The unofficial LMDE XFCE - startup

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The unofficial LMDE XFCE - startup

Postby Schoelje on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:08 am

I just had a chat with Clem.

Unfortunately, the LM team has decided NOT to make the unofficial LMDE KDE official.
The LMDE family will be reduced to MATE and Cinnamon, which means that Xfce will not be continued.
With just 4% of the total user base, LMDE is a very small player and the LM team has chosen to limit the number of versions they have to maintain, to concentrate more on development.

This is very good for LM and their users, but for me personally, it's a big disappointment.

Don't worry though!
I'm having too much fun with LMDE KDE and I will continue working on it.
In the next few weeks I will decide on how I want to do this.
Perhaps it's time for the unofficial LMDE KDE to stand on its own two feet or maybe its better to continue like it is now.
Any ideas, thoughts are very welcome!
Last edited by Schoelje on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The unofficial LMDE XFCE

Postby Adelante on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:51 pm

I am very sorry, Schoelje. I'm glad you will carry on. LMDE KDE deserves to survive. Thank you for all your hard work, past and future.
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Postby g2sws on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:57 pm

Its your baby do as you please. Just be happy. I really like what you have done. I would hate to see it dropped. But like I said happy happy happy.
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Postby GeneC on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:29 pm

Schoelje wrote:I just had a chat with Clem.

Unfortunately, the LM team has decided NOT to make the unofficial LMDE KDE official.
The LMDE family will be reduced to MATE and Cinnamon, which means that Xfce will not be continued.
With just 4% of the total user base, LMDE is a very small player and the LM team has chosen to limit the number of versions they have to maintain, to concentrate more on development.

This is very good for LM and their users, but for me personally, it's a big disappointment.

A big disapointment to me as well... :(
XFCE and KDE are my main desktops. Dont care for either Cinnamon nor Mate. (Why re-invent the wheel :?: XFCE does everything and more that either of they do, and its STABLE).

Time to take another look at Manjaro.
LMDE gets little love here, except for a few of us end users.

Don't worry though!
I'm having too much fun with LMDE KDE and I will continue working on it.
In the next few weeks I will decide on how I want to do this.
Perhaps it's time for the unofficial LMDE KDE to stand on its own two feet or maybe its better to continue like it is now.
Any ideas, thoughts are very welcome!


You've done an excellent job, Thank You for that.. :wink:
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Postby ronnietucker on Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:36 pm

Not being an official does kinda suck, but I suppose it's a blessing in that you can continue to be unofficial and independent.

Personally I'd like to see a modern Debian distro (that's a rolling release) with the latest KDE packages. A rolling release is something that a lot of Ubuntu users would like to see it seems. Certainly from the feedback I got in one of the FCM questionnaires a while back.

KDE deserves a good rolling release distro I think...

Keep up the good work! :)
All the best!
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Postby cwwgateway on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:06 pm

Schoelje wrote:I just had a chat with Clem.

Unfortunately, the LM team has decided NOT to make the unofficial LMDE KDE official.
The LMDE family will be reduced to MATE and Cinnamon, which means that Xfce will not be continued.
With just 4% of the total user base, LMDE is a very small player and the LM team has chosen to limit the number of versions they have to maintain, to concentrate more on development.

This is very good for LM and their users, but for me personally, it's a big disappointment.

Don't worry though!
I'm having too much fun with LMDE KDE and I will continue working on it.
In the next few weeks I will decide on how I want to do this.
Perhaps it's time for the unofficial LMDE KDE to stand on its own two feet or maybe its better to continue like it is now.
Any ideas, thoughts are very welcome!

I find LMDE KDE to be great as it is (although obviously being official would be great). I'm glad you're going to continue to work on it. I think it will continue to do very well despite being official.

However, Xfce being dropped makes me extremely sad. Unfortunately, I might be in the same boat as GeneC - I'm going to have to look elsewhere at least for Xfce :( . I'll probably keep my LMDE Cinnamon install, but otherwise no official Linux Mint releases on any of my systems :( . This means that I'll probably switch to CrunchBang or pure Debian for all of my installs (except maybe Cinnamon).

