LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

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LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:40 am

My experience trying to install LM14 alongside Windows 8 has proved nightmarish. First of all I enabled Legacy which disabled UEFI (secure booting). The LM14 DVD claimed half the 750GB HD leaving the other half to W8 but then a message came up on the screen saying that the installation could not go ahead because of something referring to the kernel. After reading many posts re W8 new attempt to deny other OSs from installing on "their" machines, I should have never attempted to install LM14 and had I known about this I would have never purchased my Compaq laptop but, of course, the vendor kept quiet despite me mentioning that I was going to create a dual system. I am now left with an extra partition (E) which I would like to merge back where it belongs: the "C" drive. I have tried several options unsuccessfully. I have downloaded EaseUs partition management software but I must be missing something and got stuck. Eventually, I will wipe out W8 and replace it with LM like with my other machines. Can anybody help with this empty E (NTFS) 300+ GB partition? Thanks. P.S. I have also reset the laptop to factory settings but partition E is still there.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:12 am

All I can manage with EaseUs is shrink partition E which becomes unallocated...
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:34 am

I have just had a chat with a Windows expert and he tells me that my allocated empty partition (created by my attempt to install LMint14 alongside Windows 8 IS THERE TO STAY! I've lost half of my initial 750GB "C" forever! No partition manager can do anything about it. My only hope is that Linux will come up with a fix/switch to unblock W8 and allow the installation of another OS/distro on Windows PCs. Silly me, if only I'd known before purchasing the Compaq laptop...my plan was to play with W8 for a short time and then wipe it out and install Nadia. I wasn't even thinking of running a dual system. Oh well, let's hope that Linux will find a way to come to the rescue of many, like me, that have been tricked.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby srs5694 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:55 pm

riki wrote:My experience trying to install LM14 alongside Windows 8 has proved nightmarish. First of all I enabled Legacy which disabled UEFI (secure booting).


Many people make the mistake of conflating UEFI with Secure Boot. The latter is one feature of the former, and an optional one at that! Unfortunately, the user interfaces and options on EFIs vary greatly, so it's unclear from your description precisely what you did. Enabling legacy (aka BIOS or CSM) support might or might not make the Mint installer boot in legacy/BIOS mode. If not, this action really didn't do anything. If it did, though, then a successful Mint installation would have been in BIOS mode, leaving Windows booting in EFI mode -- a configuration that's awkward at best.

In other words: On a computer with pre-installed Windows 8 (which Microsoft requires use UEFI), you should not attempt to install Linux in BIOS mode; you should install Linux in EFI mode. You may need to disable Secure Boot, though, since most Linuxes (apparently including Mint 14) have poor or no Secure Boot support.

The LM14 DVD claimed half the 750GB HD leaving the other half to W8 but then a message came up on the screen saying that the installation could not go ahead because of something referring to the kernel.


I'm afraid this is inadequate detail to help you debug the problem. Most likely it's not related to EFI or Secure Boot, though. If you want help, you must report the exact wording of error messages. If it's verbose, cut-and-paste it into your post or include a screen shot.

After reading many posts re W8 new attempt to deny other OSs from installing on "their" machines,


Without knowing the posts to which you refer I can't be positive, but I suspect you're referring to Secure Boot problems. The fact that you got the Mint installer working at all (such as far enough to make a kernel-related complaint) means that this is not your problem.

I should have never attempted to install LM14 and had I known about this I would have never purchased my Compaq laptop


Be aware that Microsoft is requiring all Windows 8 laptops and desktops to ship with Secure Boot enabled, which in turn means that they must also use EFI. Because Mint's EFI support is still not as good as it should be, this means that many people are running into problems installing Mint to new computers. There are significant brand-to-brand differences, but AFAIK Compaq isn't worse than average on this score. (In fact, yours is the first Compaq complaint I've heard -- but that may say more about the current popularity of Compaq than anything else.)

I am now left with an extra partition (E) which I would like to merge back where it belongs: the "C" drive. I have tried several options unsuccessfully. I have downloaded EaseUs partition management software but I must be missing something and got stuck. Eventually, I will wipe out W8 and replace it with LM like with my other machines. Can anybody help with this empty E (NTFS) 300+ GB partition?


Not without more details. Try booting a Linux emergency disk and posting the output of:

Code: Select all
sudo parted -l


...or a screen shot of GParted acting on the disk in question.

I have just had a chat with a Windows expert and he tells me that my allocated empty partition (created by my attempt to install LMint14 alongside Windows 8 IS THERE TO STAY!


You need to find better "experts." ;-) This claim is patently ridiculous. (Or perhaps there was a misunderstanding about what was said.)
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:17 am

srs5694, many thanks for your comprehensive reply. First of all, I would like to clarify that in my post I referred to "allocated" instead of "unallocated". In other words when I attempted to install LM it created an E partition which I shrank to unallocated to try to reinstate it. The problem now is that that unallocated partition is wasted space and apparently there is no way to add it back to "C" where it originally belonged, W8 won't allow it. I have even done a factory resetting (twice) but W8 still ignores it and won't claim back the unallocated partition. So I am left with a laptop which had 750GB with only 350GB. That's the problem.

