Linux Mint in jeopardy

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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby Macmeister on Fri May 17, 2013 11:28 pm

Brahim wrote:Debian is already part of Mint http://www.linuxmint.com/release.php?id=14 :D


I meant for their primary build! :wink:
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby dee. on Sat May 18, 2013 8:37 am

craig10x wrote:@xenopeek, sam riggs and martymint: a big +1 to you all....
I'm afraid dee will never "get it" :wink: :lol:

It doesn't grab keystrokes...it is simply a search...like as if you searched on amazon for something....it finds items that relate to things you look for on the dash search...sure it shows little images....how else could it display it in the dash? not as text obviously...they are little ad pictures...it's sort of like targeted ads you see on your web browser...works much in the same fashion...


Well first of all, you're being very defensive and unnecessarily hostile. This often happens when I talk to "true Ubuntu fans" who are so attached to Ubuntu that they are unable to think rationally, so whenever anyone questions or points out any flaws in Ubuntu, they become increasingly hostile... please try to avoid this behaviour so we can all have a cordial and rational discussion here.

Secondly, Ubuntu does grab keystrokes. Whatever you type on the dash is sent to Ubuntu's servers and then to their third-party advertisers, so if you go to the dash and type "dwarf ****" your search term will get sent to Ubuntu servers. If you type in a sensitive file name, it will also be sent.

Ads do not belong in the application launcher. The main UI of the operating system should be free of such clutter.

And you can either remove it in the software center in about 1 minute (it's called unity-shopping lens) OR go to privacy and turn off all internet access on the dash completely...so it is a total non issue...frankly if one uses ubuntu and doesn't send an occasional donation, they should leave it on, just to help out the development of ubuntu a bit...


It's not a non-issue just because you don't care about it. It's still turned on by default. Think of someone who is using windows 8, gets tired of all the adware and crap of dealing with microsoft, then decides to try Ubuntu... and what does they see first? They see ads when they try to launch programs. Some of these people will turn back and never try Linux again after that.

Also, keep in mind this is the dash search only...not when you doing various other activities on your computer within the ubuntu os...
Frankly, i rarely even use the dash search...the best way to use the unity dock is to put all your favorite and most used apps on the dock for quick "1 click" access and then you will only use the search for those rarely used ones...


Cute, but this sounds like an excuse. "Oh, but you don't have to use the dash..." Except when you do. The dock can only hold so many icons comfortably, until it becomes so long that it's a pain to find things there. Desktop icons require you to go to the desktop, you can't use them with a simple 1-click action. What point is there in having an application launcher, if you have to make excuses for why you don't have to use it? Wasn't this dash supposed to be a great super-feature that makes Ubuntu attractive, not something that you have to sweep under the rug?

I (and most people) don't access their FILES from the dash, they go into nautilus directly...

Get it now, dee? (i doubt it) :wink:


If by "getting it" you mean "agrees with your viewpoint" then no. I like to think with my own brain, not just sheepishly follow what Shuttleworth or Bacon say on their blogs.

Also, I'd like to point out that your behaviour is not constructive, there's no reason to be hostile here. Consider also that when people become defensive in a debate, it can also be a sign that they themselves can see that their argument is weak... maybe your subconscious is trying to tell you something?
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby dee. on Sat May 18, 2013 8:43 am

catweazel wrote:
dee. wrote:First of all, please use paragraphs.

Do you have anything better to do than pass comment on completely unimportant attributes of someone's writing style?

Not everyone is a Tolstoy or Proust.
dee. wrote:This is not even considering, that Ubuntu is placing itself separate from the rest of the desktop Linux ecosystem.

You can't get the language right yourself so you've got no place to correct anyone.


Note that you're quoting about a 10% part of the post I wrote, getting attached to that one part, ignoring all the rest of the content. Maybe it's actually you who doesn't have anything worthwhile to contribute to the discussion? The person I was telling that had no problem with the remark, there was no need for you to play white knight for him.

Use of paragraphs is not unimportant, trying to read huge walls of text with no paragraph breaks is really annoying and makes it hard to follow the discussion. I never complained about language or grammar, which makes your entire post sort of silly and childish.
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby craig10x on Sat May 18, 2013 9:46 am

Sounds to me like you just have a lot of sour grapes about ubuntu, so there is no way i could convince you otherwise, in a hostile way or a gentle way, so no point in my going any further with you....we will just have to agree to disagree...

