HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

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Re: Nadia(14) kills wireless, now what?

Postby herbie643 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:27 pm

I found this link that proports to have a driver for Linux.
It would seem that he states the following:
I have recently tried the pre-release version of Ubuntu 13.04, and found that it has the correct driver but does not yet include the necessary firmware file (/lib/firmware/rt3290.bin). I was able to simply copy the file from either openSuSE 12.3 or Fedora 18 Beta to Ubuntu 13.04 Alpha, and the Ralink card worked.

I assume that he booted up in the Live environment and 'installed' via the package manager to the hard drive. I know Synaptic allows you to just 'download' and not install, so then he just copied the driver.

I really have no idea if this works but it's the one solution I found.


http://www.linlap.com/hp_pafilion_dm1-4 ... book-4540s
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby bb333 on Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:05 pm

upcycler wrote:
bb333 wrote:[Now for fun with proprietary wireless drivers

Yes, thank you, I found those, but with no internet access when I am in Linux, how would I download the needed driver? I have no access to another Linux machine (if I did I wouldn't be struggling with this!) For the same reason, no access to the internet, I cannot download the boot repair software either.

Thank you for the link to Fedora. It has the driver for the Ralink RT3290. I see on their boards that probably a dual boot with Win8 probably won't work there either. Also this guy says SuSe has the Ralink RT3290 driver - http://www.zdnet.com/hp-pavilion-dm1-43 ... 000008029/
But he removed Win8. My problem is that I cannot (as far as I can tell) remove and reinstall Win8 since it came "preloaded" on the system. Also I'm afraid to do any disc formatting for fear of damaging the preloaded Win8 which would require me to purchase a new copy-tithing twice to Microsoft for the same item is just too irritating.


Download to usb drive and transfer over.

Ubuntu 13.04 :
http://askubuntu.com/questions/240553/h ... b-firmware
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+sour ... ug/1049466

Looks like you need a 3.6 kernel and newer firmware. That is why fedora and opensuse work; they have both. As a "newbie" I would suggest using what works if you don't want to mess with this.

As long as you don't destroy the recovery partition at the end of your drive, you should still be able to reload win8 fine. Your OEM key should also work for reinstalls; that is how Win7 works.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby viking777 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:52 am

Topic "Nadia(14) kills wireless, now what?" merged with this one as it is the same subject.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby viking777 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:23 am

Can we just recap on this upcycler. Tell me if I have anything wrong in this summary.

At the present moment in time I assume you are using Windows 8 (because your internet it working).

If you install Mint alongside Windows 8 you can only boot into Win 8 - is this still correct?

If you install Mint alongside Win 8 you lose internet on Windows - is this correct?

The confusion arises from the following quotes on the previous page, first you say (referring to your boot choices):

I removed the USB drive and then tried both of the other options. Both just booted me into Windows 8.

How do I boot Mint?


2 posts later you say:

I need a dual Win8/Linux system but Mint(14) booted up with no wireless


So I for one cannot work out what the correct situation is, does Mint boot or doesn't it?

Your problem (certainly in the second case above) is a Uefi (or possibly secure boot) one which has caused enormous problems for large numbers of people, myself included. The only person likely to be able to help you with this is srs5694 as he has a better knowledge of this topic than anyone else here. If you clear up the answers to the questions above that might help him diagnose your problem a little better.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby upcycler on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:08 pm

srs5694 wrote:Clearly you have some form of Internet access, or you wouldn't be able to post here. Do your file downloading using whatever machine you're using for posting here and then "sneakernet" the files over using USB flash drives or whatever.


Yes, thank you for responding, I'm using my Mac. What does "sneakernet" mean? I cannot figure out how to get anything off the Mac and onto the HP since once I have loaded Mint there is no communication. The Mint does not recognize a Mac or Windows formatted flash drive, so I can't move it that way. Is there something else to try?
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby upcycler on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:28 pm

viking777 wrote:Can we just recap on this upcycler. Tell me if I have anything wrong in this summary.

At the present moment in time I assume you are using Windows 8 (because your internet it working).

Yes, I restored the Win8 system.

viking777 wrote:If you install Mint alongside Windows 8 you can only boot into Win 8 - is this still correct?

Yes.

viking777 wrote:If you install Mint alongside Win 8 you lose internet on Windows - is this correct?

Yes.

viking777 wrote:The confusion arises from the following quotes on the previous page, first you say (referring to your boot choices):

I removed the USB drive and then tried both of the other options. Both just booted me into Windows 8.

