Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

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Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sat May 19, 2012 12:11 pm

If you started out with a pure LMDE install and switched to Debian Testing/Sid repos, how much of Mint is left for you? Things like Mint tools, Ubuntu-style font rendering, etc...the things that make Mint what it is.

Which version of LMDE did you start with and how long have you been tracking Debian with it?

I just got to wondering the other day when LMDE stops being LMDE :lol:
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby GeneC on Sat May 19, 2012 1:38 pm

Hi Squeezy

I had been tracking both LMDE-SID and Testing on two separate partitions since My first LMDE install Dec 26th, 2010. They both have become more Debian than LMDE, especially in the last couple of weeks. I can do without some of the Mint tools, but I wont give up on the Mint Ubuntu-patched packages, because of this SID has become untenable for me. I gave up that partition, changed to testing there. Changed my Testing partition to 'Incoming'. We will see what future update packs bring. Perhaps time to switch from LMDE to Mint 13. I will just have to see what Clem has in store for LMDE.
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sat May 19, 2012 6:34 pm

Hi, Gene.

"Me too" on the Ubuntu patches for fonts. I've gotten to where I can't look at another distro without being disappointed at how the screen renders. The only Mint tool I've ever really used is the Update Manager so the rest are no problem for me to lose.

I was heavily into building custom minimal installs using the Mint packages repo on top of Testing or Sid but lately it seems like there's nothing that installs properly with the Mint repo enabled. Got me to thinking about you guys running LMDE longterm just how much of LMDE you had left :lol:

You should give Mint 13 a spin. I'm using the MATE release right now and it's possibly the best Mint release I've used yet. It's almost as speedy as LMDE, much snappier than the other U-based Mints I've tried on this old workhorse machine. MATE 1.2 is a great DE, much more stable and functional than you'd expect. If you put the old Julia wallpaper on it you'd swear you were running the old squeeze LMDE with updated software! 8)
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby rhodry on Sat May 19, 2012 9:03 pm

squeezy wrote:If you started out with a pure LMDE install and switched to Debian Testing/Sid repos, how much of Mint is left for you? Things like Mint tools, Ubuntu-style font rendering, etc...the things that make Mint what it is.

Which version of LMDE did you start with and how long have you been tracking Debian with it?

I just got to wondering the other day when LMDE stops being LMDE :lol:


Very little LMDE left here anymore.

Since the Update Packs came in, I use LMDE-Xfce as an installer only & then update to Sid straight away. I too have found that I have recently had to remove the Mint sources as there were more and more conflicts with some of the newer Sid updates. On some installs I have added KDE to the Xfce desktop. I found a blog with some REALLY useful KDE4 tweaks and the difference in resource hits has been exceptional. KDE4/Sid is a very very nice system to use.

I wanted a rolling release and LMDE is nowhere near that anymore, but, Clem still does some really nice enhancements - hence this path; but, the "value added" is down to almost nothing. I will wait to see what the next version of Cinnamon on LMDE looks like, but Mint Per Se has little left that attracts.

Between the latest font apps and some config work, I don't find the fonts too bad nowadays.

I will not use Ubuntu based systems. They truly are the Microsoft of the Linux world. Clem does a great job with a totally flawed base ( IMHO) but their packages are buggy rubbish most of the time and they constantly throw users to the mercy of those damn PPA's, Mono & 'The Cloud'; what a lottery that is! No thanks!

cheers,
rhodry.
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby wayne128 on Sat May 19, 2012 9:43 pm

I have several partitions running
1. pure Debian Sid, the 'most stable of the unstables' as quoted by rhodry and craigevil, this one since feb2011
2. pure Debian Testing
3. pure Debian Stable
4. LMDE testing
5. LMDE-turn -Debian Sid, gnome
6. LMDE-turn-Debian Sid, xfce

after a long time playing and comparing many partitions, I tend to use 1 most often, cos it gave me minimum d.u. issue. it had gnome+kde-plasma. I want to continue it as long as this computer hardware lasts.

recently I use 6 ( near Debian xfce) more often, it started from LMDE-xfce-201204 iso, I changed repos to Debian Sid and delete all Mint repos, then du and delete most thing on mono, gnome stuff, etc, so at the end it is like 95%Debian-xfce with nice mint font. When I do that I use 32-bit and then when it is lean and fast, I clone to USB drive, copy them to two other low end computer ( 9-yr old compaq P4, single core, celeron) and use them for running as network file server( haha don't follow me, no one will put Sid as server I know, but then it is my LAN and I was playing to see how long it will last , however I will not d.u the server!! i simple use it as experiment and learning for myself).

regarding fonts, when I was using Debian 6 the defaults isn/t too nice,
once I followed el_koraco method I got it real nice ( to my eyes, not the ubuntu fonts) so that stayed on the Debian Sid as in 1.