Ok, I've calmed down a bit now (above was kind of my initial reaction). I guess because LMDE is a rolling release, I don't need to reinstall, so there isn't a reason to switch existing Xfce installs. Also, the Xfce edition could (eventually) come back, and there might be an unofficial Xfce edition. I think I'll move everything except my Cinnamon install to CrunchBang and pure Debian.
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The unofficial LMDE XFCE

Postby Schoelje on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:48 pm

Now that we know that there's not going to be an official LMDE KDE and no LMDE Xfce, I've decided to include LMDE Xfce to my own Debian family as soon as the discontinuation of LMDE Xfce is made official by Clem.
So, for those who were a tad disappointed by the fact of loosing LMDE KDE and LMDE Xfce...there is hope yet!
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Postby zerozero on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:52 pm

Schoelje wrote:I've decided to include LMDE Xfce to my own Debian family

now that is an awesome gift you are giving us Santa :lol: Schoelje
my first wish for this yet-to-come-project is that you please make it a proper xfce edition.
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Postby Schoelje on Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:05 pm

zerozero wrote:my first wish for this yet-to-come-project is that you please make it a proper xfce edition.


Then we need to talk, zerozero: I'm not an Xfce user and I don't know what people expect from it.
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Postby cwwgateway on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:15 pm

Schoelje wrote:Now that we know that there's not going to be an official LMDE KDE and no LMDE Xfce, I've decided to include LMDE Xfce to my own Debian family as soon as the discontinuation of LMDE Xfce is made official by Clem.
So, for those who were a tad disappointed by the fact of loosing LMDE KDE and LMDE Xfce...there is hope yet!

Thank you so much :) . I'm with zerozero - I prefer a real Xfce edition in the sense that LMDE Xfce right now is really Gnome with Xfce installed - it uses almost all gnome apps (like nautilus), and with UP 5 this even pulls down Gnome Shell onto the Xfce edition. Xfce, while fully featured, is meant to be a lighter desktop than gnome, so no nautilus (traditionally thunar), xfburn instead of brasero, etc. Mint Xfce is intended to use apps like this because it's supposed to be a more "mainstream" edition, but it really is no different than installing Xfce over Cinnamon, for example. Zerozero and GeneC are probably the experts on this (and Xfce in general), but if I can help in any way, I'd be happy to.
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Postby zerozero on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:24 pm

we had already 2 xfce "power-users" expressing their fellings here (Gene and cww), i'm just an amazed user by the versatility and beauty of this "small" :wink: DE;

i'm also a bit of a radical when it comes to integration and in the lmde-xfce situation (in the long run) i was right :mrgreen:

what i would like to see:
- a pure xfce DE (as much as possible) with defaults selected first from within the xfce universe and only as a last case scenario look elsewhere (yes this can be done, even in debian: i don't use lmde-xfce but use for some time debian proper with xfce and it's exactly like that)
- as cww is saying avoid the nautilus trap (thunar is more than enough as file manager and in some aspects better than nautilus will be soon :mrgreen: ); there's some problems with this approach (dropbox integration is the first that pops-up)
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Postby cwwgateway on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:11 pm

zerozero, I agree with you about having a "pure" Xfce DE, and it's interesting that you use debian proper for Debian Xfce. I have a debian NetInst with wheezy and Xfce, and it's really amazing. You have to do a lot of work by yourself, but it runs like 70 MB of RAM idle. I installed this over the weekend and, while it isn't for my main laptop, it is great on the old machine it's on.

Just to point out some interesting Xfce distros that could be inspiring, there's Manjaro, which (as Gene mentioned) has a very nice, although a little bit heavy Xfce desktop. Xubuntu, while being fairly bland and unexciting, is actually pretty versatile and IMHO better than some distros based on it that add a lot of not-needed stuff like Voyager (which is very nice for some users). There is a lot to be said about using the default setup except with some beautifying, like Debian does (all though maybe not the beautifying part). SalineOS is a nice debian-based Xfce distro. I haven't personally used any other particularly noteworthy Xfce distros (siduction maybe gets an honorable mention for having xfce 4.10 debian repos that work well with debian testing).

