N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby HoppityBob on Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:50 am

Because it's an attack on the very basics of democracy, e.g. the assumption that every citizen is innocent unless proven guilty, the right to privacy and so on. It's already being abused, staff spying on personal acquaintances, the nsa giving info to the dea who then lie to courts about their evidence, spying on companies and politicians and dissidents, planting malware on pcs when saying if it was done to them it's a declaration of war or a crime. Degrading security and protocols making it easier for your bank account to be hacked, who's to say it's not some nsa contractor with a drug problem that's just cleaned you out.

Not to mention the ramifications of potential blackmail and abuse, ever hear of Hoover and Mccarthy? There are so many laws that everyone breaks one sometime, how's that gonna work for you when you decide to protest against some government policy and they know everything about you?
Or twenty years down the line when an oppressive government gets into power and decides they don't like a certain subset of people, say those of a certain religion or sexual persuasion. How are you going to escape then?
Have a look at the movie The Lives of Others or read 1984 and Kafka. Read some history and think of how much worse the ****, the Italian fascists, or the Spanish could have been with this sort of info. Or Pinochet, the Soviet purges, the Khmer Rouge, Rwanda, Yugoslavia, the list is endless.
This info is already being abused as is the likes of the US constitution and don't think history doesn't repeat.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby daveinuk on Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:25 am

Whats the big deal? Someone explain to me why I should be worried?


Apathy could be your greatest enemy, when you're not bothered about losing your right to freedom, or your every move being logged and spied on, you might have already handed over your rights to them on a plate.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby Orbmiser on Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:23 pm

daveinuk wrote:
Whats the big deal? Someone explain to me why I should be worried?


Apathy could be your greatest enemy, when you're not bothered about losing your right to freedom, or your every move being logged and spied on, you might have already handed over your rights to them on a plate.


Unfortunately way too many think like that. "What's the Big Deal?","I Don't See the Problem" "I'm Not Doing anything Illegal so Not a Problem"
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby helterskelter on Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:09 pm

Please explain to me what the problem is then! If I put nothing on the net that would cause me a problem or embaressment what they gonna do,read my mind?
Even without your pc and the internet 'they' could find out just about anything about you by other means ,if 'they' felt the need,if you give 'them' reason too. Come on.

The bigger fish are what they are after,the people who screw ordinary decent peoples lives up,not you and me.
Security cameras are a similar thing,'they' can watch you walking down the street,shopping,driving your car etc. wheres the fuss about them?
As long as they deter and catch the bad guys let 'them' get on with it.

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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby passerby on Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:31 pm

I reckon stuff like this is a good enough reason: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... hes/67864/
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby daveinuk on Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:40 pm

helterskelter wrote:Please explain to me what the problem is then! TLDR:

eddie


Oh My . . . . . . if you STILL can't see the problem of giving AWAY your freedom (despite being innocent) then please read more so you don't inadvertantly give away mine, thanks.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby TechGuyAndrew on Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:46 pm

helterskelter wrote:Whats the big deal? Someone explain to me why I should be worried?
I really dont get all this conspiracy hooha.I think theres an awful lot of folks out their that need to see a shrink-Paranoia?

eddie


Okay, look. Do you want the government looking over your shoulder at everything you ever do online? What the NSA does is illegal and downright nosey and don't think that they're just doing it in the US, they're trying to track all internet data from most developed countries in the world.

Personally, I want to keep some of my information private. I'm not saying that I'm doing things that I'm not supposed to online. It's just that I don't like the idea of the NSA being able to (or at least attempting to :wink: ) track what I do online. This may not be a big deal to some people now, but it can come back and bite you later.

It comes down to this, does the NSA really need to know what you're getting Grandma for Christmas, or, when you last read your favorite ebook?
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby helterskelter on Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:21 pm

It comes down to this, does the NSA really need to know what you're getting Grandma for Christmas, or, when you last read your favorite ebook?


Oh come on! Why on Earth would they even bother to ,if they had the resources,to look at emails containing that sort of information from any old joe bloggs? PLease,put you brain power to good use and think a bit more!

Surface mail/letters,if they wanted to they could look at them ,read them if they wanted to-I dont see anyone getting flappy about that possibility.
They only look at emails of those that they have good reason to. All emails are electronicly 'locked up' until the need arises because a 'flag' has been raised that arouses suspicion and could laed to a possible crime or security breach. Had the werewithall been available at the time then 9/11 may have been thwarted and the whole Afghanistan thing avoided.

