cinnamon, gnome shell, MATE, and unity don't look like windows. I would do some more research before posting comments accusing the devs of things. SolusOS, while it's great and I like it, is based on Debian stable, which is still using gnome 2, but mint is based on Ubuntu, which uses gnome 3. SolusOS will go to a heavily modified gnome 3 fallback with SolusOS 2 because they have no other choice.

[kmb42vt]

Well...I was using LMDE when it started with gnome 2, then everyone decided to split or fork gnome 2, which really didn't need to be done. I personally think gnome 2 should have been given more time to work with, but everyone seems to want what's bright shinny fancy and look more like windows....I thought that's why Linux was around, to get away from windows....frankly, I'm a little disappointed.....I've moved to SolusOS which still uses gnome 2 and Ikey is doing a tremendous job of it as well.....the devs here in Mint, don't seem to be listening to us pee-on's or don't care what we have to say, they just continue on their merry way and with all who follow after them....I know you guys put lots of hard work into this, but I thought Linux Mint was all about community.....it doesn't seem like community when you don't listen to everyone, you seem to listen to only a select few.....devs should spend a little more time here on the forums and actually listen, that should be your homework....cheers


Andrew

@cwwgateway - You beat me to the post.

Without meaning any offense, Andrew, you seem to have gotten the wrong impression about things. Let's cover a few.

No one just decided to "split or fork" Gnome 2. The developers behind the Gnome DE replaced Gnome 2 with Gnome 3 over a year ago (April, 2011). Gnome 2 at that point was officially "dead" meaning no more development or updates. The Gnome developers at that point had released Gnome 3 with the much maligned "gnome-shell" which rides on top of Gnome 3. They also offered a "Fallback" mode which looked something like the old standard Gnome 2 interface (two panels-one top, one bottom as seen in Gnome 2 in Ubuntu before Unity) but it was looks only. No customization at all.

Canonical did not like what they saw and the Unity DE interface was developed for Ubuntu (which is actually a Compiz plugin) which, for the first release of Ubuntu using Unity, rode on top of Gnome 2.32. The second release 6 months later, was ported over to and rode on Gnome 3.

Linux Mint saw what was happening and did not like either interface (gnome-shell or Unity) and released the next version of it's Main Edition using the now deprecated Gnome 2.32 DE (LM 11). Then, as default in Linux Mint 12, they provided a set of extensions that made Gnome 3's gnome-shell DE act more like Gnome 2.32 (task-centric rather than app-centric) while also including their, still under development, fork of gnome-shell for Gnome 3 called Cinnamon. Linux Mint also took a group of developers who had forked the now deprecated Gnome 2.32 (called MATE) under their wing and offered all 3 DEs in Linux Mint 12 and later LMDE UP4/newest LMDE respin. MATE is a continuation of Gnome 2.32 and will be further developed.

In short, Linux Mint did not have a choice. Gnome 2 was dead, kaput. Ubuntu had gone with Unity which wasn't an option and the default Gnome 3 with gnome-shell which wasn't an option either. So they were forced to make a decision. MATE and Cinnamon were the results.

Now, Ikey based SolusOS on Debian Stable (Squeeze) which is the only reason SolusOS (currently RC3) comes with the old Gnome 2.32 DE simply because when Debian Squeeze was released, Gnome 2.32 was still the latest version of the Gnome DE. Ikey has already stated that once the next version of Debian Stable is released (Wheezy), it will include Gnome 3 which, if I recall correctly, will include Ikey's redeveloped Gnome 3 "fallback" mode. So either now or later, you'll be losing the Gnome 2 DE and have to go with another Gnome 3 with a modified user interface or find another DE rather than Gnome.

So who should have the devs listened to, Andrew? Those who wanted Gnome 2? Those who wanted gnome-shell?, Cinnamon? Mate? Gnome 3 fallback mode? Those who wanted Gnome 2 were not the majority by any means. It all boils down to the simple fact that no matter how "community oriented" any software may be, if the devs based their development strictly by what the community wanted, they'd never release anything.

[bamm]

Well...I was using LMDE when it started with gnome 2, then everyone decided to split or fork gnome 2, which really didn't need to be done. I personally think gnome 2 should have been given more time to work with, but everyone seems to want what's bright shinny fancy and look more like windows....I thought that's why Linux was around, to get away from windows....frankly, I'm a little disappointed.....I've moved to SolusOS which still uses gnome 2 and Ikey is doing a tremendous job of it as well.....the devs here in Mint, don't seem to be listening to us pee-on's or don't care what we have to say, they just continue on their merry way and with all who follow after them....I know you guys put lots of hard work into this, but I thought Linux Mint was all about community.....it doesn't seem like community when you don't listen to everyone, you seem to listen to only a select few.....devs should spend a little more time here on the forums and actually listen, that should be your homework....cheers

That is not true.

The reason we have Cinnamon and Mate is precisely because the Linux Mint devs listen to community. It is precisely because they want to preserve the Gnome2 look and feel inspite of upstream moving to Gnome3.

When SolusOS upgrades to a version based on Wheezy you will see Ikey doing much the same thing the Mint devs are doing now, which is to modify Gnome3 to suit users who still prefer the Gnome2 way of doing things.

You can't just use Gnome2 now. You know why? Because once you sudo apt-get upgrade all your gnome components will be upgraded to version3! (Oooh!)

