Why do new people give up on Linux?

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/dev/urandom

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by /dev/urandom »

KBD47 wrote:and no Windows viruses :-)
... but Linux exploits which are not really easier to track for the average user. If there would be a malware-free system, everyone would use it, right?
KBD47 wrote:Linux being free
It is not. Not even the core system is.
KBD47
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by KBD47 »

Since using Linux I've never had to pay a cent for the operating system, and I've never once been shutdown by viruses. I was monthly cleaning viruses off of Windows, and two computers were killed by Windows viruses. The only thing I've 'paid' for Linux is time invested learning how to use it. Though something can be found wrong with anything if we try hard enough :-)
/dev/urandom

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by /dev/urandom »

KBD47 wrote:Since using Linux I've never had to pay a cent for the operating system
"Free" is not meant as in "free beer". You could also get Windows "for free", cough. But that's not it.
KBD47 wrote:I was monthly cleaning viruses off of Windows
Sorry, but: PEBKAC. Viruses don't fall down the sky.

BTW, the interesting part of hacking is using a target machine as a zombie. The trick is to make you not notice that you are infected.
krustymk

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by krustymk »

Frustration!!!!

Its 2012

There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal

Perhaps Windows does make people lazy but what good reason is there that, lets say 'Java', go to the website download the latest double click and it just works? I looked at the installation instructions and nearly gave up then and there!!

Its not 1985 any more guys, terminal window should not be a requirement for the average user 'ATALL'!!

I want to use Linux but i dont have the time or the patience to learn all the jive just to install and get a basic system working

So, my brief experience

Java... gave me a headache (completley unnessasary run about)
Flash.. slow and laggy and choppy video
ATI HD 9670 driver.. is it installed, isnt it??? why is there no GUI showing hardware and driver information? I want to see a list of all hardware and what drivers are installed (if any) against it!. And when i did finally manage to run the driver install from ati/amd it says some other part needed deinstalling first... again, back to research, terminal window... WHERE is the click UNINSTALL?

Oh, and how about this little beaut lmao...
I was watching a video on VLC player, paused and walked away, came back later and was presented with the password screen... but i couldnt enter the password, my key strokes where pausing and unpausing the movie (i could hear the sound) so i had to restart (pull the plug) (my password begins with a 'p' should anyone wish to try it)

unbelievable bug lmao

Again, this is 2012

No i havnt asked for help, these basic things should either not occur or answer should be easily found via a search. Again, time i dont have.


I, like the majority of the world expect an OS to be easy for basic day to day use, install/uninstall and setup. I dont want or need to learn to use the terminal, i have far to little time for family and friends as it is.

Linux is a hobby not a tool and until it drops the need for the terminal it will never be accepted by the majority, so quiet trying to get the mountain to come to you and you go to it!
/dev/urandom

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by /dev/urandom »

krustymk wrote:There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal
There absolutely is. The terminal is the most important tool in the Linux world. If a new user does not want that and prefers the mouse, he might go better with Windows or that Apple thingy.

If you don't want to type things into a terminal window every now and then, Linux might not be the right system for you. Good thing there is choice.
Choosing an Operating System should never be done by current hypes.
monkeyboy

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by monkeyboy »

krustymk, There is a learning curve for using Linux and some folks just don't want to or cant address it. That is OK because Linux isn't right for everyone and there are alternatives. Relax and enjoy.
krustymk

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by krustymk »

Thats fine if you dont want Linux to be taken on by a majority, if you do however things need to change, the terminal should be an option if you want to become a default home OS

To the average end user it has to be a simple experiance with a low learning curve for simple things like setting up and installing basic plugins/addons and basic fault diagnosis.

Keep the terminal, but dont make it a requirement for new users to get set up for basic use. The average user should never need to even see it.

Just look at the way the world is going, if it doesnt offer a 'pick up and use it' with a low learning curve it gets dropped or kicked to the side.

The question is ' Why do new people give up on Linux?' ive told you, if you dont like it then thats fine, but thats the way it is and will remain unless you change it.

