Ditch all except LMDE

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Ditch all except LMDE

Postby Drake on Sun May 12, 2013 1:58 pm

Having all these different versions of Linux Mint is just creating more work and confusion. I think it would be better to not try to be all things to all people and stick with what has the most potential, that's not going to be Linux Mint being Ubuntu based.

LMDE with a choice of desktop at install would be nice and LMDE is no more difficult to install or use than Ubuntu, remember Ubuntu is based on Debian same as LMDE is, Ubuntu was not the original source, Debian was and Ubuntu is a Linux distro in competition with Linux Mint for being the most popular Linux Desktop offering, so yeah have nothing to do with Ubuntu.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby xenopeek on Sun May 12, 2013 2:49 pm

That's been suggested tons of times, also the other way around (ditch LMDE). The developers don't share your view on this and continue to value Ubuntu as a strong and suitable package base for Linux Mint. Last year the number of distributions was cut (Fluxbox and LXDE from Linux Mint and Xfce from LMDE), which as shared by the developers was needed to let them focus more on quality and integration for the other distributions. Given that the majority of users are using Linux Mint with the Ubuntu package base, ditching that and only offering LMDE isn't likely to happen. It would alienate a large group of Linux Mint users.

We don't know what will happen tomorrow of course. There might be a Linux Mint with an openSUSE or Arch Linux package base, but for now I don't think the developers will shift away from Ubuntu. But if you prefer LMDE, good for you :wink: That's why it's there, because not everybody wants the Ubuntu package base--and vice versa...
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby Drake on Sun May 12, 2013 7:53 pm

xenopeek wrote:That's been suggested tons of times, also the other way around (ditch LMDE). The developers don't share your view on this and continue to value Ubuntu as a strong and suitable package base for Linux Mint. Last year the number of distributions was cut (Fluxbox and LXDE from Linux Mint and Xfce from LMDE), which as shared by the developers was needed to let them focus more on quality and integration for the other distributions. Given that the majority of users are using Linux Mint with the Ubuntu package base, ditching that and only offering LMDE isn't likely to happen. It would alienate a large group of Linux Mint users.


There was Redhat... hugely popular as far as percentage of Linux users went, then that became not so popular.
Fedora also had it's 10 minutes of limelight
Ubuntu... that's on the wane now if we believe various bloggers, magazines, distrowatch etc
SuSE increasing in popularity.

Linux Mint very much increasing in popularity, so maybe the question as to why is not just one aspect like ease of use, because Ubuntu is just as easy for newbies (until problems develop), but may well be Unity. That's where the danger is for Linux Mint, if Ubuntu dropped Unity and replaced it with something really innovative, nice looking and yet faster.

xenopeek wrote:We don't know what will happen tomorrow of course. There might be a Linux Mint with an openSUSE or Arch Linux package base, but for now I don't think the developers will shift away from Ubuntu. But if you prefer LMDE, good for you :wink: That's why it's there, because not everybody wants the Ubuntu package base--and vice versa...


SuSE is doing well with it's create your own respin of SuSE, it still has SuSE plastered over it so at a glance easy to tell what it is, but I think many people like their own custom versions instead of having a ton of applications included, some of which they will never use, So Linux Mint should think about having a similar offering also.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby craig10x on Sun May 12, 2013 9:27 pm

While Mint was and is very popular...ubuntu is not on the wane by any stretch of the imagination...and ubuntu (like it or not...i like it) is the ONLY linux distro that has the "might" to attract more and more non-linux users to the fold, as it were...also, Clem is very fond of using ubuntu as mint's base...
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby Drake on Mon May 13, 2013 5:31 am

craig10x wrote:While Mint was and is very popular...ubuntu is not on the wane by any stretch of the imagination...and ubuntu (like it or not...i like it) is the ONLY linux distro that has the "might" to attract more and more non-linux users to the fold, as it were...also, Clem is very fond of using ubuntu as mint's base...