How do I boot Mint?


2 posts later you say:

I need a dual Win8/Linux system but Mint(14) booted up with no wireless


So I for one cannot work out what the correct situation is, does Mint boot or doesn't it?


Sorry for the confusion, Mint boots from the USB drive that contains the disc image -iso file-the disc image file made in the first installing steps-I don't want to use the wrong terminology. I can install Mint and use it until I restart or shut down. Once the USB drive is removed, only Windows will boot. If the USB drive is re-inserted, Mint tries to install another copy of Mint. Another person suggested that I use a Linux emergency system, but I have been unable to determine what that is (forum & internet searches talk about using it, not where an emergency system is or how it is to be found.)

viking777 wrote:Your problem (certainly in the second case above) is a Uefi (or possibly secure boot) one which has caused enormous problems for large numbers of people, myself included. The only person likely to be able to help you with this is srs5694 as he has a better knowledge of this topic than anyone else here. If you clear up the answers to the questions above that might help him diagnose your problem a little better.

I've been reading about ufei, efi, but can't pretend to know what it all is. I do know the HP lets me make changes to the BIOS. I have disabled secure boot. But, why is there a BIOS if it is a uefi system?
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby viking777 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:36 pm

I've been reading about ufei, efi, but can't pretend to know what it all is.


Don't worry sport, you are in very good company there :lol:


I do know the HP lets me make changes to the BIOS. I have disabled secure boot. But, why is there a BIOS if it is a uefi system?

Because although Uefi firmware is supposed to be a bios replacement it only replaces part of the bios (ie the bit that does the booting) the bit that does the POST and other sundry bits and pieces is still done by the old bios - good eh?

BTW You said in your last post that your MInt doesn't read a Win formatted USB key. It should, most definitely. So maybe that is another problem (and this time unlikely to be related to Uefi).
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby srs5694 on Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:22 pm

upcycler wrote:What does "sneakernet" mean? I cannot figure out how to get anything off the Mac and onto the HP since once I have loaded Mint there is no communication. The Mint does not recognize a Mac or Windows formatted flash drive, so I can't move it that way. Is there something else to try?


"Sneakernet" refers to moving files on removable media -- floppy discs, CD-Rs, USB flash drives, tapes, or what have you. What's viable depends on your hardware. If the only common connector/media available to you is USB, then USB flash drives are the most convenient option. That should work, but if you're having problems with it, you may want to investigate that, although it's a significant detour in solving your main problem. Linux should recognize a FAT USB flash drive. If it doesn't, then it could be a problem with the USB drivers in Linux; however, since you say Linux is booting from a USB flash drive, that seems unlikely. More details would be needed to diagnose this problem.

upcycler wrote: Another person suggested that I use a Linux emergency system, but I have been unable to determine what that is (forum & internet searches talk about using it, not where an emergency system is or how it is to be found.)


Something like PartedMagic, System Rescue CD, or the Mint installation medium booted in its "try before installing" mode. Note that for some purposes, such as using the efibootmgr program, you'd need to boot it in EFI mode (that is, using an EFI boot loader) rather than in BIOS/legacy mode (using a BIOS boot loader). The last I checked, PartedMagic didn't support EFI-mode booting, but recent versions of System Rescue CD do, and the Mint install disc does, too.

upcycler wrote: I do know the HP lets me make changes to the BIOS. I have disabled secure boot. But, why is there a BIOS if it is a uefi system?


You (probably) don't have a BIOS; you've got a UEFI. Manufacturers are continuing to use the term "BIOS" in reference to their UEFI firmware. This is technically incorrect, but I think they're doing it because many people know what a BIOS is, at least roughly, and since UEFI fills a similar role, referring to a UEFI as a BIOS is easier than referring to it as firmware and then saying that BIOS and UEFI are two different types of firmware, and that they've set up their UEFI user interfaces to resemble those of the old-style BIOS.

viking777 wrote:although Uefi firmware is supposed to be a bios replacement it only replaces part of the bios (ie the bit that does the booting) the bit that does the POST and other sundry bits and pieces is still done by the old bios - good eh?