But i stand by my statement of 'There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal'.
If you disagree, by all means present a good arguement but it wont stop new users leaving
krustymk

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by krustymk »

Here is an example.
I am trying to install flash update from the adobe site in the hope it improves the situation.
I am presented with an rpm or a YUM download option.
Now flash is something that a new user might expect to be installed already, but at the very leaast go to the adobe site, click download and run or at the very least be a simple way to execute the file, double click, right click... something.
No... all i have been able to manage so far is unpack it

Im not asking how to do it, ill figure that out, im saying something so simple shouldnt be so time consuming an effort

Just because an idea is made/used by a competitor doesnt make it a bad idea or something to be laughed at.. we dont do that, this is linux... Ive seen this attitude in industry far to much, but they all eventually take on the good idea's.. after some time.

So, i would like to hear a qood reason why mr average who just wants to browse a bit of facebook, read some email, not look at <violates forum rules> ;) a little bit of basic word processing/spreadsheeting, play a few simple games should open a terminal?
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eiver
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by eiver »

I will cite Linus a bit here:
Adobe is the single worst company when it comes to Linux support, so Adobe... *** you! I wonder how much Google paid Adobe to drop Firefox support under Linux.
monkeyboy

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by monkeyboy »

Thats fine if you dont want Linux to be taken on by a majority, if you do however things need to change, the terminal should be an option if you want to become a default home OS

I think chasing market share would be a fools game for Linux developers to play. It would require billions of dollars for promotion, court fights and an army of paid developers. Linux is a niche OS always has been, is now and I suspect it always will be.

To the average end user it has to be a simple experiance with a low learning curve for simple things like setting up and installing basic plugins/addons and basic fault diagnosis.

Define average user? If its one who can't or won't read a manual, follow directions or move beyond point and click then your right Linux may not be for them but that is alright there are alternatives.


Keep the terminal, but dont make it a requirement for new users to get set up for basic use. The average user should never need to even see it.

That is an opinion you can have but the reality is sooner or later the majority of users end up using the terminal for one reason or another. Otherwise they end up with crippled or at best less that an optimized system.

Just look at the way the world is going, if it doesnt offer a 'pick up and use it' with a low learning curve it gets dropped or kicked to the side.

What about the folks who are already using and supporting Linux? The millions of folks around the world who are able to utilize what is available in Linux. Speaking for myself I don't care if Linux use remained in the single digit as long as it works.


The question is ' Why do new people give up on Linux?' ive told you, if you dont like it then thats fine, but thats the way it is and will remain unless you change it.

No you have given me you opinion and I have offered another perspective. Lets face it we are both probably a little wrong and a little right in our opinions.

But i stand by my statement of 'There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal'.

That is fine you can stand by your opinion but it just that an opinion. Not necessarily a reality one has to believe in.


If you disagree, by all means present a good arguement but it wont stop new users leaving

Don't need to because I don't care, I an a happy Mint user. Hang around long enough and you will see and endless flow of whiners, flamers, ranters and trolls with the same complaints. They come, they go and Linux just keeps rolling along. Not to say that you fit into any of the above categories. Relax and Enjoy
Asimov

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Asimov »

monkeyboy wrote:krustymk, There is a learning curve for using Linux and some folks just don't want to or cant address it. That is OK because Linux isn't right for everyone and there are alternatives. Relax and enjoy.

If you do not want the answer. Don't ask the question! Krustymk summarize all the reason will Linux do not make progress. He forgot one think: be force to reinstall every 3 years. Just when thing run finally smoothly . You are force to open a new can of worm. Why Gentoo is the only distribution with a package manager system with a command "upgrade everything" ?
krustymk

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by krustymk »

Thats fine if you dont want Linux to be taken on by a majority, if you do however things need to change, the terminal should be an option if you want to become a default home OS

I think chasing market share would be a fools game for Linux developers to play. It would require billions of dollars for promotion, court fights and an army of paid developers. Linux is a niche OS always has been, is now and I suspect it always will be.