I disagree about Ubuntu, it's bloatware, slow, drab, boring and the latest release has done nothing to change that, yes it has more unique code than LMDE on top of the Debian but LMDE is faster, nicer, easier for those coming from Windows to get used to and lastly LMDE has "Linux" in its name.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby craig10x on Mon May 13, 2013 9:46 am

@drake: Obviously, Clem doesn't agree with you on that...otherwise, he would not be using it as the base for mint....also i am currently running 13.04 and i don't find any of the things you mentioned to be the case...and Ubuntu is huge and it's the one that attracts newcomers to linux...in fact, many who try ubuntu for the first time don't know from linux, distros, etc etc....but once they try ubuntu if they like it, many then start to learn all about the linux world. including all the variations that are available...then some will stay with ubuntu and others will try something a bit different, like mint for example...

I don't think you are going to see Clem switch main mint to LMDE...even though i am sure you would hope he would...
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby samriggs on Mon May 13, 2013 8:06 pm

I came to mint from ubuntu when I first started my abandonment from windows, if it wasn't for ubuntu I would of never known about mint back then, the only word I knew about linux was ubuntu and fedora and it was the scary geeks system :lol: little did I know back then.
I use LMDE and love it, so does the wife, the Ma on the other uses xubuntu and loves it.
I think it's each persons choice what they want, personally, even though I don't use it, I think having both it's a great idea, for those who love using ppa the main edition is great for them, and a lot noobs especially use ppa's quite a bit because it's all over the place and easy to find to well written as to how use ppa's, a lot of simple copy/paste into the terminal that my own Ma could do.
Although I find LMDE easy to use a lot of noobs don't, some do some don't, and a lot of well experience users love ubuntu base as well.
So if it's possible to have both then great :D nothing wrong with that, but a lot good with it, as long as either doesn't suffer because of it.
Personally my choice is debian based over unity based and always has been, but a ton of folks like the ubuntu based and what Clem and the gang has done to it makes it a good distro, I'm also sure if ubuntu changes things again Mint will adjust itself as usual like when unity and gnome 3 first came out, which is why we have cinnamon now, other wise the majority of us would still be using gnome 2. Now we have Cinnamon and mate with the of the ppa world or the debian world.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby Drake on Mon May 13, 2013 8:11 pm

craig10x wrote:@drake: Obviously, Clem doesn't agree with you on that...otherwise, he would not be using it as the base for mint....


I'm not privy to Mr. Clem's thoughts on the matter but if it's like you say then how comes we have LMDE which is based directly upon Debian?

craig10x wrote:also i am currently running 13.04 and i don't find any of the things you mentioned to be the case...and Ubuntu is huge and it's the one that attracts newcomers to linux...in fact, many who try ubuntu for the first time don't know from linux, distros, etc etc....but once they try ubuntu if they like it, many then start to learn all about the linux world. including all the variations that are available...then some will stay with ubuntu and others will try something a bit different, like mint for example...


Oh come on Ubuntu's is almost as slow as windows and the 13.04 I installed for an hour really was no big improvement, a few minor cosmetic tweaks, social network integration, more commercial, reference donations link in the UFW, privacy issues, Unity, the terrible package manager, updates everyday, and Amazon... ugh.

craig10x wrote:I don't think you are going to see Clem switch main mint to LMDE...even though i am sure you would hope he would...


He will do what he wants to do, putting your eggs into two baskets might seem wise but could also turn out to be a disaster as people don't like change and want stability by nature. The fact that Ubuntu can be made into a respin easily makes Linux Mint (Ubuntu) pointless.

Debian however is not elegant out of the box and offers more potential.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby craig10x on Mon May 13, 2013 8:28 pm

Clem doesn't work on LMDE...nor the kubuntu based kde version and so forth...he works on the ubuntu based one only as far as i can determine...
Direct debian is not wildly superior to an ubuntu base....the stable version is far behind ubuntu in packages and the web page rendering is not that great...
wonder why web pages looks so nice on mint? You can thank ubuntu for that (they apply excellent patches that make it so good and which debian itself refuses to adopt)....

