Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Discuss non-support related topics related to LMDE.
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Should LMDE be based on the next Debian stable (7 Wheezy) from next year?

Yes
15
37%
No
26
63%
 
Total votes : 41

Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby saad1gamer on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:24 pm

I request Clem and the whole Linux Mint community to base Linux Mint Debian Edition on Debian stable when Debian 7 wheezy becomes stable next year, while also continuing to base Linux Mint Debian Edition on Debian testing for those who wish to use that. Just make two versions of LMDE 1- Linux Mint Debian Stable (LMDS) and 2- Linux Mint Debian Testing (LMDT).
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby Monsta on Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:33 pm

I think most people will understand the titles of both thread and poll as "I'd like LMDE to be based only on Debian Stable", not as "I'd like LMDE to have two editions - Stable-based and Testing-based". Yes, I see you explain things in your post, but it's what people would see second, not first. :)
I'd change these descriptions just for clarity.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby Oscar799 on Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:41 pm

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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby saad1gamer on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:06 pm

Or if it is not possible for Linux Mint to base LMDE on Debian stable, at least they should provide some easy way to base LMDE on Debian stable for those who wish to use that set up. The present tutorial and other information are very complex.

http://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/497

viewtopic.php?f=200&t=99741
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby zerozero on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:41 pm

ok, i try this one :wink:

1- a linux distribution shouldn't change its base every year or so; lmde already did that once and probably we are not yet recovered from it;

2- the UP are a stable base, upgrades are tested, regressions (as far as one can identify them) are flagged and workarounds and/or fixes found;

3- even with UP the most common complain is the lack of updates or how rare they are; can't see how this scenario would improve basing lmde upon stable;

4- compatibility reasons: Mint supports directly 2 DE's (mate and cinnamon) and both are dependent on upstream libraries that would either deny any update to those DE's within lmde or force a lot of backports to insure that the new cinnamon and new mate would run in the old lmde-stable (a non-realistic scenario specially now that Mint is downsizing, see the drooping of lxde and flux)

5- the only supported (and official lmde) is the one based on latest/incoming; all the rest are expressions of freedom :D the howto and the topic you linked above is just one of the options (lmde has several others) and atm that option is hard to follow and has several drawbacks because we are in the end of this debian stable cycle; surely coming next february somebody will come up with a new howto (similar to this one but adapted to the new reality) and you'll see how easy it will be.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby saad1gamer on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:52 am

zerozero wrote:ok, i try this one :wink:

1- a linux distribution shouldn't change its base every year or so; lmde already did that once and probably we are not yet recovered from it;

2- the UP are a stable base, upgrades are tested, regressions (as far as one can identify them) are flagged and workarounds and/or fixes found;

3- even with UP the most common complain is the lack of updates or how rare they are; can't see how this scenario would improve basing lmde upon stable;

4- compatibility reasons: Mint supports directly 2 DE's (mate and cinnamon) and both are dependent on upstream libraries that would either deny any update to those DE's within lmde or force a lot of backports to insure that the new cinnamon and new mate would run in the old lmde-stable (a non-realistic scenario specially now that Mint is downsizing, see the drooping of lxde and flux)

5- the only supported (and official lmde) is the one based on latest/incoming; all the rest are expressions of freedom :D the howto and the topic you linked above is just one of the options (lmde has several others) and atm that option is hard to follow and has several drawbacks because we are in the end of this debian stable cycle; surely coming next february somebody will come up with a new howto (similar to this one but adapted to the new reality) and you'll see how easy it will be.




zerozero,


how about instead of just posting :how to" http://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/497 and other information in the
forum http://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/497 where one has to download the iso after which one has to do much hard work, require much time and is difficult, if you could just provide users with a ready to use iso for Debian stable users it would be a great help to the users who wish to use Debian stable. After installing the ready to use iso, I think there would still be a little work to do before the OS is ready to use but it would be a boon. At least, that much help to users from Linux Mint could be expected! That would also show Linux Mint really cares for its users/fans.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby MALsPa on Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:30 am

zerozero wrote:4- compatibility reasons: Mint supports directly 2 DE's (mate and cinnamon) and both are dependent on upstream libraries that would either deny any update to those DE's within lmde or force a lot of backports to insure that the new cinnamon and new mate would run in the old lmde-stable (a non-realistic scenario specially now that Mint is downsizing, see the drooping of lxde and flux)


Sounds like the fact that Mint is going with Cinnamon and MATE effectively kills any hope for LMDE based on Debian Stable, is that correct?

