Poll: Desktop environments

[Gaugamela]

I use two desktop environments in Mint 12:
Cinnamon and KDE.
I actually prefer KDE over Cinnamon since it seems that both aim for the same purpose: a traditional desktop interface that gives a lot of tools for customization but KDE is much more polished.

I love the Dolphin file manager over Nautilus (which in Gnome 3 is pathetic) and with Cinnamon I use the Marlin file manager over Nautilus even if it's still in Beta.

IMO, the Mint devs should focus on offering Cinnamon and MATE as their main Gnome based choices, XFCE as a lightweight desktop and KDE.

For Cinnamon and Mate I don't know if anyone is working to port Mate to Gnome 3 but when Cinnamon is mature enough I don't see a reason to continue supporting MATE and the man-power behind MATE could bring a lot of resources to Cinnamon. Cinnamon has the potential to become as big as KDE, just innovate and bring interesting features from both Gnome 3 and KDE.
If it adds the polish of KDE, with its unique looks, a file manager better than Nautilus it will be a winner.

As for KDE, with release 4.8 it is in a great state! I love it (after changing the icons to Faenza), it is traditional, customizable, has lots of widgets and applets and a lot of additional software. IMO Clem should focus on creating a customized version of KDE unique to Mint. Something with their own icon set and window theme and with a slimmed down bundle of software. There's so much software being offered with KDE that it borders on the bloatware.

[kmb42vt]

The developers behind the Gnome DE replaced Gnome 2 with Gnome 3 over a year ago (April, 2011).

Kirk, thanks for that clear history. I'm curious: When did the Gnome devs announce (if at all) that G3 was going to "kill" G2?

@andrew5859, for the record, Clem & Team *listening to users* is one of the best things about Linux Mint. It is one of the main reasons I'm here.

Jesse654 - The following link is the earliest reference by Gnome team (April 1st, 2011) that the Gnome 2 DE would not receive any further development and all effort would be placed on the future release of Gnome 3.0. And there's only a short mention of of Gnome 2 being discontinued at that. Here's the exact quote and the link to the actual post:

At this time, there will be no new release in the 2.x series and all developer effort will focus on improvements to GNOME 3.0.

http://www.gnome.org/press/2011/04/apri ... 1-release/

There may actually be an earlier post that mentions that with the release Gnome 3.0 that Gnome 2 would be deprecated but I haven't gone that far back on the Gnome news blog archives yet.

[kmb42vt]

...For Cinnamon and Mate I don't know if anyone is working to port Mate to Gnome 3 but when Cinnamon is mature enough I don't see a reason to continue supporting MATE and the man-power behind MATE could bring a lot of resources to Cinnamon...

Porting to MATE to Gnome 3 isn't an option since MATE is a direct fork of Gnome 2.32. All it's "pieces/parts" that included "gnome" in the package name had to be renamed to something else so as not to conflict with Gnome 3. MATE is "Gnome 2 continued" so to speak. Also, the MATE developers are not part of the Mint team but a separate entity. Clem has joined the MATE team as project manager but does no developing for MATE himself.

There is a large portion of Linux distro users who still prefer the traditional style, functionality and customization ability of the Gnome 2 DE and that's what MATE provides. MATE and Gnome 3 are simply two entirely different DEs. Like Gnome 3 and KDE.

[RedLeg]

It's the most ignorance to think that, what you self like is what others should like.

And the same goes for the Unity haters as the utter outrage continues. I am not ignorant, and I do not think others should like what I like but I do think people should be more open for change. What has been plainly obvious since the release of GNOME 3 Shell and Unity is a fear of progression and development. It is hard to figure out why people would work so hard to configure GNOME 3 to look and feel like GNOME 2 while ignoring the huge potential being developed by Canonnical. There is a certain awe and wonder to see how powerful the Mint community is and what it is able to accomplish, but there is equal awe behind the vision and dedication of the Ubuntu devs.

It would be really interesting to see what the Mint community would accomplish if a portion of it was willing to advance Unity to fit the Linux Mint standard.

[Lumikki]

It's the most ignorance to think that, what you self like is what others should like.

And the same goes for the Unity haters as the utter outrage continues.

