Mint 13 XFCE

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Mint 13 XFCE

Yes
86
74%
No
19
16%
May be
11
9%
 
Total votes : 116

Mint 13 XFCE

Postby sunewbie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:00 am

Hello,

I like XFCE and currently after Unity and Gnome 3 saga, I wish that there is also a XFCE spin of Mint 13, which will be based on Ubuntu 12.04 LTS and not Xubuntu 12.04 LTS. (you already have a XFCE meta package in repos). This version like Mint 9 gnome and like LMDX will have popular apps generally found in gnome like Libreoffice i.e. it has default apps that were of Gnome2.

XFCE is the most stable along with LXDE right now. LXDE spin already exist. Nothing more needs to be said about XFCE.

Hope there are enough XFCE lovers which would vote for this request, and lets keep fingers crossed that we manage to get Clem's attention.

If you partially agree, please give your inputs.

Re-voting is enabled.

Thanks

UPDATED: 27th Feb 2012

We have great brain storming response from fellow members with excellent inputs. 75 posts are too long to read. So I have tried to type the essence in the first post. Do let me know if I have missed anything.


We would like to have:

1) Mint 13 LTS XFCE based on Ubuntu and not Xubuntu. (Only LTS version of other flavours like KDE and XFCE.) Why can't XFCE be used as DE for Modern desktop?

2) Prefer and happy to use More Polished LMDX (LM Debian Edition XFCE) than Ubuntu based edition and hope that Clem will announce it as reasonably safe / stable for general use.

3) Prefer LMDE based on Debian Stable with Official backports enabled. (Like Saline OS, but with Mint Freshness)

4) Prefer LMDE based on Debian Stable with Official backports enabled, *but would like to have latest software.
(*Seems contradictory)

5) Atleast have Mint-XFCE-DE in repos without softwares. i.e. just preconfigured XFCE with just file manager and no or minimum software.

6) Mint-XFCE-meta-package in repos, having XFCE + selected softwares.

General opinion (not limited but applicable to XFCE edition):

7) Considering the size of Dev Team, having too many editions will do more harm then help.

Maintaining too many editions and releasing new version every 6 months is very difficult and tedious.

So either

Reduce number of editions

or

extend the release schedule

8) Extending release schedule will help ease out maintenance. Have only LTS version of other editions. Maintaining one distro version at a time.

9) Have only two versions i.e. one before LTS (just when current stable edition is about to reach EOL (End Of Life) maybe after 15-18 months or have non-LTS version before 6 months of LTS version). This Non-LTS version will help phase out any bugs making LTS version very stable.

e.g. Mint 8 and Mint 9 followed by Mint 12 and Mint 13 for all editions except main flagship edition.
Last edited by sunewbie on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby Chris_Urie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:07 am

I agree im not a huge fan of unity or gnome 3 but i can live with it, but i love XFCE and would love to see this in Mint
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby KBD47 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:46 am

I've said for awhile now that Main Mint should go with Xfce, but I think Clem is going to have Cinnamon in good shape by the Mint 13 LTS release. I'm very pleased with Mint Debian Xfce and highly recommend it.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby sunewbie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:04 am

KBD47 wrote:I've said for awhile now that Main Mint should go with Xfce, but I think Clem is going to have Cinnamon in good shape by the Mint 13 LTS release. I'm very pleased with Mint Debian Xfce and highly recommend it.
KBD47


I have LMDX in virtualbox and still I did not found any issues. I have only enabled level 1 an 2 in repos :)

Still, by definition, LMDE cannot be stable and so you cannot recommend to newbie /new windows convert.