I play with various method of getting into Debian Sid, such as
start from antix core, change repos to sid, and du
start from aptosid, add Debian kernel, remove aptosid stuff, du
start from Debian live, change...
start from Debian netinstalliso....the longest route.
start from LMDE, add Debian Sid repos, remove Mint repos, and mint stuff,, this is the newer method I did and still use it. quite a nice process.. as this starts from 201204 so run time is not too long , more observation to see if any issue..
Last edited by wayne128 on Sun May 20, 2012 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby KBD47 on Sun May 20, 2012 12:46 am

I'm glad this question was asked, because I've wondered the same thing about what you end up with running Sid--the only true rolling release of Debian. After playing around with several LMDE installs my conclusion is this:

Testing is the worst of all worlds. No reasonably quick security updates, and apps stuck with bugs for long periods. It guarantees a borked system placing you in dependency hell with certain applications. One Testing based install I lost Dropbox, another I lost both Banshee and Rhythmbox, in all cases dependency hell kept me from getting them back. Lost 3 LMDE installs by pointing to Testing sources.

Latest sources places you into limbo where you get neither reasonably quick updates for apps nor quick security updates.

Sid is for the brave of heart and probably not the best choice if you want a Stable system.

The one install I had working great and should have left alone was my LMDE install pointing to Stable sources with backports enabled, I had updates, and a "Minty" system, and newer software and kernels, and the thing was rock solid.

My final conclusion? LMDE should go with Stable sources and backports enabled following the Debian Stable cycle. Anyone wanting to follow Sid can easily change the sources, but will, as I guessed and as you folks are saying, accept that it will not really be "Minty" once you open up to Sid. So Stable and Sid for Mint, that's my two cents, and LMDE should get off of the crazy Testing train.
Those are the conclusions I came to before closing the door on LMDE and moving on to SolusOS. But if LMDE can get into Stable on the next cycle I would not hesitate to make space on my hard drive for it.
kbd47
PS--sorry this was so long, just brought all this to the surface for me.
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sun May 20, 2012 10:06 am

OK, this more-or-less confirms my own observations. I was afraid I wasn't doing something right because whenever I'd venture into Debian repos I'd have to start de-Mintifying my system. I thought I didn't know "the secret". Thanks for the reassurance, guys!

So, what are you guys doing to enhance fonts in Debian? I know they've updated the font apps and libraries. I get my best settings using Grayscale, slight hinting, RGB, even though I have an LCD monitor. Wayne128 mentioned the "el_koraco method"?

KBD47, my fave setup for a long time was the old LMDE moved to Squeeze repos. That was a great system until many of the Mint apps got changed to work for MATE, then I had to start pinning them, etc.

I've often thought that LMDE should be Mint's main edition and get off the Ubuntu base.

You could manage it like this...base the system on Sid repos and let the foolhardy (like me) run that so you get a real rolling release. Let the community do a lot of the initial debugging, problem reports, etc. Every 3-6 months or so move the repo to Incoming and freeze it, do a final debug and make a UP for the people who prefer a more stable system and lastly use the Latest repo to track the current Debian Stable for an effective LTS version.

You'd end up with three Mint variants all the time. I'd call them something like:

Mint Rolling - based on Sid
Mint UP - based on snapshots of Sid
Mint LTS - based on Stable

That's my 2 cents anyway, and it's worth exactly that :lol:
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby wayne128 on Sun May 20, 2012 10:19 am

Wayne128 mentioned the "el_koraco method"?

this one
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 30#p400290
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sun May 20, 2012 11:22 am

wayne128 wrote:
Wayne128 mentioned the "el_koraco method"?

this one
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php? ... 30#p400290


Interesting! I'm going to give that a try. I'm setting up a new Sid/MATE install today.

Also, re: my Mint management scenario above, I thought a bit more about it and realized that to develop the UP for the Mint UP version you'd need a holding area to settle things down before pushing to users. So my revised scenario would be like this:

Mint Rolling - based on Sid, tracking Debian repos directly.
Mint UP - based on snapshots of Sid, managed like LMDE is now with Incoming for UP development and Latest for user deployment.
Mint LTS - based on Stable, tracking Debian repos directly with backports enabled. Maybe a Mint-developed graphical installer for backported packages.
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby GeneC on Sun May 20, 2012 11:31 am

Squeezy

Let us know how you make out with the "el-koraco" method. I tried last week, and must have messed up the instructions (not that clear to me).
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sun May 20, 2012 11:37 am

OK, I'll check back later today :D

One thing that is a little puzzling to me too is where the .fonts.conf file should go. Is that in your Home directory?
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby GeneC on Sun May 20, 2012 11:43 am

Your guess is as good as mine. :?: :lol:

GregE gave some instructions here. viewtopic.php?f=198&t=70230&start=1040#p580484

but after the first command
Code: Select all
su -c 'dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config'

NOW
Code: Select all
sudo  'dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config'


answer = Native, Automatic, Yes


They lost me. :?
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sun May 20, 2012 2:48 pm

Well, I'm back with my Sid/MATE desktop :D

On the su -c thing, I found this:

-c, --commmand=COMMAND
pass a single COMMAND to the shell with -c


I think that's pretty much equivalent to using sudo.