Yes, thinking that others has to hate what you self hate, is also ignorant. Of course it's very easy to understand the Unity situation. People liked what they had and then it got changed. Some liked the change and some hated. There is nothing else in it, everyone can make they own choices.

I am not ignorant, and I do not think others should like what I like but I do think people should be more open for change.

Yes, I agree that people should be open for changes and try them out. But people should not assume that all changes are better or worst. After people have tryed the new thing, they can deside them self what was better for them.

It would be really interesting to see what the Mint community would accomplish if a portion of it was willing to advance Unity to fit the Linux Mint standard.

Mint commmunity is trying to support something what they like as better for them. I don't see anyting wrong to have more options as long they are choises. How ever, I think every distribution also has they own path and style. So it's more about choosing your distribution, than trying to change some distribution to fit your own needs and liking.

[kmb42vt]

It's the most ignorance to think that, what you self like is what others should like.

And the same goes for the Unity haters as the utter outrage continues. I am not ignorant, and I do not think others should like what I like but I do think people should be more open for change. What has been plainly obvious since the release of GNOME 3 Shell and Unity is a fear of progression and development. It is hard to figure out why people would work so hard to configure GNOME 3 to look and feel like GNOME 2 while ignoring the huge potential being developed by Canonnical. There is a certain awe and wonder to see how powerful the Mint community is and what it is able to accomplish, but there is equal awe behind the vision and dedication of the Ubuntu devs.

It would be really interesting to see what the Mint community would accomplish if a portion of it was willing to advance Unity to fit the Linux Mint standard.

It simply boils down to choice just like it always has. There's a very large portion of users who don't like the Unity DE and feel much more at home with the more traditional style desktop paradigm that's been around since the mid 90's. For a desktop style PC, a "task centric" DE is more conducive to work flow than an "app centric" DE is and Unity and gnome-shell are both "app centric" DEs. Still, it's all about what people prefer and people definitely do not think alike.

Just out of curiosity, why should the Mint team put any effort into furthering Unity when Canonical is doing such a fine job of it themselves? And any user can install Unity in Linux Mint rather easily themselves since the Unity packages are already available via the default repositories for the Ubuntu based Linux Mint main edition. I can't see any real reason for the Mint team to offer a Unity only version of Mint when it can be installed and set up in about 15 minutes or less by the user themselves.

Just my opinion of course.

[cwwgateway]

It's the most ignorance to think that, what you self like is what others should like.

And the same goes for the Unity haters as the utter outrage continues. I am not ignorant, and I do not think others should like what I like but I do think people should be more open for change. What has been plainly obvious since the release of GNOME 3 Shell and Unity is a fear of progression and development. It is hard to figure out why people would work so hard to configure GNOME 3 to look and feel like GNOME 2 while ignoring the huge potential being developed by Canonnical. There is a certain awe and wonder to see how powerful the Mint community is and what it is able to accomplish, but there is equal awe behind the vision and dedication of the Ubuntu devs.

It would be really interesting to see what the Mint community would accomplish if a portion of it was willing to advance Unity to fit the Linux Mint standard.

Everybody has the right to hate something and to not use something. Sharing your opinion in a constructive manner is good. Forcing your personal likes and dislikes on others, though, isn't good. Your first comment was fine except for saying that OTHER people were wrong and you couldn't understand why they would think how they did. You went past your own beliefs and criticized other people's beliefs. Personally, I don't mind unity, and I can see your point (besides the not understanding others part). I, however, prefer the way my desktop was before unity. Trust me, I've given unity a good two week try, and I still like what I had before, so I use Cinnamon. Change can be good, but I think that there's something to be said for not having to relearn things if there's no need. Should I be open to change that makes ME (not anybody else) less productive? If it helps you, that's great, and I'm glad you found unity, but it doesn't help me and it doesn't help a lot of other people, so I'm not going to use it. Unity has a lot of potential for its purpose, but its purpose doesn't fit the purpose of linux mint. Linux Mint isn't trying to have one unified interface, it's trying to be a desktop operating system. Using Cinnamon on a tablet would probably suck (I've never tried so I don't really know). But as a desktop interface it's pretty good. But, at the end of it, I'll use what I want to use and you'll use what you want to use. Linux Mint will use as default what the community wants them to use. If Gnome suddenly died, though, and its source code vanished, meaning that using or forking gnome wasn't an option, it would be interesting to see what the Mint devs would do to unity.