Firefox managed it without the billions of dollars and so on

To the average end user it has to be a simple experiance with a low learning curve for simple things like setting up and installing basic plugins/addons and basic fault diagnosis.

Define average user? If its one who can't or won't read a manual, follow directions or move beyond point and click then your right Linux may not be for them but that is alright there are alternatives.

Average user would most likely be using facebook, surf the web, view pictures (digital camara) email, maybe word now perhaps a bit of gaming and then and that pretty much it i guess thats it. You talk as if point and click is bad? The more simple your product is to use the better response you'll see. it needs to evolve not de-evolve

Keep the terminal, but dont make it a requirement for new users to get set up for basic use. The average user should never need to even see it.

That is an opinion you can have but the reality is sooner or later the majority of users end up using the terminal for one reason or another. Otherwise they end up with crippled or at best less that an optimized system.

If a user wants to delve a little deeper then discovering and using the terminal is fine but not the average user (as i defined) there is no need for this kind of depth, which frankly just appears to be here just to have bragging rights. DOS got left behind for a reason, about time linux figured it out

Just look at the way the world is going, if it doesnt offer a 'pick up and use it' with a low learning curve it gets dropped or kicked to the side.

What about the folks who are already using and supporting Linux? The millions of folks around the world who are able to utilize what is available in Linux. Speaking for myself I don't care if Linux use remained in the single digit as long as it works.

Linux user base grows everytime it becomes simpler for the end user to grasp easily, is it so hard to work out why? Yes people are lazy, people dont want to read manuals or go on courses, people have lives they want to spend with family or friends. Spending time learning how to install something like java is time that could be spent better elsewhere. We have seen this process can be easy, why make it hard!?
And really, you ought to care that linux doesnt become single digits or it would die, and that would happen a LONG time before it got anywhere near single digits


The question is ' Why do new people give up on Linux?' ive told you, if you dont like it then thats fine, but thats the way it is and will remain unless you change it.

No you have given me you opinion and I have offered another perspective. Lets face it we are both probably a little wrong and a little right in our opinions.

Thats right, this is my opinion, and frankly because i am a new person to linux i am in a far better place to answer this question than you are to say im wrong

But i stand by my statement of 'There is absolutley no good reason any new user should need to open a terminal'.

That is fine you can stand by your opinion but it just that an opinion. Not necessarily a reality one has to believe in.

No, thats right but the simple fact this question exists shows weather you believe in this reality or not, its here


If you disagree, by all means present a good arguement but it wont stop new users leaving

Don't need to because I don't care, I an a happy Mint user. Hang around long enough and you will see and endless flow of whiners, flamers, ranters and trolls with the same complaints. They come, they go and Linux just keeps rolling along. Not to say that you fit into any of the above categories. Relax and Enjoy

You dont care?! that is a dissapointing statement in its self and to be honest i think you must else why defend linux, but your missing my point. Im not attacking, maybe whining a little but thats understandable considering. I am attempting to answer the thread's question and give feedback that will help grow Linux

I have pointed out what i believe is the biggest hurdle to a new user, being a new user i think im pretty well qualified to give that answer?
Now, you being an experienced user, i am asking you this question.. Why does Linux 'need' a new user to use the terminal, something that cant be achieved with GUI or a manner similer to windows
bimsebasse

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by bimsebasse »

If your hardware is properly supported in your distro, then the terminal isn't necessary. The key is hardware compatibility and proper drivers. If it isn't, well then non-tech users will have to do some advanced tweaking like the rest of us, a lot of it requiring terminal input. A distro like Ubuntu certainly aims at giving the average newcomers as little reason as possible to use the terminal.
wyrdoak

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by wyrdoak »

Yes , in Linux there sometimes is no option but the command line [terminal] but many times that is less keystrokes than a point and click system. Even with Windows 7 some trouble shooting and other commands are best done at the CMD command line, to me this is a shortcut to point and click. Boot & Startup problems, network problems, System crashes, program problems, and HDD problems, sound familiar? These are some of the main problems I see here in the forum, these, just as in Windows are much easier to remedy from the command line [CMD].