I don't use the dash search to search for files, i use nautilus for that...and the dash to me (and probably for most ubuntu users) is simply a place to go to ocassionally find some programs that don't use very often...

Why would i want to keep jumping to the dash to bring up an app? that's a waste of time....if i want say "pidgin"...it's on there on the unity dock...1 click...there it is...why would i sit there and stop typing into the dash to get it? maybe you would...i would not...

I use to kde for a while and was on kubuntu and used the "kick off menu" (which i liked by the way)...i did the same thing there, pinned my favorites to kick off...i wasn't going to keep typing into it's search bar every time i wanted to bring up a program...that would be a big waste of time...
And if i wanted a file, i brought up dolphin (it's file manager)...

You say things like "ubuntu doesn't contribute to upstream" which is a lot of bs...that in itself shows how much you dislike the distro...

And what would a newcomer think when he would see those little amazon pictures of items in the dash search? They must be sponsored by Amazon and i guess they are helping to bring me this beautiful free operating system...and they'd be right :)

And once they would join the ubuntu forums, as a newbie...if they did wonder if there was a way to turn that feature off, they would probably ask and we would tell them...sure, very easy...

Lastly, if you are so strongly against ubuntu, you should use debian...not linux mint main which is ubuntu...sure with changes, but it IS ubuntu there even if you try to pretend that it is not...it's like saying: i'll take advantage of ubuntu to the extent i want, even if my result is more to my liking (like mint)...in principal, you should not want to be associated with ubuntu in any shape, manner or form...
Last edited by craig10x on Sat May 18, 2013 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby dee. on Sat May 18, 2013 10:12 am

craig10x wrote:Sounds to me like you just have a lot of sour grapes about ubuntu, so there is no way i could convince you otherwise, in a hostile way or a gentle way, so no point in my going any further with you....we will just have to agree to disagree...


That's kind of a funny way of saying "sorry I was being such a tool", but ok, I'll take it.

I don't use the dash search to search for files, i use nautilus for that...and the dash to me (and probably for most ubuntu users) is simply a place to go to ocassionally find some programs that don't use very often...


So then, you agree that the dash is useless? That it's not a good feature to have in an operating system?

Why would i want to keep jumping to the dash to bring up an app? that's a waste of time....if i want say "pidgin"...it's on there on the unity dock...1 click...there it is...why would i sit there and stop typing into the dash to get it? maybe you would...i would not...


So you can pin everything you have on your computer on your dock? Well, if you only ever use 6-8 programs I guess that works for you... but I know from experience that the sidebar gets full very quickly whenever you have any more programs that you need to use. And let's not even go to games... what about when you have 20-30 games installed, how do you fit all of them in the sidebar? (Again, the only solution is a 3rd-party app (which "sort of works"), you seem to need quite a lot of those to make Unity even halfway usable...)

You may think that the dash is not meant as a central feature of the UI, that it's only something you use when you absolutely have to (and otherwise avoid). However, this is obviously not the way Canonical sees things. The way they have been advertising their "dash" is like this huge "convergence" (and a dozen other buzzwords) thingy that brings everything you need in a UI in the same place, where you can find everything you need, do your shopping, laundry and errands all in the same box... they're marketing it like the Swiss Army Knife of UI... mixing up local and online.

I used to kde for a while and was on kubuntu and used the "kick off menu" (which i liked by the way)...i did the same thing there, pinned my favorites to kick off...i wasn't going to keep typing into it's search bar every time i wanted to bring up a program...that would be a big waste of time...


Yeah, so what?

You say things like "ubuntu doesn't contribute to upstream" which is a lot of bs...that in itself shows how much you dislike the distro...


Well they don't, really... not in any meaningful capacity. You don't have to take my word for it, go ask Debian developers, they've publicly complained many times about Ubuntu not contributing their changes back, and when they try to contribute, they often do it as a single splash of code that ends up being rejected because it's so messy...

Of course if you just want to be anal and overly literal about it, you can go and find some instances where Canonical has contributed things upstream, good for you, but that still doesn't refute the fact that Canonical hasn't contributed upstream as much as it should have, considering that they owe their entire existence to Debian.

Lastly, if you were so strongly against ubuntu, you should use debian...not linux mint main which is ubuntu...sure with changes, but it IS ubuntu there even if you try to pretend that it is not...it's like saying: i'll take advantage of ubuntu to the extent i want, even if my result is more to my liking (like mint)...in principal, you should not want to be associated with ubuntu in any shape, manner or form...