I hope that one day, it will become the main edition or atleast as popular as the main one an Clem would announce that it is safe enough for newbies :)
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby KBD47 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:16 am

The only problem I can see for LMDX for newbies is that we need a new iso burned for download with the correct repositories set to latest. Newbies should never have to jump into Linux needing to fool with repositories. A couple bugs need fixed too, like the gstreamer bug that keeps the new install from downloading updates, and the right click/themes bug that doesn't work when you right click on files unless you set to 'clearlooks'. It's simple stuff, but needs fixing on a new iso. As far as updates they should be pretty safe if pointed at latest, but I have real concerns about getting a mountain of downloads when they finally arrive.
I'd like to see Mint Debian Stable versions for newbies. Yet I fear there are too many pans in the fire with Mint trying to do too much already.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby sunewbie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:23 am

KBD47 wrote:The only problem I can see for LMDX for newbies is that we need a new iso burned for download with the correct repositories set to latest. Newbies should never have to jump into Linux needing to fool with repositories. A couple bugs need fixed too, like the gstreamer bug that keeps the new install from downloading updates, and the right click/themes bug that doesn't work when you right click on files unless you set to 'clearlooks'. It's simple stuff, but needs fixing on a new iso. As far as updates they should be pretty safe if pointed at latest, but I have real concerns about getting a mountain of downloads when they finally arrive.
I'd like to see Mint Debian Stable versions for newbies. Yet I fear there are too many pans in the fire with Mint trying to do too much already.
KBD47


True. Agree with both points about changes in ISO and pointing repos to latest (which is expected tin next updated ISO) and not expecting too much from Little Mint dev team.

Mint 13 XFCE may be open a window towards LMDX.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby xenopeek on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:46 am

I'm quite happy with the LMDE XFCE, except for it not offering encryption during installation. I've answered "maybe"; if there is time I do agree an Ubuntu LTS based XFCE would be a great addition to recommend to newcomers. But perhaps the effort would be better spent on adding usability to the LMDE XFCE.

BTW great poll, sunewbie! :D
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby sunewbie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:28 am

I too like LMDE, but I feel it still needs to be polished.

Till devs are busy polishing, better have Ubuntu based LTS XFCE.

On the other hand, if there is heavy demand of LMDX, than Clem may give more focus to polish it Mint team has got one more full member :mrgreen:

Lets hope more and more members will vote on this poll to make it gr8 ;)

Thanks all for voting :D
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby gn2 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:11 am

I think there is a real danger that splitting attention to a varied selection of Mint Versions will weaken Mint.

For me the whole point of Mint was always simplicity and elegance, a nice welcoming place for newcomers to start.

With increased choice comes increased confusion.

Mint should choose to utilise either the Ubuntu or the Debian repos and choose one DE to support.

The time to choose is now before Mint fragments into a broken mess.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby sunewbie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:21 am

gn2 wrote:I think there is a real danger that splitting attention to a varied selection of Mint Versions will weaken Mint.

For me the whole point of Mint was always simplicity and elegance, a nice welcoming place for newcomers to start.

With increased choice comes increased confusion.

Mint should choose to utilise either the Ubuntu or the Debian repos and choose one DE to support.

The time to choose is now before Mint fragments into a broken mess.


you are right to an extend.

For newbies / new converts, the flagship edition is the one which can be officially recommended to download. For users who want other choices, LMDE and others spins can be mentioned.

So anyone reading a short intro recommending LM 13 main edition will most probably download it.

This will satisfy both newbies and avid users :)

As you say, more spins may scatter focus, but surely, Clem and Team will be aware of it. As you see, this is just an opinion and not a demand. We can get things done by downloading meta packages and apps of our choices.

As i have earlier said, as on today, LXDE and XFCE are more stable as compared to Gnome 3 and Unity.

Mint 12 was an excellent attempt, and may be MGSE was one of the reason behind cinnamon's birth.

As LM 13 is an LTS, why not use a DE which is stable enough. This is a temporary phase until both DEs (though we are not concerned with Unity) gets mature. As emphasis is more on stability, than features, so I have raised this issue and asked for others minters suggestions.