What I like about Linux is most of the time you don't have to spend as much time installing drivers as you do installing the OS, many times no drivers to install. Besides re-installing the other OS, and I've done it may times is just as much fun as pulling hen's teeth, last time I did it from start to installing the drivers was 5 hours, by the time I got to installing the drivers I was bumping my head on the wall. :roll:

Another thing I like about Linux is when people have problems, with what I have learned about the system so far, I can help walk them though it. My friends that "rent" the other OS seems to think that what I've learned over the years and my time are free just because, and can drop off the computer to get fixed for free. I've stopped most of that, now I'm an a$$ for wanting to be payed for my time. [most of it is just fixing stupid, and there is no real fix for that,besides I know someone that will fix it for me for free attitude ]I still have no problem walking them though a problem and help them fix it most don't want helped, they want it fixed for free, so they can do something stupid again . Even my 70yr old aunt likes me to to walk her though a problem in windows 7, than to just come over and fix it, which would really be less time for me but she likes to learn so she can do it on her own, she even has a notbook that she keeps notes in next to the computer for quick reference for problems that have been solved before. So I think most of the problems people have with Linux is their mind set of letting someone else do all the thinking not the OS.

And yes I'm a cranky old man today :lol:
krustymk

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by krustymk »

This 'other' OS?
its certainly not window7, ive built a few systems for friends and the only problems ive really encountered are with onboard sound drivers when i have had no disc.
Installing is not really much different at all, except in mint i struggled to get it to choose a drive i wanted. I was sure i deleted a drive and set linux to install on that thinking it would format it correctly and install..... OHHHH NOOOO... nothing so simple.
From a dvd i would say they are similer to install time wise, Linux is a whole other ball game concerning drivers (its better, but still rubbish) windows7 has them pretty much all on-board, and if not when you are connected to the net it finds, downloads and installs them for you. Anyone who says Linux is easier than windows for drivers is blatently talking rubbish. I still cant even find a list of hardware in my machine with driver information against it, something so basic. Oh look my graphics card is not using the correct driver, quick download, double click, wait, sorted

If you mean apple... no experience really, reinstalled a macbook once, different... it had to download the OS as part of the procedure... Thats apple i guess

The terminal should be for people who fix, an end user shouldn't need to touch something like the terminal.

But, i guess sticking your head in the sand and going lalalalala will stop new peolpe leaving?

But here's an out there idea,

Listen to what new users say (dont jump to defend the current system) LISTEN
Ask questions, what if's, how about this and so on
Check out the feasibility, sometimes change is hard and not always a bad thing
Do not EVER bash competitors systems or compare in a negative manner, sounds at the very least unprofessional and fanboyish

I dont think the problem is with letting someone else do the thinking, certainly not with me.

The problem is ease of setting up, straight away a new user will hit a wall (unless he/she) is lucky
I wanted to install java, i look and straight away im hit with a wall of text
It says what to do but it all assuming a certain level of knowledge already that a new user doesnt have

For example

Install
Login as Super user. ?
how do i do that. more research
Change to the directory in which you want to install. Type:
cd
For example, to install the software in the /usr/java/ directory, Type:
cd /usr/java
Note about root access: To install Java in a system-wide location such as /usr/local, you must login as the root user to gain the necessary permissions. If you do not have root access, install Java in your home directory or a subdirectory for which you have write permissions.
What?! Super user, root user, what is root access, if i can just install in my home directory why all this other stuff, write permissions

Loads of research to install something once.
The majority of new users (if they install themselves) will only need to do things like this once, its just not worth the time and energy doing the research, hitting wall after wall, waiting for answers just to install several programs/drivers they will never have to do again untill reinstall/upgrade time. So they leave

Hence loose the terminal and things like this will be forced to become silent installs or at the very least GUI
frodopogo

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by frodopogo »

I agree with krustymk and other who say that the terminal has to be avoidable for noobs as much as is humanly possible.

I do agree that the idea of targeting more technically advanced users seems sound.