[Cythes]

My choice is XFCE hands down. Its quick its nimble and it means I can keep using mint with you freezing / glitching. My secondary bet would be with e17.

[BTPFMJ]

...how necessary it will be in the near future to keep your hand held, television, and desktop devices in sync...

It may be convenient or even useful in many cases, but it will never be useful, and certainly not necessary, for everyone or in every situation.

...fear of progression and development...

It's not fear of progress, it's not wanting to break things that work, not wanting to abandon good ideas simply because they no longer seem cool and fashionable. The traditional desktop has been refined and polished for roughly two decades now, we have mature products and design principles, and the traditional desktop works extremely well for very many use cases.

The new interfaces are not at all better. They are simply different because they've been designed with different use cases in mind. They have different strengths and weaknesses, they work better in some situations and are bad in others. It also depends on personal preferences, as not everyone likes to organize things the same way.

It's unfortunate that many people have gotten so enthralled with these new ideas about user interfaces that they view them as the savior of computing and as a solution to every problem, and have become so single-minded about it that they would like to eradicate the old and tried ways instead of offering their new ideas to be used alongside the old ones where it makes sense, where people find it convenient. Contrary to what those evangelists say, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the traditional desktop, it just isn't the best fit for every situation, just like the new interfaces aren't either.

It [Unity] has allowed an incredible increase of productivity when I use my computer.

Good for you. I for one am very comfortable with and extremely fast in the command line and vi. Does it mean that I should advocate that everyone use the same? Obviously not.

One size does not fit all.

[Mizh]

Awesome Wm!!!! Everyone should try a tilling window manager!.. I have never been so satisfied with a window manager.
Awesome wm is truly awesome!

[FiReSTaRT]

Here are some of my observations...

Background: Gnome 2.x diehard - it was the perfect setup for me but then Space Coke Mark and the GNOME Hippies had to go tablet on us.

Tried:

KDE - Actually not bad, it's definitely been improving, but a bit bloated and just didn't feel right to me and had issues with some default applets. Don't wanna bash it, it's ok, just not my cup of tea.

Unity - ZOMG! THE BEST THING EVER!!! Just kiddin' [a bit of vomit] Next...

GNOME Shell - Once I put in the MGSE, it was pretty usable, I liked the extra focus on the keyboard, needed to install Cairo and spend a lot of time setting it up to meet some additional functionality needs, but all in all it was resource-intensive, my fan was on at all times (got an old Lappy dual core 1.9GHz, limited to 4GB of RAM, shared with video), so I decided to see what XFCE was all about

Mate - Gave it a bit of a whirl in the early days but it was unpolished, didn't see much of a dev perspective in it and I liked GNOME Shell with Cairo better

XFCE - Tried it because I was annoyed by the resource hoggyness of GNOME Shell. Very nicely implemented on Mint. For some reason XUbuntu wasn't taking kindly to GTK themes. Works like a charm on Mint. Decked it out the way I had my Gnome 2.x with full functionality, even though you needed a rocket surgery degree to set up the panels, the Weather applet was moody as hell, Thunar's a bit buggy but they've made huge strides in useability and notifications weren't as nice as on any of the GNOME's. That's been my primary post-GNOME2.x DE as of now. Minor annoyance: Don't like the lack of preview in the icons once I got rid of Nautilus (as it was messing with my desktop icons, forget exactly how but it was annoying).

Cinnamon - Just installed it and set it up today, mostly as a result of Maya's coming. Might just be the one.. Haven't heard the fan come on even once, but it looks smooth and polished. Easily set it up to be pretty damn close to my GNOME2.x ideal. I also like the way the Menu works and cuts down on the use of the mouse. A few remarks:
-Configuration on the go!!!!!!
-Panels should be a bit more customizeable, like natively having 2 panels on the bottom. The 2 bottom panels extension is nice but what it really does is cover up the bottom of the application that I'm using. I'd also like to have more control over the sub-panels and icon placement in them.
-More theme integration - for example: If I like dark background with light text, I'd like for my applications like gEdit, XChat and Thunderbird to adopt it.
-Easier applet/extension/theme installing/upgrading. It was easy enough for me as I've been around the block, but a newb would need a bit of a crash course to get it figured out.
-Needs a bit of bug hunting.. Those baloons that come up with the application name when you hover over the quick launch icon sometimes won't go away and they cause a visual distraction. It displayed a bubble notification when I sent a message in Empathy but didn't display one (just a quick flash in the upper right corner but not enough for me to figure out what) when I closed the chat window and received a reply). Some of my packages have a blinking taskbar notification feature - Cinnamon should support it.
-Needs customizing the taskbar area - I like for the items to appear chronologically by default but still to be able to move them
-ALT+F2 was disabled by default for some reason?!
But all in all, it's going in the right direction and I'll probably stick with it when I dump Lisa for Maya.