Once a flag has been raised special permission is required to release the appropriate emails from the locker and be studied,I'm pretty sure it wont be anything to do with Grandmas Christmes pressy.

I'm quite happily going about my life knowing that someone is watching the bad guys,and not having the slightest bit of interest in my daily life.
I do however worry about paranoids. :roll:

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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby passerby on Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:02 pm

But you're not worried about corrupted individuals within the NSA? The organization itself may have its supposed reasons, but what's stopping those with the power at their fingertips? Cases like NSA employees abusing their power to spy on friends and family.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby helterskelter on Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:09 pm

But you're not worried about corrupted individuals within the NSA? The organization itself may have its supposed reasons, but what's stopping those with the power at their fingertips? Cases like NSA employees abusing their power to spy on friends and family.


Apply that line of thought to the Police,CIA and FBI and even the Government itself. What you wanna do shut them down?

I would rather take my chances (being a decent sort of guy) with few bent officials than the whole Ratpack thats out there.

Another anology, how many people in the U.S. own firearms. How many people die or get maimed for life in shooting accidents?
So how come you have not Banned the private use of firearms?

I CAN understand where you are all coming from but please give it a bit of non hysterical thought-THEY are not after YOU,THEY are after THEM.
A little accidental invasion of privacy is a small price to pay to prevent the likes of 9/11 etc.

What has the ordinary guy in the street got that THEY want-NOWT.(except your TAX dollars/pounds/yen/euros :( )

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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby passerby on Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:44 pm

Not looking to get into a political argument here or anything (I'm an IT guy, not a law student), but fwiw:
helterskelter wrote:Another anology, how many people in the U.S. own firearms. How many people die or get maimed for life in shooting accidents?
So how come you have not Banned the private use of firearms?

Because I don't have that power :lol:
And yes, I would. I believe they should. Though I don't live in the U.S. anyway.

helterskelter wrote:Apply that line of thought to the Police,CIA and FBI and even the Government itself. What you wanna do shut them down?

I think comparing the NSA to the police is a bit of a stretch. Insulting, if I were a cop. A group founded to spy on its own citizens is comparable to those who risk their necks on the streets on a daily basis? They're actively preventing crime as it happens, and when a police officer does break the law, they're held accountable.
Fair point on the CIA and FBI, though I do wonder if they're really necessary.

helterskelter wrote:I CAN understand where you are all coming from but please give it a bit of non hysterical thought-THEY are not after YOU,THEY are after THEM.
A little accidental invasion of privacy is a small price to pay to prevent the likes of 9/11 etc.

The NSA has existed since long before 9/11. It didn't stop 9/11. Or the Boston Bombings, for that matter, by which point you certainly couldn't argue that they didn't have the power/means to do so.
So is it the terrorism that we never hear of that they thwart? They've prevented it, thus we needn't know? If so, the whole scandal would have been an opportune time to present such acts and assess whether or not their existence is necessary.

My biggest concern doesn't lie with the NSA. I'm not American, after all, and I certainly don't plan on moving there any time soon.
What worries me is when America tries to play world police, be it SOPA or TPP or whatever scheme it is next. But that would be getting off topic :roll:
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby TechGuyAndrew on Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:14 pm

I totally agree with you passerby, although I am American. I don't feel it is right for the US government to spy on pretty much the whole world, as Snoden has shown.

I am not trying to get into a political debate either (I'm not a lawyer as well), I just am trying to show people, like some that have been posting in this topic, why some of what the NSA does (and other US government departments for that mater) are in some ways wrong. Snoden is a perfect example of why the government shouldn't be collecting data on almost all individuals, because the data collected can fall into the wrong hands. I am also of the opinion that some of what the NSA does violates the US constitution (protection from unreasonable search).

To avoid starting a real debate, this is going to be my final post to this topic. The US media has played a good roll in covering up for some of the "night quite right" things US government does.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby mike acker on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:35 pm

In his foreword to my[HARVEY SILVERGLATE] book[Three Felonies a Day], Alan Dershowitz discusses his time litigating cases in the old Soviet Union. He was always taken by the fact that they could prosecute anybody they wanted because some of the statutes were so vague. Dershowitz points out that this was a technique developed by Beria, the infamous sidekick of Stalin, who said, “Show me the man and I’ll find you the crime.” That really is something that has survived the Soviet Union and has arrived in the good old USA. “Show me the man,” says any federal prosecutor, “and I can show you the crime.” This is not an exaggeration.