The reason Mint 11 Katya was able to use a Gnome2 base was because Ubuntu Natty used Unity on a Gnome2 base. But Ubuntu Oneiric switched to a Gnome3 base, then Mint 12 Lisa had to modify Gnome3 to make it function more like Gnome2, just for users like us.

Then came Mate. Mate is Gnome2 renamed, so this means it will not upgrade to Gnome3. Mint devs saw that there are people who would want to stick with Gnome2, and not a modified Gnome3. Thus they offered Mate too! What more should they do to bring Gnome2 back to us?

Now LMDE is based on Debian Testing, and when Testing switched to Gnome3, LMDE had to follow upstream. So when Update Pack 4 was released, the Mint team included Mate and Cinnamon for you, and even gave you the option of switching to a repository that retains Gnome2!

I do not see how the Mint team could have done more than they did to keep the Gnome2 experience despite upstream moving to Gnome3. If anything, they should be commended for the wonderful work they are doing. And finally, they should be thanked for listening to community when its upstream distributions don't.

[monkeyboy]

One can collect any data they want, in any way they want. However the interpretation lays in the hands of the consumer. Put another way folks see what they want to see in polls. Enjoy

[millycat]

I think there should always be two desktop environments included with the distribution. One that is useful and with pretty effects (for surfing the net, music, movies - Cinnamon for example) and the other with focus on speed, good work-flow, and very low on system resources (for work - Fluxbox, Xfce).

[Lumikki]

In my opinion best way is allow people to choose they desktop on installation of Linux Mint.
I think ability choose is allways better than pre-selected choises or all choises allways installed.

[RedLeg]

For the life of me, I really cannot understand why people hate Unity so much. It has allowed an incredible increase of productivity when I use my computer. The DE is truely a forward thinking approach to using computers while keeping in mind how necessary it will be in the near future to keep your hand held, television, and desktop devices in sync. The Mint community is really missing out by taking such a principled and conservative stance about what their screen looks like when they prefer a buggy Cinnamon over Unity. I only wish the nay-sayers had given Unity all the patience, waiting, input for improvement, and understanding of flaws that was given to Cinnamon and MATE.

[Lumikki]

For the life of me, I really cannot understand why people hate Unity so much.

This is because people around the world aren't same, they don't like or hate same things.
It's the most ignorance to think that, what you self like is what others should like.
I tested Unity and it did not fit for my use. I don't hate Unity, but Cinnamon is better for me.

[Uhlstone]

Moin
Ich hab jetzt einige Tage Cinnamon, auf meinem alten PC und auf meinem neuen Notebook ausprobiert.....
...das ich Unity nicht mag brauche ich ja eigentlich nicht groß erwähnen...
...mir gefällt Cinnamon am besten.
Ein paar Punkte die mich überzeugen: Es läuft schnell - Einfache Erweiterbarkeit - Tolles Design
Das einzige was mir jetzt noch fehlt wäre sowas wie ein "Benutzerdefinierten Anwendungsstarter" mit dem ich mir ein eigenen "Button" erstellen kann,
aber das kommt ja vielleicht noch?!

Nur weiter so, tolle Arbeit.

Gruß
Andre

[Jesse654]

The developers behind the Gnome DE replaced Gnome 2 with Gnome 3 over a year ago (April, 2011).

Kirk, thanks for that clear history. I'm curious: When did the Gnome devs announce (if at all) that G3 was going to "kill" G2?

@andrew5859, for the record, Clem & Team *listening to users* is one of the best things about Linux Mint. It is one of the main reasons I'm here.

[Gaugamela]

For the life of me, I really cannot understand why people hate Unity so much. It has allowed an incredible increase of productivity when I use my computer. The DE is truely a forward thinking approach to using computers while keeping in mind how necessary it will be in the near future to keep your hand held, television, and desktop devices in sync. The Mint community is really missing out by taking such a principled and conservative stance about what their screen looks like when they prefer a buggy Cinnamon over Unity. I only wish the nay-sayers had given Unity all the patience, waiting, input for improvement, and understanding of flaws that was given to Cinnamon and MATE.

Maybe that's the difference between the Ubuntu community and the Mint community.
In here everyone seems to be more constructive. Which is also fostered by a great team of developers that actually listen to the users (opposed to Canonical).

[Gaugamela]

I use two desktop environments in Mint 12:
Cinnamon and KDE.
I actually prefer KDE over Cinnamon since it seems that both aim for the same purpose: a traditional desktop interface that gives a lot of tools for customization but KDE is much more polished.

I love the Dolphin file manager over Nautilus (which in Gnome 3 is pathetic) and with Cinnamon I use the Marlin file manager over Nautilus even if it's still in Beta.

IMO, the Mint devs should focus on offering Cinnamon and MATE as their main Gnome based choices, XFCE as a lightweight desktop and KDE.

For Cinnamon and Mate I don't know if anyone is working to port Mate to Gnome 3 but when Cinnamon is mature enough I don't see a reason to continue supporting MATE and the man-power behind MATE could bring a lot of resources to Cinnamon. Cinnamon has the potential to become as big as KDE, just innovate and bring interesting features from both Gnome 3 and KDE.
If it adds the polish of KDE, with its unique looks, a file manager better than Nautilus it will be a winner.

As for KDE, with release 4.8 it is in a great state! I love it (after changing the icons to Faenza), it is traditional, customizable, has lots of widgets and applets and a lot of additional software. IMO Clem should focus on creating a customized version of KDE unique to Mint. Something with their own icon set and window theme and with a slimmed down bundle of software. There's so much software being offered with KDE that it borders on the bloatware.