If so, too bad. I'd be much more interested in a Stable-based LMDE than I am in one based on Testing.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby den68 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:02 am

I'd be much more interested in a Stable-based LMDE than I am in one based on Testing


you might want to have a look at SolusOS, could be a good alternative for your needs.
I am currently using it in parallel with LMDE, it works great.

cheers.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby zerozero on Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:20 am

MALsPa wrote:Sounds like the fact that Mint is going with Cinnamon and MATE effectively kills any hope for LMDE based on Debian Stable, is that correct?

i might be wrong but that option (lmde-stable) was never there, see points 2 and 3 in my answer above.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby MALsPa on Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:54 am

den68 wrote:you might want to have a look at SolusOS, could be a good alternative for your needs.
I am currently using it in parallel with LMDE, it works great.


Thanks, SolusOS does look great. I think that as far as these types of distros go I'll probably stick with straight Debian Stable and Mepis and SalineOS, at least for now.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby lm4td on Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:00 pm

The LMDE team does us a favor by ensuring the UPs are compatible.

Its not like LMDE is based on Debian Unstable. If that were the case, there would be legitimate concerns about breakage and compatibility.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby craigevil on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:20 am

Any time there is a survey about which Debian release people run unstable usually ends up winning.

I know of very few people that actually use Stable on their desktop/laptop, on their server sure.

Most people want newer packages. Just look through the threads here at least half of the posts are people asking how to get newer versions.

Stable is hardly bug-free, if it was #debian (on both freenode and OFTC) wouldn't have 1000+ people in it 24/7.

If anything the safest route would be to base LMDE on sid, that way there wouldn't be much of a different at least with package versions between LMDE and Mint.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby squeezy on Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:31 am

craigevil wrote:If anything the safest route would be to base LMDE on sid, that way there wouldn't be much of a different at least with package versions between LMDE and Mint.


+1

I've been advocating LMDE based on sid for a while. With it realistically taking 6 months between UPs it'd actually be much more like the main edition but without all the (dumbing down) Ubuntu modifications.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby nunol on Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:04 am

Sure, another Mint edition would mean more work but there are some advantages:
- LMDE based on stable would be on a two year release schedule. It's not as much work as LMDE based on testing.
- If timed properly the same LMDE release could be use to make both the stable and the UP/testing with only a few modifications. Even less work and a very cool feature.
- Debian stable has support for about 3 years unlike current LMDE and the non LTS Ubuntu releases.
- Debian it's better to build a lightweight Mint edition than Ubuntu. Mint LXDE could return and be lighter and faster than any other Mint edition.

I tested LMDE with UP several times and I find that it's not as fun as LMDE with testing or sid but not stable, secure and dependable enough to make it my primary desktop. As a result I don't use LMDE that often but a stable LMDE would change that and could become my primary desktop replacing Mint 9 LTS. For some stable is probably to old even when it's new but for me that's not a issue at all.

If the Mint devs could spare the resources to make a LMDE stable edition would be great but if not that's OK also, Mint 13 it's a LTS release and shouldn't be to difficult to change to stable one of the next LMDE releases.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby killer de bug on Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:03 pm

For persons who want a LMDE with a debian stable, there is 2 solutions at least :
1) change your sources.list. It takes 10 seconds so it doen't need a new release.
2) Just install Debian.