The earliest and crudest UEFI implementations for x86-64 PCs were done as you say, with BIOS doing the hardware initialization tasks and the UEFI part running on top of that. More modern UEFI implementations, though, ditch the BIOS entirely and rely on other tools to do the hardware initialization. This newer approach has the advantage of replacing 16-bit BIOS code with more efficient 64-bit code that's more in tune with the needs of modern OSes. These more modern UEFIs typically feature a "fast boot" mode that bypasses BIOS-style support, for instance. (They can still support BIOS-mode boots by using a UEFI component known as a Compatibility Support Module, or CSM.)

I don't have solid numbers on how many UEFIs are built atop a BIOS, vs. using something else for the low-level stuff. The trend is toward more of the latter type, though, and my suspicion is that most Windows 8 PCs ship with the latter type of implementation.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby upcycler on Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:57 pm

srs5694 wrote: The output of "efibootmgr -v" in both cases might be useful, since that will tell us what (if any) boot loader options have changed. If I'm right that your computer is using a custom boot loader to initialize hardware, that information should enable rearranging a Linux boot loader to boot Windows in a way that will do the same.
That's the most interesting piece of information. If I every find out how to get the information transferred from the computer with no internet access to here, I will.

srs5694 wrote:Clearly you have some form of Internet access, or you wouldn't be able to post here. Do your file downloading using whatever machine you're using for posting here and then "sneakernet" the files over using USB flash drives or whatever.
Can't make that work. My other computer is a Mac. I can download the file and put it on the USB drive, but Linux doesn't recognize it.

Sorry not to respond sooner but work/life intervened. It seems quite possible due to the interactions noted below that if continue to try to install Mint I will wind up with NO operating system --as the Win8 is pre-installed I would have to re-purchase it if the recovery partition is damaged, and it looks like no one knows what Mint is doing to the Win8. Is that a fair understanding?

srs5694 wrote:Ordinarily, a Linux installation shouldn't affect your ability to use hardware in any other OS on your computer. The Linux installer shouldn't be touching files in the Windows partition. The installer will resize the Windows partition, though, and I suppose it's conceivable that it's doing some damage to the filesystem in the process. A more likely explanation, though, is that the Mint installer is doing something to the boot loader configuration that's interfering with a computer-specific boot loader that's doing some hardware initialization. If the Mint installer removes that hypothetical tool from the boot path, then the OS drivers might not be able to use the hardware.


One last mystery is still the 'emergency' or try it boot referred to above, there is no such thing or nothing like that on the menu I have when I boot from the USB drive. My only option is "install mint".

I might be able to do this if I could find some step-by-step instructions as to how to partition the drive so as to not destroy the recovery partition. Frankly, I don't care about the Win8. I'm just required to be able to put it back in the future without re-purchasing it. I cannot tell by looking from Linux what is what on the disc, and there are no basic, clear instructions anywhere that I can find (I've been searching!) Of course, it may be moot anyway if M$ has booby-trapped new systems so Linux cannot be installed without destroying everything. No idea what to try next, I don't really want to give up but--maybe you should have a REALLY newbie forum. I think most of the posts here are from people who have successfully installed Linux before on another machine.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby viking777 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:58 am

Frankly, I don't care about the Win8. I'm just required to be able to put it back in the future without re-purchasing it

Then take a whole disk image, keep it somewhere safe and restore it if you need to - easy.

You can use Clonezilla or Qt4-fsarchiver (there are others but those are the main two). I recommend the latter as it is so much easier to use, but they both work. You can download and burn them with Win8 and they run from live cd or usb so you don't need any existing version of linux to obtain or use them.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/qt4-fsa ... 0language/

(I did a tutorial on using that here: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=124636#p682592 That concentrates on partition imaging because at the time the program did not do whole disk images, but it has been updated and now it does, see the actions menu).

http://clonezilla.org/downloads.php or
http://partedmagic.com/doku.php?id=down ... RjNAJHbBpg ( rescue disk that contains clonezilla).

You may even prefer redobackup http://redobackup.org/ I have never used this one myself, so I can't guarantee it, but I know of people that are quite happy with it. It certainly looks easy to use from its documentation.
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Re: Nadia(14) kills wireless, now what?

Postby upcycler on Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:38 pm

Just copying a file sounds plausable.
http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get- ... river.html
has some more information, although what I get out of it is that the current version of suse does not have support for the Ranlink RT3290 either, you have to use the one that is being worked on. Seems to be something about not a driver but in the kernel, I have no idea what that means. The only Linux that the Ranlink RT3290 works on apparently is Fedora 18 which I see is also "worst red hat distro ever". Great.

herbie643 wrote:I found this link that proports to have a driver for Linux.
It would seem that he states the following:
I have recently tried the pre-release version of Ubuntu 13.04, and found that it has the correct driver but does not yet include the necessary firmware file (/lib/firmware/rt3290.bin). I was able to simply copy the file from either openSuSE 12.3 or Fedora 18 Beta to Ubuntu 13.04 Alpha, and the Ralink card worked.