Who I am: Seasoned Linux desktop user who dabbles a bit in administration. Been running Ubuntu since 2008 until Mark snorted up all that Space Coke and puked up Unity. Kept relying on Maverick as I wasn't buying into Mint until I realized that I needed to go with an actively developed DE and I read about Clem's team working on that on 2 fronts. That's when I gave Lisa a try. For work, I've mostly used Debian workstations, for embedded devices OpenWRT, for my personal server projects, CentOS, so I'm not buying Clem's toenail clippings on e-bay or anything like that

P.S. I didn't vote Cinnamon as I only installed it to give it a try after reading a couple of pages of this thread, voted GNOME Shell and XFCE as that's what I was using on this machine until today.

[nykur]

I use Xfce and Gnome Shell for my two main computers, each assigned to a very different task. Neither DE is perfect, but they each suit me for different purposes. If I'd find a single DE I could set up (whitout spending too much time on config) for all my computing needs, I'd probably go for it, but I don't know if that's a realistic or even a desirable prospect. All the variety is natural as people have different needs and tastes, this is one of the main reasons to use free operating systems on the desktop rather than some crapware.

[jcris]

Mate is just freaking awesome. Cinnamon is slick but still in the "getting there" process, but will get there soon enough. I think the Mate/cinnamon Linux Mint Debian release was the idea of a genius. I voted Mate but the option to log into cinnamon, and be apart of history in the making is nice.

[MALsPa]

Awesome Wm!!!! Everyone should try a tilling window manager!.. I have never been so satisfied with a window manager.
Awesome wm is truly awesome!

I really like that one, too.

[linux-dummie]

Fluxbox, though I'm only using it in PCLOS as I await Mint 13. What tremendous user-power in such a simple package! Not much eye candy, so no attraction for former Wind-blows users, but ask me if I care. When it comes to eye candy, I'm only interested in a machine/OS that lets me get my work done as quickly and smoothly as possible with the least frills. FB foots that bill for me.
Truly wish they would bring FB back to Mint. Ahhh, the genius of Mint with the simplicity of Fluxbox----such a great combination, and I would never even think about another distro!!!

[steve88]

I am mainly a 'task centred' Gnome desktop PC user, and wrote previously in the forum regarding my choices of DE in the latest poll. I voted for Cinnamon + MATE + xfce (as lightweight alternative). I also supported a move to LMDE as way forward and moving away from Ubuntu base in longer term.

Due to current lack of maturity of both Cinnamon & MATE, I said I was logging in and out to change between Cinnamon & MATE dependant on what I need to do, and happy to do this as both develop over time.

Subsequently following the posts in both forum & blog, it is clear that feelings in all camps run very high on the subject of 'best' DE, and that the development of Gnome 3 and Canonical's 'Unity' etc. which appear to many to be primarily motivated by a wish to make inroads into the (more commercial rewarding?) 'touchy feely' mobile/hand held/small netbook world, at the expense of Desktop PC (and possibly the more statically used larger laptop) needs.

Refining touch screen 'application centred' DE's is perceived as the (only?) way forward/progress by some, and indeed may increasingly prove to be beneficial for the touch screen mobile/hand held/laptop/netbook world in moving forward. However, this singular course is predicated (incorrectly IMHO) that desktop PC's/users are a 'dying breed'.

Such an assumption is a total anathema to the very many desktop PC users who are not yet dead and are horrified that people might not recognise that they want/need to do specific work tasks on a PC rather than 'fingerpoke' some convenient 'App' or game on a small touch screen.