Debian stable means no upgrades of the softwares for 2 years if you don't use backport. Sorry but I'm not sure I want to stay with firefox 3.5... :mrgreen:
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby MALsPa on Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:22 pm

killer de bug wrote:For persons who want a LMDE with a debian stable, there is 2 solutions at least :
1) change your sources.list. It takes 10 seconds so it doen't need a new release.
2) Just install Debian.


Yeah, might as well stick with #2

killer de bug wrote:Debian stable means no upgrades of the softwares for 2 years if you don't use backport. Sorry but I'm not sure I want to stay with firefox 3.5... :mrgreen:


I use Chrome in Debian Stable, so that isn't an issue. But you can install and use the latest Firefox in Debian Stable, right? You don't have to stick with Iceweasel from the repos (now at 3.5.16-17 in Stable) unless you really want to.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby widget on Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:03 pm

lm4td wrote:The LMDE team does us a favor by ensuring the UPs are compatible.

Its not like LMDE is based on Debian Unstable. If that were the case, there would be legitimate concerns about breakage and compatibility.

Just to help dispell this idea a bit more, I actually use Debian testing as my production OS. I also have Sid installed kind of as my backup in case I screw up testing.

Sid, right now, is trouble free on my hardware.

Testing may be, have to check carefully, but I have had several Xorg related packages pinned for a month now. They break testing if using my video card.

Sid and testing arguments are common. Which is more easy to maintain? There are more bugs in Sid than in testing. Bugs in Sid get fixed a LOT faster than they do in testing.

A lot of the bugs in Sid that migrate to testing never get fixed really. You just have to wait until a clean package arives from Sid. This rarely takes as much time as this Xorg business has but that is mainly due to my crappy, poorly supported card. When it does happen, though, the wait can be tedious.

I will probably be shifting Sid when Wheezy goes stable.

Ubuntu bases their releases on testing and Sid. LTS is based on testing. All others on Sid. Some folks even think that Ubuntu releases are stable.

LMDE does a lot better job of taming the packages in testing than they do. This is one very stable OS. Just about as boring as Debian stable. If you want stability, boring is a really great thing.
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby DrHu on Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:15 pm

I don't think any developer/Linux distributor wanting to provide a current Linux experience would want to stick with stable releases when a testing release which would include later application and updated kernels + bug fixes is available
    And in terms of Debian, their testing releases are quite stable
    --its experimental/development versions that are the riskier choice..
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby saad1gamer on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:59 am

killer de bug wrote:For persons who want a LMDE with a debian stable, there is 2 solutions at least :
1) change your sources.list. It takes 10 seconds so it doen't need a new release.
2) Just install Debian.


Debian stable means no upgrades of the softwares for 2 years if you don't use backport. Sorry but I'm not sure I want to stay with firefox 3.5... :mrgreen:




It does not take 10 seconds to base LMDE on Debian stable. It takes a lot of time as well as the process is very complicated and difficult. What Clem and the Linux Mint team could do the least is to offer a ready to use iso and a small forum (without official support from Linux Mint team) for LDME based on Debian stable (as a gesture of goodwill to their community) so people who wish to use LMDE based on Debian stable do not have to do much hard work and give much time just to make the iso ready to use following the below tutorials. They could just burn the iso and use it on their own.

http://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/497

viewtopic.php?f=200&t=99741
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Re: Request to base LMDE on Debian stable next!

Postby monkeyboy on Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:50 am

It does not take 10 seconds to base LMDE on Debian stable. It takes a lot of time as well as the process is very complicated and difficult.

Users learning the basics of system management is necessary in the Linux world. Learning how to do simple things like manage their sources list is part of that basic package.

What Clem and the Linux Mint team could do the least is to offer a ready to use iso and a small forum (without official support from Linux Mint team) for LDME

If the Mint folks release any official .iso and don't support it they are going to be buried under a excrement storm. Lack of support has been the death knell of many Linux projects. Perhaps it would be better for the users to step up and do such a project on their own. Users helping users control their own systems is a treasured part of the Linux heritage. Enjoy
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