Thanks for inputs.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby Gerd50 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:51 pm

I don't see a reason for Mint13 XFCE. I'm happy with the LMDE version :D
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby KBD47 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:21 pm

Actually it is pretty simple to download and install Xfce4 to main Mint and just log into the Xfce session.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby asymmetros on Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:59 pm

As i had said several times, i prefer debian as a base, for several specific reasons, but every user has his/hers own preferences, so maybe it's better to leave it here and speak only as a Xfce-fan.
Xfce is not Mint's flagship desktop.
Mint's team has not a lot of members.
If i am right, Clem has stated once that maintaining a debian-based desktop will be less time consuming than a ubuntu-based version of that desktop.
KDE fans are still waiting for a new, stable release (it 's about a year from the last one).
So, you have to consider all those parameters -one by one and combined. If an ubuntu-based edition stucks, you 're done, that's nothing you can do. With LMDE, you can change the sources to testing or whatever and you are okay.
They are not many distros offering Xfce as their main desktop. More specifically, in the .deb side of the world, i find pure Debian the best option (Crunchbang for example abandoned Xfce to concentrate to Openbox only). What i do not like in Mint, is that Xfce comes by default with so many gnome applications. The reason has explained in the past, i do not agree with it but i am not asking something from the devs: after all, their target isn't to offer a “pure Xfce-experience” and that's why Xfce is left to the side due to gnome 3.2 transition, the price for not being the flagship.

By the way, encryption during the installation would be a perfect addition. As it is now, the only alternative is to install Debian and add mint repos afterwards. (offering mounting options, noatime eg, will be great too).
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby kijin on Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:19 pm

sunewbie wrote:I wish that there is also a XFCE spin of Mint 13, which will be based on Ubuntu 12.04 LTS and not Xubuntu 12.04 LTS.

I'm curious about your reasoning there. Xubuntu is based on Ubuntu, so it's all going to be based on Ubuntu anyway. Is there something specific in Xubuntu that you wish weren't included in the proposed XFCE spin of Linux Mint, or are you just talking about Xubuntu's selection of default apps?

Also, I'm under the impression that you're suggesting XFCE as a replacement for MATE (GNOME 2) -- though perhaps not immediately. Is that right?

Personally, I don't see much point in supporting both XFCE and MATE in the long term, due to the many similarities and high compatibility between the two. It has to be either XFCE or MATE, not both. Besides, Linux Mint only has a finite amount of resources available for development, and supporting too many different desktop environments would spread the resources thin. Assuming that MGSE will be dropped in Mint 13, we'll have Cinnamon (GNOME 3) and KDE. If a third desktop environment is going to be supported, it had better be a good long-term investment. This is unlikely to happen if both MATE and XFCE are on the table, so my impression is that any push for XFCE will be at the expense of MATE.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby asymmetros on Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:41 pm

kijin, i have not tried mate, i am ignoring it's state, so i find your point "either XFCE or MATE, not both" very interesting.
In such a dilemma, the obvious answer is Xfce: They don't have to support then the gnome 2 libraries, and also, there is not any need to re-invent the wheel. That also means more time for Clem's Cinnamon. But we 'll see.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby xenopeek on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:20 pm

asymmetros wrote:In such a dilemma, the obvious answer is Xfce: They don't have to support then the gnome 2 libraries, and also, there is not any need to re-invent the wheel.

Both XFCE and LXDE actually use GTK+ 2, i.e., the libraries also used by GNOME 2. MATE of course is using a fork of those libraries.

XFCE will start migration to GTK+ 3 after their next release (the libraries also used by GNOME 3).
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby Hawkeye_52 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:44 pm

Sunewbie,

Just so I am clear, is this poll regarding a Linux Mint 13 XFCE, based on Ubuntu, as opposed to the continued LMDE XFCE that would contain LM 13 features in its repositories?

Sorry if I am a little dense on this point.

Regarding other posts concerned about Linux Mint 'fragmenting' itself into too many variations, I think that Clem's strategies for Linux Mint have embraced diversity. With several options available already, using both Ubuntu repositories and Debian repositories, combined with the addition of MATE and Cinnamon, it is much more an issue of how the diversity should be packaged, rather than whether it should occur. Clem and, I am sure, his devs have definitely committed to a certain level of complexity, to satisfy the widest range of end user preferences possible.

