ntfs and defrag solutions

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ntfs and defrag solutions

Postby jamvaru on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:47 pm

There is a problem linux has with ntfs and basically making it as goofed up as possible
it seems to intentionally make the drive as fragmented as it can and still be functional, as though that were a challenge to the coders
everything is fixable except for the little red dots... this picture is after forcing everything to compress; the little red dots are $SecurityDescriptors, that cannot be moved; they only show up after doing stuff to a ntfs partition with linux

so, one, how can we tell linux to behave better when using ntfs partitions
two, how can we get the $SecurityDescriptors to bunch all in one spot, like the front of the drive

thanks (sry didn't think to get a visual of the drive before doing the forced fill... basically it looked like this but filling the whole screen, with lots of tiny spaces, like fishnet, only smaller holes)
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Re: ntfs and defrag solutions

Postby DrHu on Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:59 pm

Whether or not defragging is necessary for a later windows OS (after NT or XP) is debatable: it used to help
--the people who tend to promote that option are selling defrag products..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defragmentation

How are you going to (in your view) make Linux use ntfs better, since there is a standard driver to access that file format ntfs-ng
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9327

If you are used to windows, and prefer to pay for a commercial product, there are some available, such as..
http://www.paragon-software.com/busines ... fessional/
    the only question is as always, is it really worth the money or not ?
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Re: ntfs and defrag solutions

Postby jamvaru on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:11 pm

curious
i suppose your response would be considered the mainstream thought
mydefrag is free
i'm more interested in addressing how linux manages ntfs partitions and a linux product that can defrag ntfs or at the least do something with the $security_descriptors

is there a way to have linux delete the $security_descriptors? this will solve the problem, or have linux move them to the front of the drive

as far as why defrag... it helps the access time for programs, especially games, which only windows is capable of running, for the most part, though wine is coming along
also, if files are simply written in contiguous blocks the first time, and every time, then fragmentation is not a problem, but they aren't always, so defragging is a necessary chore
a question i'd like to know the answer to is how much error creeps in on a file copy or a defragmentation?
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Re: ntfs and defrag solutions

Postby DrHu on Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:37 pm

OK,

..all I would say is that random access which optimizes whole drive access rates isn't helped by any de-fragmentation: since we expect applications/programs and other parts of the system to find the data without reading sequentially through such data, that is randomly
    Not even games will be helped by non-random access..

I don't defrag drives --except after many months of use, maybe even a whole year, and instead depend on the OS to manage access rates for men --even windows..

But in any case, to each his own.
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Re: ntfs and defrag solutions

Postby jamvaru on Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:03 pm

you might consider that the benefits are negligible or non-existant
the arm takes time to move to the 'front' and 'back' of the drive (your random access time)
placing the drivemap somewhere in the middle, maybe 1/3 or so from the outer rim, means that overall the arm moves less, increasing rat
defragmenting files means taking the bits and pieces that exist on different parts of the drive and putting them in one spot in the proper order
the idea is that the computer can then read the whole file all at once, with one movement of the arm, rather than multiple movements, if it is smart enought to do so, and I believe that is why microsoft make the defrag api, because their os is capable of reading a file at once if it is contiguous
placing a file at the 'front' of the drive is considered superior (faster) because the speed of the drive is greater, so more data can be placed on a single cylinder near the front of the drive, resulting in less movement of the arm
it may also be (im just not positive, but i think so) that the data at the front is retrieved or written faster than data at the back, or near the center, regardless of it being on one or more cylinders

so...

linux has taken the position that fragmentation and optimization is unnecessary; this is true with ssd drives

supposedly linux manages fragmentation and optimization on the fly, however, it certainly fails to do so properly on ntfs partitions, probably because the authors of the code simply don't care or actively hate ntfs, even though they write the code for it; it seems they just want to mess up or ntfs partitions on purpose

at any rate, there are several questions left unanswered

1. is there a way to defrag and optimize ntfs partitions from within linux? (using a linux app or a wine app)
2. is there a way to convince linux to not screw it up from the start, so the defragger is not needed?
3. regarding $security_descriptor(s) ... how can we manipulate these from within linux, to consolidate them into one location or whatever works
4. why the lackluster response?

----

I was able to get a log of which files are unmovable, according to mydefrag, then copy the parent folder to a different drive; after then deleting the original, the 'red dots' were gone (though more remain, from a different folder... same procedure)
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