I assume that he booted up in the Live environment and 'installed' via the package manager to the hard drive. I know Synaptic allows you to just 'download' and not install, so then he just copied the driver.

I really have no idea if this works but it's the one solution I found.


http://www.linlap.com/hp_pafilion_dm1-4 ... book-4540s
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby upcycler on Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:51 pm

viking777 wrote:
Frankly, I don't care about the Win8. I'm just required to be able to put it back in the future without re-purchasing it

Then take a whole disk image, keep it somewhere safe and restore it if you need to - easy.


OK, I checked, that is exactly what the HP "Restore" is, a disc image, I've done that. So that's OK, thanks. But I still have the no-wireless driver (or maybe it isn't a driver, ?) problem, which apparently requires doing something to the kernel or something. I'm not a hobbyist, I'm willing to put in some work (a LOT so far) but what I was really hoping for was something that would work; this is beginning to look like an endless can of worms.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby srs5694 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:14 pm

In Linux, most drivers are part of the kernel. Some are compiled into the main kernel file, and others are loaded as modules, but either way, they're part of the kernel. Some drivers are exceptions to this rule, though, such as printer drivers. The vast majority of network device drivers fall into the first category of kernel drivers, though. If one very new distribution (such as Fedora 18) includes a kernel driver that other slightly older distributions lack, then it's likely that all distributions will support the driver sooner or later -- but it may take a version upgrade or two (say, to Mint 15 or Mint 16) to get that far. Alternatively, you can compile a newer kernel yourself. There are numerous Web sites that describe how to do this. It's really not that hard once you know how. The trouble is that most Linux newbies find the process perplexing, particularly when it comes to selecting the correct mix of the thousands of kernel options. If you try it, be aware that having a sample configuration file (called ".config") can help immensely.
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Re: Nadia(14) kills wireless, now what?

Postby upcycler on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:24 pm

I copied the file rt3290.bin into /lib/firmware and restarted, but the wireless connection is still not working, so that's not a solution.

herbie643 wrote:I found this link that proports to have a driver for Linux. It would seem that he states the following:
I have recently tried the pre-release version of Ubuntu 13.04, and found that it has the correct driver but does not yet include the necessary firmware file (/lib/firmware/rt3290.bin). I was able to simply copy the file from either openSuSE 12.3 or Fedora 18 Beta to Ubuntu 13.04 Alpha, and the Ralink card worked.
I assume that he booted up in the Live environment and 'installed' via the package manager to the hard drive. I know Synaptic allows you to just 'download' and not install, so then he just copied the driver.
I really have no idea if this works but it's the one solution I found.http://www.linlap.com/hp_pafilion_dm1-4 ... book-4540s
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Re: Nadia(14) kills wireless, now what?

Postby upcycler on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:25 pm

One more try, I have used the steps listed http://rricketts.com/installing-ralink- ... ntu-12-04/ . Now when I boot the system recognizes and finds my wireless connection! However, it then crashes or hangs. Also the keyboard indicator light for the wireless connection never comes on, so something isn't finding it.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby viking777 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:30 am

OK upcycler, if wifi is your only problem then why post this:

My only option is "install mint".

I might be able to do this if I could find some step-by-step instructions as to how to partition the drive so as to not destroy the recovery partition


Your HP recovery disc is not the same as a whole disk image because your HP recovery disk requires the presence of the recovery partition to work. The whole disk image does not require this partition, in fact it already contains it.

But I agree with you, that has nothing to do with wifi.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby notransponder on Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:43 am

this information may be a total red herring in your situation. apologies if it adds to the confusion.

machines running windows 8 implement a totally new boot loader called Eufi. this is designed to prevent bootstrap viruses.
basically the eufi loader is an intelligent program that verifies against a list of signatures in firmware the validity of the operating system it is about to load.
you get the signature on application to microsoft and linux mint maya 64 came out before all this nonsense.