I guess the only other thing on my mind right now is the mint-themes package that includes bluebird, greybird, and mint-x, which all work very well with xfwm/gtk2/gtk3.
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Postby GeneC on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:36 pm

Schoelje wrote:Now that we know that there's not going to be an official LMDE KDE and no LMDE Xfce, I've decided to include LMDE Xfce to my own Debian family as soon as the discontinuation of LMDE Xfce is made official by Clem.
So, for those who were a tad disappointed by the fact of loosing LMDE KDE and LMDE Xfce...there is hope yet!


Schoelje

You are my HERO...... :D

I am late to KDE, (with help from you and 'zerozero',) but I have learned to like it very much and find out how powerful it is, but my FIRST and TRUE love is XFCE..... :oops:
It is so simple, and stable, and can be easily made to do anything Gnome 2.3 could ever do. I honestly never saw the need for all the new DE's that try to emulate our old friend Gnome 2.3. I have my LMDE/XFCE 4.10 desktop setup virtually identical to old Gnome 2.3, and prefer it. Adding a few 'custom actions' to Thunar (open folder as 'root, open file in text editor as 'root', check MD5, open terminal here, et, et) and Thunar is quite powerful (and simple). the new Thunar 1.5+ now has "TABS".
The ONLY thing I find that needs improving is a good MENU EDITOR.... :roll: 'Alacarte' only works very limited, LXMED 'kinda works' (but not perfect).
Good old Compiz works flawlessly.
With my limited knowledge, I would certainly help as much as I could with testing.
You have your hand full with KDE and DDM, but if you have the energy and desire, and "Unofficial LMDE/XFCE" would be very welcome..... :D

An older LMDE/XFCE 4.10 desktop
Mint Menu/ Compiz/Selene theme
Image

Agree with 'zz' and 'cww', dump Nautilus.
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Postby cwwgateway on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:01 pm

I wonder what DM would be the best - there's MDM which mint uses, LXDM (although I don't think that's in the debian repos) which Sabayon and Manjaro use, and LightDM which a lot of Xfce distros use. I usually use MDM and LightDM.
Last edited by cwwgateway on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby GeneC on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:06 pm

'cww'

I am presently using LightDM. It works very well, and is quite simple, and easy enough to customize (though the latest MDM works well with my Maya XFCE install).
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Postby cwwgateway on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:04 pm

GeneC wrote:'cww'

I am presently using LightDM. It works very well, and is quite simple, and easy enough to customize (though the latest MDM works well with my Maya XFCE install).

I have LightDM on a lot of my Xfce NetInst, but on a lot of my installs I can't be bothered to switch, so I use MDM. If/when MDM 1.0.8 enters the LMDE repos I will start comparing to lightdm to see which I like better.


Edit: here's a screenshot of Debian running with compositing and some more apps installed (around 80 MB at startup now):
Image
LMDE Xfce uses around 170 MB on startup, which isn't very good in comparison. While I'd hope any new LMDE Xfce used more than 80 MB (I only have half the apps I need installed), it doesn't need to be as resource hungry as the current LMDE Xfce.
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Postby Schoelje on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:54 am

Gentlemen,

I see I hit a nerve with the LMDE Xfce news :)
Although it would mean that there will be two more distributions to maintain, I'd really like to have a try at it.
There is much to be done, and I won't have it all done in the next few weeks, but in the mean time, could you all send me a PM with a description on how you build your own LMDE Xfce or which applications you use instead of the ones currently used in LMDE Xfce. I want it to become as light as possible so that there is no mistake between LMDE KDE and LMDE Xfce. The first, obviously, if you want the eye candy and don't mind that it uses a bit more resources, and second if you want it lean and mean.

Make that description as detailed as possible.
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Postby GeneC on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:23 am

Hi Scholeje.... :D

Sent you a detailed PM.

I doubt I am a 'typical' XFCE user, in that I am not concerned with a 'light' system. I have a 4 core processor, and 6GB of ram, and don't mind using them..... :lol:
I use AWN dock, that brings in lots of Gnome dependencies. I use Compiz with lots of options enabled.

I have no complaints with the legacy LMDE/XFCE (201204), except get rid of nautilus, it only causes problems with the desktop. I would like to see it go back to tracking Debian 'testing' (where it started) and get away from the Update Packs. I sincerely believe its easier to do daily/weekly updates and fix any little problems that pop up (follow "zerozero's thread :arrow: viewtopic.php?f=198&t=67502), than to wait many months for an UP, and have several problems at once.
And, a GOOD MENU EDITOR..... :lol:

I track SID
I use SMXI for the latest Liquorix kernels, and Nvidia drivers.
Most folks will not.