It is also unlikely that corporate, and other desktop users will want to invest inappropriately in more recent touch screen devices of all sorts unless they offer increased labour effectiveness/efficiency and can meet their 'task specific' needs, and offer cost benefits. (You need to go a long way to better the old fashioned desktop keyboard + mouse, in the hands of a skilled user if you want to input data/type letters/edit photo's/create graphics etc.)

The change to Gnome 3 DE in whatever form is such a paradigm shift and raises many unanswerable/difficult questions, and it will no doubt take time (several years) for the various DE options (including MATE & Cinnamon) to be tried, tested, changed and progressively refined to meet the many genuine, but clearly very disparate needs of the users of this fast developing/changing technology.

The KDE DE has been through similar cathartic change, has survived, and has become the excellent choice of DE for many.

Perhaps it is contentious to suggest, but possibly we might not simply and conveniently fall into either the mobile/handheld/fingerpoking app users category, or into the dead, staid, inflexible desktop 'task orientated' users, but actually, between the extremes there is a very wide middle ground where people ectually have a need to use and embrace several aspects of the technology (e.g. I carry a netbook on holiday but use a PC at home: I have a mobile, but do not want it to do much more than telephone and prefer a 'land line' if possible: I have a good camera and prefer that to using my mobile phone camera etc). I do not want an 'all singing & dancing' gadget that just gives a compromise level of functionality ease of use.

Why is there such a fight about what individuals think is best. Given a chance, the pendulum will swing naturally and eventually slow at a the best achievable position for all of us (until something else appears to initiate change).

Clem (and his team) have stated that he does not want Linux Mint to develop into the pure hand held/mobile etc area, and has a commitment to maintaining a usable desktop PC DE. By initiating the 'poll(s)', he clearly wants to get a 'feel' for how existing Linux Mint users and other Distro users regard their DE's in order to better shape the future of Linux Mint. (Given the current 'state of flux', ongoing debate, and diverse user opinion this is very brave and akin to shooting with a single gun at multiple fast moving birds all flying in different directions)

The 'Poll' is about finding out what people might want; it is not an 'election' to identify a one option 'winner' or 'loser'.

Clem and his team have been watching the pendulum swing and have made very wise choices up to now. I have no personal doubts that he/they will fully consider people's DE feelings as far as possible/practicable, plus all of the other more technical aspects, and will move forward as he sees fit to continue to give us the best DE's possible in the circumstances, and I think we can have confidence in his judgement.

Good luck to him and his team in deciding the best way forward, and many thanks for being brave and putting his head over the parapet.

[wangwang]

I like Cinnamon and I use it daily but I wish to have flexibility to change the bottom bar size and icon size for my old eyes.

[Oyabunbaba]

I like Cinnamon and I use it daily but I wish to have flexibility to change the bottom bar size and icon size for my old eyes.

Exactly on my 17" laptop with 1600x900 is very small

[Trapper]

I've been doing a lot of investigating/experimenting for a Gnome 2 replacement. My final determination is that nothing Gnome 3 related or Unity related is going to get the nod here. MATE testing has been extensive in a number of scenarios and distributions. In the end, I've found LMDE MATE to be the best option for us. We get to continue on without having to "retrain" everyone in how to use the desktop. We have the added bonus of having a distro that's ongoing and ongoing and ongoing. And, did I say it's quite fast in comparison to 12.04 alternatives? Well, the alternatives aren't actually what's slow but the 12.04 they are running on is.

[brassman5]

Back when KDE 3.x was en vogue, I was a straight-up KDE guy. Then the nightmarish initial release of KDE4 came out, and I made the switch to Gnome 2.x. After the abomination which is Unity was thrust upon us, I discovered Linux Mint. I have to say, Mint was such a breath of fresh air! When Mint 12 KDE came out, I thought I'd give KDE another shot. The current release of KDE has blown me away. It is fast, stable, and feature-rich. Never looking back. Many thanks to the Mint and KDE development teams!

I do have to point out something that I have seen repeated in this thread that annoys me -- the idea of "Windows wannabes". Look, if something works well, why change it? Completely coming up with a new desktop concept for the sole purpose of "being a real alternative" is idiotic. Ford cars all have four wheels, seatbelts and a steering wheel. Does that mean all Chevys are Ford wannabes?