I have obliterated Windows 8 off my toshiba laptop and installed linux mint maya 64.
to get linux mint maya64 to load I had to make some bios setting changes on my machine. there was more than one setting that needed changing.
there is a setting that enabled eufi. this I turned off. there was a setting in another section of the bios menu that dictated the eufi load or a backwards compatible cvs?? boot style that emulated the old bios style load.
the changes I made turn off the Eufi load and turn on the older load compatibility. I also made the boot priority look at the ODD (optical disk drive) first.

with those in place I was able to finally get Linux to load off the CD to verify that the hardware was compatible.
then from the cd I did an install letting linux reformat the hard drive and do an installation.
I made one cockup doing this. I have found that you should have a live internet connection going while this is occurring to get all the needed drivers loaded. my initial installation had no networking active and so the hardware check missed the need for it. I believe my installation is now error free.

if you have not used the eufi workaround that the guy posted on another blog page then you need to search your machines bios settings to make sure ALL the settings for eufi are nobbled. I dont think you have all the settings sorted out.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby srs5694 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:41 pm

notransponder wrote:machines running windows 8 implement a totally new boot loader called Eufi. this is designed to prevent bootstrap viruses.
basically the eufi loader is an intelligent program that verifies against a list of signatures in firmware the validity of the operating system it is about to load.
you get the signature on application to microsoft and linux mint maya 64 came out before all this nonsense.


I'm afraid you're confused, and the issue has already been covered in this thread.

First, the name is actually Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI), not "eufi." UEFI is the second generation of EFI (UEFI = EFI 2.x), so it's often discussed under the name "EFI."

Second, UEFI is not a security tool per se; the measure you describe is just one optional UEFI feature, known as Secure Boot.

Both UEFI generally and Secure Boot specifically have been covered in this thread. Currently, upcycler's focus seems to have shifted to getting WiFi working on the computer, and that's not related to either UEFI or Secure Boot.
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby upcycler on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:05 pm

Yes, I gave up on the dual-boot with Win8 since it appears to be impossible. Now I have done something to the HP recovery partition since I couldn't identify which one it was (the way the disc areas are identified in windows and the way they are identified in mint are different and how to tell what relates to what isn't documented anywhere I can find), so now there is no going back.

On the plus side, the wired connection now works for some reason. I tried to start a separate thread about the wireless but it was moved to this thread. The problem with the Ralink RT3290 that HPs use seems to be an issue in every Linux distro.

srs5694 wrote:In Linux, most drivers are part of the kernel. Some are compiled into the main kernel file, and others are loaded as modules, but either way, they're part of the kernel. Some drivers are exceptions to this rule, though, such as printer drivers. The vast majority of network device drivers fall into the first category of kernel drivers, though. If one very new distribution (such as Fedora 18) includes a kernel driver that other slightly older distributions lack, then it's likely that all distributions will support the driver sooner or later -- but it may take a version upgrade or two (say, to Mint 15 or Mint 16) to get that far. Alternatively, you can compile a newer kernel yourself. There are numerous Web sites that describe how to do this. It's really not that hard once you know how. The trouble is that most Linux newbies find the process perplexing, particularly when it comes to selecting the correct mix of the thousands of kernel options. If you try it, be aware that having a sample configuration file (called ".config") can help immensely.


How would I find the kernel that would have the Ralink RT3290 driver that would work with Mint? Or is that the wrong question?
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Re: HP Win8/preinstalled, inst Mint 14, goes back to win8

Postby srs5694 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:33 am

upcycler wrote:How would I find the kernel that would have the Ralink RT3290 driver that would work with Mint? Or is that the wrong question?


Generally speaking, driver life cycles go like this:

  1. A developer writes a driver for a new device and makes it available, sometimes on a Web site and sometimes by submitting it for inclusion in the kernel.
  2. The kernel developers accept it into the kernel and it's released with a new kernel (say, 3.7.0).
  3. Sometimes, distributions "back-port" new drivers into older kernels, or adopt drivers that haven't yet been accepted by the kernel developers into their own kernels. Thus, Mint's 3.6.0 kernel might have some drivers that officially appeared with the mainstream 3.7.0 kernel.
  4. The driver stays in the kernel until it falls into disrepair (which seldom happens).

To track a driver for a specific device, you need to do some searches to figure out where it is. Doing a Web search on "Linux" and the device model number can help. Checking with the manufacturer can help. Downloading kernel source code from http://www.kernel.org and reading its documentation can help. Checking a distribution's release notes can help. I'm afraid that this just isn't easy when you're using bleeding-edge hardware.
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