But, am more than willing to help testing, and debugging with my limited knowledge.

Have fun, and THANKS for all the hard work.... :wink:
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Postby Schoelje on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:21 pm

Today I installed LMDE Xfce and made another one: Debian with a very clean install of Xfce so that I can be sure there is no Gnome at all.

I don't want to be bothered too much with the choice of applications. That is something anybody can do. I need to make it look as good as possible but I prefer to keep the applications close to Xfce and only include Gnome applications if there is no alternative. I don't have any experience with Xfce, so I need your input on this.

Below you will find a list with menu entries of both Xfce instances. You see that in LMDE Xfce there are a lot of Gnome applications and that's why I ask you to look carefully at the list and write behind these applications which Xfce alternative is better to be used and if not Xfce, maybe there is another and lighter application that might be used.
After we have decided on which applications we want to include, the tough job is started: configuration of the new LMDE Xfce and trying to make it look as good as possible.

Code: Select all
Application NOT in LMDE Xfce (but IN Debian Xfce)
Accessories
- Clipman
- Mousepad
- Notes
- Orage Globaltime
- Sensor Viewer
- Squeeze
- Task Manager
- Xfce 4 Print Dialog
- Xfce 4 Print Manager
Graphics
- Ristretto Image Viewer
Multimedia
- Xfburn
Office
- Orage Calendar
- Orage Globaltime
System
- Reportbug
- Sensor Viewer
- Task Manager
- UXTerm
- Xterm

Applications IN LMDE Xfce (but NOT in Debian Xfce)
Accessories
+ Archive Manager
+ Brasero
+ Calculator
+ Catfish
+ Character Map
+ Disk Utility
+ File Manager
+ gedit
+ Network Tools
+ Root Terminal
+ Search for Files...
+ Tomboy Notes
Graphics
+ Document Viewer
+ GNU Image Manipulation Program
+ gThumb
+ Simple Scan
Internet
+ Firefox
+ GNOME PPP
+ Thunderbird
+ Pidgin
+ Transmission
+ XChat
Multimedia
+ Banshee
+ GNOME Mplayer
+ Movie Player
+ Sound Recorder
+ VLC
Office
+ Libre Office
System
+ ADSL/PPPOE configuration
+ Backup Tool
+ Disk Usage Analyzer
+ Domain Blocker
+ Firewall Configuration
+ GDebi Package Installer
+ GParted
+ Login Window
+ Network
+ Network Tools
+ New Login
+ New Login in a Window
+ Printing
+ Services
+ Software Manager
+ Synaptic
+ System Monitor
+ System Profiler and Benchmark
+ Time and Date
+ Update Manager
+ Upload Manager
+ Users and Groups
+ Windows Wireless Drivers
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Postby GeneC on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:49 pm

Others will be of more help here, as the Mint versions of XFCE (Main and LMDE) are the only ones I have ever used and they both are FULL of Gnome stuff. I am used to, and have nothing against Gnome aps. But agree with you that the new LMDE/XFCE should be as Gnome free as possible. (as you mention, we can add anything else we want, easily enough).

Not very much I can mention, but...

Cd burner = use xfburn over brasero, anyday.

XFCE Gnome things, I DONT use.
+
+ Brasero
+ Character Map
+ Network Tools
+ Root Terminal

Graphics
+ gThumb
+ Simple Scan

Internet
+ Firefox
+ GNOME PPP
+ Pidgin
+ XChat

Multimedia
+ Banshee
+ GNOME Mplayer
+ Movie Player

System
+ ADSL/PPPOE configuration
+ Backup Tool
+ Disk Usage Analyzer
+ Domain Blocker
+ New Login
+ New Login in a Window
+ Upload Manager
+ Users and Groups
+ Windows Wireless Dri


As far as dedicated XFCE apps, others using pure Debian XFCE will be of much more help, as I never have used them.

==================

EDIT:
Just a thought.. :idea:
Perhaps you should get a moderator to move the XFCE stuff to a new thread?
This is afterall the The unofficial LMDE KDE UP5 thread... :lol:
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