Source http://www.cato.org/policy-report/januaryfebruary-2010/criminalization-almost-everything

~~
it appears the original source may have gone 404
(ed)

one ought to reflect on the NSA stuff and ask: who are they really looking for? terrorists? or dissidents, where dissidents are any persons opposing government policy.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby helterskelter on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:46 pm

I,m going to duck out of this,my position is obviously clear! And I,m only winding folks up,not my intention.

But consider this,if it were impossible for the NSA or anyother Law abiding Government body to do what the NSA are doing where would that leave national security and serious crime prevention-would you rather be content that no-one will know what granny had for xmas rather than preventing another national terrorist outrage etc.

Night Night. :D

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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby passerby on Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:32 pm

helterskelter wrote:But consider this,if it were impossible for the NSA or anyother Law abiding Government body to do what the NSA are doing where would that leave national security and serious crime prevention-would you rather be content that no-one will know what granny had for xmas rather than preventing another national terrorist outrage etc.


What immediately comes to my mind is the quote "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Obviously you have far greater faith in the US Government than I do.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby mike acker on Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:48 am

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them
pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

this brings to mind the Old Sage "There is none so blind as he who will not see"

here's another one for all ya all :

"The American political system is not the democratic model of which its glorifiers speak. In actuality it frustrates democracy by confusing the individual citizen, paralyzing policy discussion, and consolidating the irresponsible power of military and business interests"

From the Port Huron statement of the Students for a Democratic Society 1962. printed in _Woodstock_ (Mike Evans, Paul Kingsbury).
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby clfarron4 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:05 am

mike acker wrote:"The American political system is not the democratic model of which its glorifiers speak. In actuality it frustrates democracy by confusing the individual citizen, paralyzing policy discussion, and consolidating the irresponsible power of military and business interests"

From the Port Huron statement of the Students for a Democratic Society 1962. printed in _Woodstock_ (Mike Evans, Paul Kingsbury).


Isn't that the case for anything political?

As for the NSA discussion, the NSA foils quite a bit, but there are others outside who have also foiled mechanisms that provide encryption on the web (take Professor Kenneth Paterson et al. with the Lucky Thirteen attack. That said, HTTPS needs replacing anyways as there are so many people that don't have the latest patches for SSL/TLS).
Last edited by clfarron4 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby rokytnji on Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:29 am

helterskelter wrote:Whats the big deal? Someone explain to me why I should be worried?
I really dont get all this conspiracy hooha.I think theres an awful lot of folks out their that need to see a shrink-Paranoia?

eddie


I know Texas can be hard, and I know we aint perfect but, damn!

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/201 ... gbill.html

At least I can ride my harley without a helmet with straight pipes and ape hangers with my tattoos flying without getting arrested. Now, why is that drone hovering over me? :)
I guess ignorance can be bliss.At least for me.
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby monkeyboy on Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:26 pm

helterskelter wrote:Whats the big deal? Someone explain to me why I should be worried?
I really dont get all this conspiracy hooha.I think theres an awful lot of folks out their that need to see a shrink-Paranoia?

eddie



Because outrage and chest beating is part of the Internet culture. True the effectiveness of such actions is often in question but it makes folks feel better and/or keeps them amused. :roll:
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If you can't make something better, adapt
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Re: N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption

Postby samriggs on Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:29 pm

One way to drive the NSA nuts, everyone come up with their own encryption tool and just share it with friends/family, keeping the tool in a usb key that decodes the message from there instead, all they see is gibberish and with so many different formats (since everyone would make their own version) it would keep them so busy trying to figure out so much gibberish. :lol:
Ya I know an insane thought but easily doable, and only good for messages/emails etc...
Personally I'm not worried about them but it does irk me to no end about poking their nose into everyone's business and taking away our right to privacy even though we really don't have much privacy on the internet or what little we did have, they have invaded that part also, kind of feel likes the creep that peeks in folks windows, or the Crampets (I think it was) poking their nose trough the curtains on bewitched.
Plus isn't what their doing against their own laws they impose on others?
If so why aren't they charging them or closing them down?
If what their doing is against their own laws then Snowden actually did what they expect all citizens to do, tell on an organization that breaks their laws.
If it's not against the law to do what their doing then anyone can do it, a nightmare just thinking about it.
Either way I don't have a choice who does it, they force the choice on me, that sounds more like a dictatorship then a democracy.
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