One thing Apple did in it's early days was target creative people- musicians, artists, writers who wanted to do desktop publishing, but were creative, right-brained types who didn't want to learn arcane DOS commands.

I think Linux, or at least a particular Linux distribution needs to do something similar. The thing is that many artists and musicians are POOR.
(Ask me how I know...) They can't really afford a new Windows computer, let alone a Mac. Macs are great for SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, and writers! And when you're trying to create something, you really don't need virus-related stresses! But Apple proved that creative right-brained people DO NOT want to use the command line, no matter WHAT you call it!!! And they don't want technospeak related stresses either!

I think to some degree distros are missing the boat by targeting look and feel rather than targeting creative communities with the tools they need to get the job done.
I think Mint should COME with a real-time kernel, Audacity, and better sound setup.
Oh yeah... there IS another creative community that Linux could target- podcasters. I think they tend to be ready for a little more of a learning curve, and since they have some extra overhead for microphones and stuff, would be happy for free software.
And since videos are a big deal due to YouTube and all, Linux Mint should come with video editing software installed.

I know there is Ubuntu Studio, but somehow I think that Mint has the philosophy that will work best for musicians.
IDEA... maybe make the LTS releases the ones loaded with the extra creativity software.
/dev/urandom

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by /dev/urandom »

frodopogo wrote:Apple proved that creative right-brained people DO NOT want to use the command line
Have you ever worked (IT-wise!) with a Mac? You would know that is wrong.
Even on a bling-bling Mac most things are done best on CLI.

Anyway, most of you guys seem to think in black and white. GUI or CLI. You are mistaken. It is GUI and CLI on all systems out there.
Some things (video editing) are best done with a GUI, others (automatizing your system, sending short mails :mrgreen: , ...) are best done in the terminal. This applies to all major operating systems - even to Windows.
animaguy

Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by animaguy »

I think one common characteristic among linux users is patience. There is a learning curve for new users you can't just call 24/7 customer support to get someone to give you instant gratification everytime something goes wrong.

Linux users ahve to google. Linux users have to register on forums, post their questions and their questions have intelligently written, and they have to wait and hope someone answers and they have to be open that they may not get the answer they were hoping for and that still might not solve the problem.

It takes work to learn Linux and although there is nothing theoretically wrong with work, not everyone is willing to do the work that it takes to be a skilled Linux user who takes advantages that Linux genuinely has to offer.
wyrdoak

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by wyrdoak »

My favorite program for recoloring old photos is "Recolored" [just one of the programs I use]. I would love to have more creative programs for Linux. I have "Recolored" running on WINE so I have it working for me. But for a person new to Linux they would even know that it worked in WINE or for that matter what WINE is. I use GIMP with G"MIC to tweak photos first then to tweak them more. But like was said before, you have to research to find things out. I like "Paint Shop Pro" but I have version 9 working in WINE because with all the crap written in software now that automatically assumes you a bootlegger, I haven't tried my copy of version X3. Applications is the big thing in this IMHO and not really the OS, It's just finding away of making Linux a viable OS to market software for to the software manufacturers. Until that happens there is going to be a problem. A $30 program like "Recolored" is worth it's weight in gold for what it does, but most people even using Windows don't even know it's there and it was written for Windows. If I was Corel I'd be scarfing this one up and adding it to the Paint Shop Pro Suite then increase the price. Yes, a little Bill Gates in all of us. :lol:
Asimov

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Asimov »

/dev/urandom wrote:
frodopogo wrote:Apple proved that creative right-brained people DO NOT want to use the command line
Have you ever worked (IT-wise!) with a Mac? You would know that is wrong.
Even on a bling-bling Mac most things are done best on CLI.

Anyway, most of you guys seem to think in black and white. GUI or CLI. You are mistaken. It is GUI and CLI on all systems out there.
Some things (video editing) are best done with a GUI, others (automatizing your system, sending short mails :mrgreen: , ...) are best done in the terminal. This applies to all major operating systems - even to Windows.
Funny, I did Pascal and C++ programming on the MAC for a least a decade, without CLI. CLI is for programmer with no-sense of ergonomic.
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