I will digest the rest of your post re UEFI, EFI and Secure Booting from which I realize that my post is not clear enough to get help. My apologies. For now, I would like to sort out, if possible, the unallocated partition problem.

One last thing, LM did create a MBR and on boot up the screen shows two options to choose either W8 or LM but the latter gives an error and in any case LM is not installed so it can't possibly work.

Appreciate your time and help.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:24 am

P.S. The comment I made about the Compaq laptop was not complaining about the brand but about ANY computer/laptop with Windows 8. I will never ever again buy a PC with Windows on it!
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby azurehi on Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:09 am

I need new desktop and am considering one with windows 8. I have looked at the follow scheme several times and wonder whether it is correct. If so perhaps it can be of help to those desiring to dual boot with windows 8 and linux mint 14.

http://www.avoiderrors.net/dualboot-windows-8-with-linux-mint-14-nadia/

Comments appreciated.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:27 am

azurehi wrote:I need new desktop and am considering one with windows 8. I have looked at the follow scheme several times and wonder whether it is correct. If so perhaps it can be of help to those desiring to dual boot with windows 8 and linux mint 14.

http://www.avoiderrors.net/dualboot-windows-8-with-linux-mint-14-nadia/

Comments appreciated.


I have tried avoiderrors and others without success. Since I bought this laptop, a Compaq CQ58 with pre-installed Windows 8, I have spent weeks trying all suggestions I came across but all failed. I have done 4 factory long and tedious resets because Linux messed up the hard drive which I finally recovered running the 4 Windows recovery discs. The first 3 resets were from the drive which ignored the partitions/unallocated space, the result of my attempts to install Linux, dual or full. In conclusion, OEMs have manipulated the motherboard so that only Windows 8 can be installed. They and Microsoft have the secret key to unblock. This may not apply to all computer brands and earlier factory pre-installed software. Microsoft's monopoly will no doubt be defeated sooner rather than later.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby azurehi on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:59 am

I have tried avoiderrors and others without success. Since I bought this laptop, a Compaq CQ58 with pre-installed Windows 8, I have spent weeks trying all suggestions I came across but all failed. I have done 4 factory long and tedious resets because Linux messed up the hard drive which I finally recovered running the 4 Windows recovery discs. The first 3 resets were from the drive which ignored the partitions/unallocated space, the result of my attempts to install Linux, dual or full. In conclusion, OEMs have manipulated the motherboard so that only Windows 8 can be installed. They and Microsoft have the secret key to unblock. This may not apply to all computer brands and earlier factory pre-installed software. Microsoft's monopoly will no doubt be defeated sooner rather than later.[/quote]

Thanks for your reply. I had a strong suspicion that avoiderrors approach was too simplistic. I Also hope that the MS monopoly will be defeated...and Soon.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby srs5694 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:29 pm

riki wrote:In conclusion, OEMs have manipulated the motherboard so that only Windows 8 can be installed.


This is true only of ARM-based computers that ship with Windows 8. Such systems are extremely rare, and they're mostly tablets and smartphones. On x86 and x86-64 systems that ship with Windows 8, Microsoft requires that the user be able to disable Secure Boot; and even if you want to leave Secure Boot enabled, you can do so and install Fedora 18 or Ubuntu 12.10 without changes, or other distributions if you're willing and knowledgeable enough to jump through some extra hoops.

Unfortunately, the BIOS-to-UEFI transition we're undergoing is not going smoothly. This fact has numerous causes, though, not the one or two (often conspiratorial) causes that too many people like to fixate upon. Contributing factors to problems include the following:

  • Firmware bugs
  • Secure Boot (or the fact that Secure Boot support is rare in Linux, depending on your point of view)
  • Weak EFI support in many Linux distributions (Mint included)
  • Inconsistent EFI user interfaces between products
  • Poor user understanding of EFI
  • Poor EFI documentation on the Web
  • BIOS assumptions embedded in decades of documentation and user experience

Those last three could arguably be wrapped up into one bigger and more important cause of problems.

I don't claim this list is comprehensive, but one item that does not belong on the list is "conspiracy to exclude Linux." That item might be on Microsoft's to-do list, but it's not a significant factor in EFI as it's being handled today. I'd say it's important to keep Hanlon's Razor in mind:

Hanlon's Razor wrote:Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:56 pm

srs5694 wrote:
riki wrote:In conclusion, OEMs have manipulated the motherboard so that only Windows 8 can be installed.


This is true only of ARM-based computers that ship with Windows 8. Such systems are extremely rare, and they're mostly tablets and smartphones. On x86 and x86-64 systems that ship with Windows 8, Microsoft requires that the user be able to disable Secure Boot; and even if you want to leave Secure Boot enabled, you can do so and install Fedora 18 or Ubuntu 12.10 without changes, or other distributions if you're willing and knowledgeable enough to jump through some extra hoops.