Only reason LMDE has very good web page rendering is because Clem has them apply the...UBUNTU patching for that...otherwise, it wouldn't look any better then debian does...
Last edited by craig10x on Mon May 13, 2013 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby zerozero on Mon May 13, 2013 8:31 pm

craig10x wrote:Clem doesn't work on LMDE...nor the kubuntu based kde version and so forth...he works on the ubuntu based one only as far as i can determine...

Clem works on LinuxMint and LMDE is part of LinuxMint; you are wrong.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby craig10x on Mon May 13, 2013 8:46 pm

Well, sure it incorporates Clem's mint modifications from mint main edition, but it looks like Fred is the developer that works directly on it, right?
If so, that is what i meant...

Anyway, i really can't understand why ubuntu often gets bashed on mint forums when mint is based on it and on the ubuntu forums there just doesn't seem to be the same degree of bashing toward linux mint...

Both are excellent distros, but some prefer one over the other...I've used both over my years of being involved with linux....started with ubuntu, switched to mint for quite some time, now back on ubuntu because i like it's "mac like" unity interface with global menu (like mac) and dash search that reminds me of spotlight on the mac.

After i left windows, i spent a year with the mac before discovering linux and have a fondness for it, so i can appreciate the desktop of ubuntu...and i don't find anything slow about it all...unity has had tons of improvements in 13.04....

I also like a lower panel and slab style menu like mint has too...

But i still think that Linux Mint will likely stay on the ubuntu base and Clem seems to like it a lot more then some of the users here, that is for sure :lol:
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby passerby on Mon May 13, 2013 11:07 pm

craig10x wrote:Anyway, i really can't understand why ubuntu often gets bashed on mint forums when mint is based on it and on the ubuntu forums there just doesn't seem to be the same degree of bashing toward linux mint...


A lot of "ubuntu bashing" I see is to do with the direction it's heading in and changes made rather than the underlying system.
eg. The big move to Unity, the changes to Nautilus... the stuff that makes people move to distros like Mint.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby samriggs on Mon May 13, 2013 11:50 pm

passerby wrote:
craig10x wrote:Anyway, i really can't understand why ubuntu often gets bashed on mint forums when mint is based on it and on the ubuntu forums there just doesn't seem to be the same degree of bashing toward linux mint...


A lot of "ubuntu bashing" I see is to do with the direction it's heading in and changes made rather than the underlying system.
eg. The big move to Unity, the changes to Nautilus... the stuff that makes people move to distros like Mint.


Unity is what originally bought me here, but if it wasn't for unity I'd probably still be there and never feel the need to move, so in that sense I was thankful, it lead me to try quite a few distros and settle in mint. and yup I admit it, I also did my share of ubuntu bashing when unity first came out myself. I need my desktop to be messy, chaotic, and a total disaster zone to be happy, unity, when it first came out took that pleasure away from me, mint gave it back to me, I'm happy, :D
So in a sense we can thankful for unity's disaster at the very beginning it created a big hole that a lot of other distros filled, but mint seemed to take the bull by the horns and create a great environment out of two possible tablet looking creations. Necessity is the mother of invention.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby Orbmiser on Tue May 14, 2013 12:29 am

Yep was a Big Ubuntu user 2006-08 starting with Dapper and up thru the upgrades.
And finally left to lack of mature apps in Photo editing as hated Gimp. And lack of Video editing.

Decided as had a slow down in new clients and thought to give it a whirl and see where Ubuntu was going in Nov. 2012.
I was aghast & shocked and had mini-mal seizures :shock: due to Unity.

Not to bash so much as shocked. Then did some back reading and saw the commercial aim of Shuttleworth.
And see that they were no longer concerned about listening to users or emphasis on Desktop.

I find that totally against the Open Source of the collaboration of user's & developers working together for the benefit of all.

So took me about 15 mins of googling and Mint popped right up at the top. Been a Great experience as Clem's Team listen to us and try to give what the user wants. Not some Millionaires Vision to commercialize and make money all the while ignoring the desktop user needs & wants.