I haven't done the font mod yet but I'm going to assume that file goes in my home directory. When you open a terminal session you start in home, and he doesn't show cd'ing anywhere else.

I'll post the results :!:
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sun May 20, 2012 3:20 pm

Hey Gene, it works! The font rendering is great!

I created both the .fonts.conf and .Xdefaults files and pasted in the code supplied. For the fontconfig-config reconfiguration I answered Native, Automatic, Yes to the questions even though I use the Droid fonts in MATE and Liberation fonts in Firefox/Iceweasel.

It's looking the best a pure Debian setup ever has for me :mrgreen:
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby GeneC on Sun May 20, 2012 4:22 pm

Squeezy

Perhaps you can help me along here.

Here is what I have so far.

=============

1. I ran
Code: Select all
 sudo dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config

answer
Native, Automatic, Yes

2. Ran
Code: Select all
gene@zordon:~$ sudo dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig
Regenerating fonts cache... done.


3. Make a file in HOME called .fonts.conf and add=

Code: Select all
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd">
<fontconfig>
 <match target="font" >
  <edit mode="assign" name="hinting" >
   <bool>true</bool>
  </edit>
 </match>
 <match target="font" >
  <edit mode="assign" name="hintstyle" >
   <const>hintslight</const>
  </edit>
 </match>
 <match target="font" >
  <edit mode="assign" name="rgba" >
   <const>rgb</const>
  </edit>
 </match>
 <match target="font" >
  <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" >
   <bool>true</bool>
  </edit>
 </match>
<match target="font">
   <edit mode="assign" name="lcdfilter">
   <const>lcddefault</const>
   </edit>
 </match>
<match target="pattern">
   <edit name="dpi" mode="assign">
   <double>96</double></edit>
</match>
</fontconfig>


4. And last
This goes into a file i create in Home called
.Xdefaults
Code: Select all
Xft.autohint: 0
Xft.antialias: 1
Xft.hinting: true
Xft.hintstyle: hintslight
Xft*dpi: 96
Xft.rgba: rgb
Xft.lcdfilter: lcddefault


==============================
EDIT:

OK. I went ahead and did all the above.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Holy smoke!
I worked it.
Crystal clear fonts in Chrome..

Not sure what the
Code: Select all
touch .fonts.conf
nano .fonts.conf

Was all about, did nothing there, but seemingly unnecessary (for me).

Thanks to all involved.! :D
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sun May 20, 2012 4:53 pm

Yep, the .fonts.conf and .Xdefaults files go into your Home directory.

GeneC wrote:Not sure what the
Code: Select all
touch .fonts.conf
nano .fonts.conf

Was all about, did nothing there, but seemingly unnecessary (for me).


The "touch" command lets you create a blank file if one by that name doesn't already exist. If a file by that name does exist, it updates the time stamp on the file without having to open it.

So,

Code: Select all
touch .font.conf
creates that file in the current directory and,

Code: Select all
nano .font.conf
opens the file in the nano editor within the terminal so you can paste the code into it.

I'm pretty impressed. This is a fullblown Debian install with font rendering that rivals Ubuntu/Mint.

PS - Hey, how's that for highjacking my own thread?! :lol:
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby GeneC on Sun May 20, 2012 5:00 pm

Thanks.

Learned something on the 'touch' and 'nano'. I must say that part had me confused. :lol:
I just manually made the files with gedit and put them in my HOME.

Yes, the fonts are as good as ever.
Thanks for the help. I made a link to the posts in the SID Breakages thread. :wink:
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby squeezy on Sun May 20, 2012 5:02 pm

GeneC wrote:Learned something on the 'touch' and 'nano'. I must say that part had me confused. :lol:
I just manually made the files with gedit and put them in my HOME.


There's always more than one way to skin a cat :D
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby wayne128 on Sun May 20, 2012 6:08 pm

GeneC wrote:Thanks.

Learned something on the 'touch' and 'nano'. I must say that part had me confused. :lol:
I just manually made the files with gedit and put them in my HOME.

Yes, the fonts are as good as ever.
Thanks for the help. I made a link to the posts in the SID Breakages thread. :wink:



Gene,

congratulation
you made it, nice font.
closer to pure Debian Sid. :mrgreen:
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Re: Couple quick questions for those tracking Testing/Sid

Postby zerozero on Sun May 20, 2012 6:13 pm

GeneC wrote:Yes, the fonts are as good as ever.

i now hope that you stay around with sid :mrgreen: :lol:
Image

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