Unfortunately, the BIOS-to-UEFI transition we're undergoing is not going smoothly. This fact has numerous causes, though, not the one or two (often conspiratorial) causes that too many people like to fixate upon. Contributing factors to problems include the following:

  • Firmware bugs
  • Secure Boot (or the fact that Secure Boot support is rare in Linux, depending on your point of view)
  • Weak EFI support in many Linux distributions (Mint included)
  • Inconsistent EFI user interfaces between products
  • Poor user understanding of EFI
  • Poor EFI documentation on the Web
  • BIOS assumptions embedded in decades of documentation and user experience

Those last three could arguably be wrapped up into one bigger and more important cause of problems.

I don't claim this list is comprehensive, but one item that does not belong on the list is "conspiracy to exclude Linux." That item might be on Microsoft's to-do list, but it's not a significant factor in EFI as it's being handled today. I'd say it's important to keep Hanlon's Razor in mind:

Hanlon's Razor wrote:Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.


Thanks for your input. I am no expert but within my capabilities I have tried to install Ubuntu 13.04 and LM Nadia alongside Windows, within Windows by shrinking "C" and wiping Windows altogether, in Secure Boot and Legacy which as you know disables Secure Boot automatically. Hours and hours (days/weeks) of frustration, all to no avail and today back to square one. Until someone comes up with a workable solution I'll be stuck with this laptop as I bought it: with Windows 8, period. And BTW Windows 8 is crap, it keeps crashing and restarting, usual stuff. How fantastic AND WHAT A DELIGHT it is to run LM (solid as a rock) on my desktop without any problems WHATSOEVER. I hadn't touched MS for years until I acquired this laptop, intended for Linux, which has given me grief from day one. I'll never forget this one...
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby srs5694 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:23 pm

riki wrote:I am no expert but within my capabilities I have tried to install Ubuntu 13.04 and LM Nadia alongside Windows, within Windows by shrinking "C" and wiping Windows altogether


Installing Linux "within Windows" makes sense if you're talking about installing within a virtual machine, but somehow I don't think that's what you mean. It could also mean you're using Mint4Win, but that's incompatible with EFI, so any such attempt is a dead end. I suspect you mean something other than "within Windows."

riki wrote:in Secure Boot and Legacy which as you know disables Secure Boot automatically.


Please review the first two sentences I posted to this thread:

srs5694 wrote:Many people make the mistake of conflating UEFI with Secure Boot. The latter is one feature of the former, and an optional one at that!


Your best bet is usually to leave EFI/UEFI enabled (that is, to not install in legacy/BIOS mode) but to disable Secure Boot. Understanding the simple distinction between EFI and Secure Boot is fundamental to working with these systems.

In fact, please go back and re-read that entire first post of mine. I asked for a number of clarifications and additional information, none of which you provided. If you can't be bothered to provide clarifying diagnostic information when others ask for it, you won't get much help!
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:07 pm

I asked for a number of clarifications and additional information, none of which you provided. If you can't be bothered to provide clarifying diagnostic information when others ask for it, you won't get much help!


You've lost me there! I have reread your post and can't see anything about "clarifying diagnostic info". Asked where??? I'll read again tomorrow, it's getting late...
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby srs5694 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:35 pm

riki wrote:
I asked for a number of clarifications and additional information, none of which you provided. If you can't be bothered to provide clarifying diagnostic information when others ask for it, you won't get much help!


You've lost me there! I have reread your post and can't see anything about "clarifying diagnostic info". Asked where??? I'll read again tomorrow, it's getting late...


Note the following (emphasis added):

srs5694 wrote:
riki wrote:The LM14 DVD claimed half the 750GB HD leaving the other half to W8 but then a message came up on the screen saying that the installation could not go ahead because of something referring to the kernel.
I'm afraid this is inadequate detail to help you debug the problem. Most likely it's not related to EFI or Secure Boot, though. If you want help, you must report the exact wording of error messages. If it's verbose, cut-and-paste it into your post or include a screen shot.


srs5694 wrote:
riki wrote:After reading many posts re W8 new attempt to deny other OSs from installing on "their" machines,
Without knowing the posts to which you refer I can't be positive, but I suspect you're referring to Secure Boot problems.


In other words: Post links to the posts! (OTOH, this is a very minor point.)

srs5694 wrote:Not without more details. Try booting a Linux emergency disk and posting the output of:
Code: Select all
sudo parted -l

...or a screen shot of GParted acting on the disk in question.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby riki on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:14 am

First of all, apologies srs5694, I misread your post and did not realize that you were referring to your very first post. Anyhow, it is now all academic and there is no point in spending more time on this issue. Pointless trying to find a solution when there ain't one, although at one stage I thought there was one, hence my attempts to run Linux on this laptop, either as a dual system or by first getting rid of W8. Thanks again for your help.
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Re: LM14 won't install on Windows 8 laptop

Postby srs5694 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:12 pm

riki wrote:Pointless trying to find a solution when there ain't one


The fact that you've been unable to find the solution is not proof that one doesn't exist. Speaking as somebody who's developed for EFI, who's installed Linux on several EFI-based computers, and who has helped countless others install Linux on EFI computers, I feel confident that there is a way to install Linux on your system, with or without Windows. If you expect to get help on this matter, though, you must post appropriate diagnostic information when it's requested.
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