As to "Ditch All" attitude is kind of arrogant and short-sighted thinking as their way is the only right and just way.
Which is totally against the whole Open Source variety for all. And the Linux Open Bazaar affair of allowing the user to stroll among the distro's and decide what feels & fits right for them.

And that attitude is ingrained into a Stance & Belief by Microsoft!
As they Love that kind of "One Ring to Rule Them" affair.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby craig10x on Tue May 14, 2013 12:49 am

I enjoyed reading all your feedback...actually...
Though i should mention that really is just a dock...which happens to be on the left instead of the bottom :wink:
So, if one likes docks then they would probably like unity...and i got use to the idea of the "global menu" and "dash" style search from my time with the mac...

Also, many who initially hated the unity concept eventually came around and warmed up to it...(that actually happened to me...well, didn't hate it but wasn't initially super crazy about it either)...now, i like it quite a bit...and the amazon lens can be shut off in the privacy settings, so a non-issue, really...

Thing of it is, Ubuntu DOES attract a lot of newcomers to linux...and once they discover it, then they can explore if they choose, the other distros/desktop environments they can play around with and consider...so you must give Shuttleworth credit for that...

In my case, i am flexible...and i also like the mint-style of lower panel and slab style menu (ex: cinnamon) and that is what attracted me originally to mint (i didn't like the 2 panel with fan out search set up in ubuntu no matter how much i used it)...

I like 13.04, though i certainly will be looking at mint 15....perhaps it can sway me back :lol:

But as far as Mint switching to LMDE exclusively, i just don't get the sense that Clem wants to go in that direction...as xenopeek pointed out in his previous posting here...
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby tdockery97 on Tue May 14, 2013 1:04 am

craig10x wrote:But as far as Mint switching to LMDE exclusively, i just don't get the sense that Clem wants to go in that direction...as xenopeek pointed out in his previous posting here...

Well, I think we know that he won't. Clem has stated many times that the Ubuntu-based Main Edition is the Mint flagship, and always will be.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby MALsPa on Tue May 14, 2013 2:09 am

craig10x wrote:Anyway, i really can't understand why ubuntu often gets bashed on mint forums when mint is based on it and on the ubuntu forums there just doesn't seem to be the same degree of bashing toward linux mint...

Both are excellent distros, but some prefer one over the other...I've used both over my years of being involved with linux....started with ubuntu, switched to mint for quite some time, now back on ubuntu because i like it's "mac like" unity interface with global menu (like mac) and dash search that reminds me of spotlight on the mac.

After i left windows, i spent a year with the mac before discovering linux and have a fondness for it, so i can appreciate the desktop of ubuntu...and i don't find anything slow about it all...unity has had tons of improvements in 13.04....


Lol. I like Unity and I haven't used anything from Apple since... wow, since the 90s, I think.
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Re: Ditch all except LMDE

Postby Drake on Tue May 14, 2013 6:54 am

Orbmiser wrote:As to "Ditch All" attitude is kind of arrogant and short-sighted thinking as their way is the only right and just way.
Which is totally against the whole Open Source variety for all. And the Linux Open Bazaar affair of allowing the user to stroll among the distro's and decide what feels & fits right for them.

And that attitude is ingrained into a Stance & Belief by Microsoft!
As they Love that kind of "One Ring to Rule Them" affair.
.


The ditch all (except for LMDE) attitude may appear arrogant but is based on logic, unlike many of you I don't even use Windows, or have it installed, however Microsoft has got some things right in the past and Linux Developers would do well to take note of what those aspects are if they want to attract Window users to adopt the Linux Desktop.

The idea that having a thousand and one Linux distros is a good thing I believe is just confusing, I'm sure Linus Torvalds would prefer Linux to be known for speed, stability, innovation etc rather than reinventing the wheel over and over again and the result being a lot of Linux distros becoming slower and slower with each release.

I like the idea of customization but not the Linux Open Bazaar that you mentioned.
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