Mint is not Ubuntu, it's a lot more than that. Mint is like taking all the good parts from Ubuntu, and throwing away all the crap. If there wasn't a need for an OS like Mint, it wouldn't exist and be so popular. Saying that "Mint is Ubuntu" is the same as saying "Ubuntu is Debian". Neither is true.

Furthermore, Mint is not dependent on Ubuntu, Clem himself has stated that if Ubuntu goes away, Mint will still go on, just rebasing itself on something else. A Debian-based version of Mint already exists, anyway, so that'd probably be the most likely option.

Also, you don't get to say what my principles are. What OS I use has nothing to do with this discussion and doesn't invalidate the factual merits of anything I've said. Even if I only used FreeDOS, that would have no effect on the validity of my arguments.

I use Mint because it's a great and functional OS that respects my freedom and privacy. I don't use Ubuntu and don't support Canonical (anymore) because they no longer respect my freedom or privacy, and because they are going in a direction that I feel is harmful to the desktop Linux ecosystem (what they're doing with Mir).
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby craig10x on Sat May 18, 2013 10:23 am

Mint is ubuntu in a modified form...no point in my discussing this with you further as you attitude seems to be: don't give me any facts, my mind is already made up....i will leave this thread discussion now and let others try to fruitlessly discuss this with you... :roll:
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby dee. on Sat May 18, 2013 11:20 am

craig10x wrote:Mint is ubuntu in a modified form...no point in my discussing this with you further as you attitude seems to be: don't give me any facts, my mind is already made up....i will leave this thread discussion now and let others try to fruitlessly discuss this with you... :roll:


Nice way of backing out without actually addressing anything... Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that "Mint is Ubuntu" as much as "Ubuntu is Debian". Both are based on and derived from another distro. That is not the same thing as "being the same".
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby samriggs on Sat May 18, 2013 4:43 pm

dee. wrote:
catweazel wrote:
dee. wrote:First of all, please use paragraphs.

Do you have anything better to do than pass comment on completely unimportant attributes of someone's writing style?

Not everyone is a Tolstoy or Proust.
dee. wrote:This is not even considering, that Ubuntu is placing itself separate from the rest of the desktop Linux ecosystem.

You can't get the language right yourself so you've got no place to correct anyone.


Note that you're quoting about a 10% part of the post I wrote, getting attached to that one part, ignoring all the rest of the content. Maybe it's actually you who doesn't have anything worthwhile to contribute to the discussion? The person I was telling that had no problem with the remark, there was no need for you to play white knight for him.

Use of paragraphs is not unimportant, trying to read huge walls of text with no paragraph breaks is really annoying and makes it hard to follow the discussion. I never complained about language or grammar, which makes your entire post sort of silly and childish.


ahh actually I was just being nice about your arrogance, I dealt with quite a few people like this before and the best way is just to ignore them, and it did come across like that, if that's not what you meant then cool if that's what you meant to be then hey what can I say.
not everyone will conform to your way of wanting things done, that's why we are the human race, so again sorry for the non paragraphs, I leave the typos to the wife, shes better at it.
As far as catweazel saying something I tried to be nice about is commendable of him, the world needs more catweazle's to stop the madness on the planet.
Do I need it? heck no, I've dealt with this kind of behavior before it's nothing new to me, usually I just ignore it because it's pretty much a waste of my time, you are what you are, so be it, it doesn't really matter to me.
If it was that annoying to you, you always have the free choice NOT to read it also.
Just thought I would clear that point up.
Going back to talking funny and writing funny :lol:
good thing variables class names don't need spell check or I'd be up the creek.
over and out.
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby MartyMint on Sat May 18, 2013 6:18 pm

dee, I actually agree with you on many of your points.

It's the "does not contribute meaningfully" part I'll take exception with.


For everyone saying "it's free...stop complaining", there's a social contract that applies to the common, in respect to ideas, discussions and participation.
No, it's not "illegal" to alter the core functionality of FOSS...but there's an implied agreement that Linux and free (as in beer) software is participatory.
That's a philisophical arguemnet.
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby catweazel on Sat May 18, 2013 7:50 pm

dee. wrote:ignoring all the rest of the content.

I will structure my posts in any way I desire. You have no say in the matter.
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Postby Zorba on Sat May 18, 2013 8:49 pm

OK guys this is going too far :D No need to fight. Let's call it misunderstanding :D Peace out :D

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