To use an analogy, it appears that the Linux Mint is going to have a family; the only question is how many children that will include. We are just sitting around suggesting whether a 'well rounded' family should include 3, 4, 5, or 6 children, and how many girls and/or boys that family should have. Regardless, by choices already made by the Linux Mint management/development group, the family will not be a small one...

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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby kijin on Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:31 pm

Hawkeye_52 wrote:Just so I am clear, is this poll regarding a Linux Mint 13 XFCE, based on Ubuntu, as opposed to the continued LMDE XFCE that would contain LM 13 features in its repositories?

I believe that's what Sunewbie is trying to suggest here. Since LMDE is a semi-rolling distribution, it will eventually get most of the features from LM13 anyway. No point arguing about that.

In fact, one of the arguments in favor of an official Mint 13 XFCE spin might be: "Hey, we already have a Debian-based XFCE spin that a lot of people seem to like. Why not bring it to the Ubuntu-based spin, too? We've been porting features back and forth between the Main edition and LMDE all the time."

asymmetros wrote:kijin, i have not tried mate, i am ignoring it's state, so i find your point "either XFCE or MATE, not both" very interesting.
In such a dilemma, the obvious answer is Xfce: They don't have to support then the gnome 2 libraries, and also, there is not any need to re-invent the wheel. That also means more time for Clem's Cinnamon. But we 'll see.

Not exactly (see Vincent Vermeulen's comment above), but I do suspect that XFCE has a brighter future than MATE. The fact that XFCE plans to transition to GTK+ 3.x is a bonus: it will be fully compatible with GNOME apps. MATE, on the other hand, had to rename a whole bunch of libraries just to get off the ground.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby KBD47 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:29 pm

Xubuntu is a great alternative for those who like Xfce. With a bit of tweaking I can get it the way I want, remove the dock, drop the top panel to the bottom, add some apps, and it's ready to go.
I'm convinced that when all is said and done Main Mint with Cinnamon is going to be excellent. But I also hope that Mint Debian gets the attention it needs. I really don't believe it would take much for Mint Debian to be user friendly, even newbie friendly. It's already much more user friendly than vanilla Debian.
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Re: Mint 13 XFCE

Postby sunewbie on Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:57 am

@asymmetros and @KBD47

Your points are valid.

As I have earlier said, LM 13 is an LTS version. I think, the flagship distro should be ubuntu based. It makes migration to and from other Ubuntu based distro or the migration from Ubuntu easy.

LM 13 XFCE and LMDX will benefit each other.

Encryption is not going to happen in near future. I do not remember the thread, but one member had chatted in IRC and dev team was not ready to implement this.

EDIT:

@asymmetros: Clem did say that maintaining LMDE is easier than Ubuntu based distros. He also said in a comment that in future KDE will also be shifted to LMDE. On inquiring weather even the main edition will be debian based, he said that The flagship edition is the most focused one and is the most widely used distro. It will be continued to be based on Ubuntu.

To all.

Things can be done by tweaking. This is the power of Linux and FOSS.

Please note that the challenge is to convert windows users and not frustrated windows users.

@kijin

I am talking of simply replacing Gnome3 and MATE with XFCE or atleast have a dual boot option of XFCE with Gnome 3 + cinnamon.

Keep the default apps same as that of gnome edition except some basic ones like files manager. Clem made LMDX as an alternative to LMDE gnome and it has apps like libre office. So XFCE is not targeted at older hardware, but as an alternative for full fledge system.

Regarding Xubuntu and LM, before Unity, both Ubuntu and LM distros were gnome2 based. Still there was difference.

Xubuntu is targeted for little older hardware where LM XFCE (*which I am talking) is for full fledge system. Similar difference will be there between Xubuntu and LM XFCE (which you may have noticed in LM 9). Please note that this time, unlike LM LXDE, it is not tweaking / remaster / fork of Xubuntu but Ubuntu. i.e. Replace Unity with XFCE and add Mint flavour.

I hope things are clear :)

I am also not keen to use MATE. As on Today XFCE is more stable than MATE and maintaining too many distros is not advisable.

So no MATE, only XFCE and hopefully replacing gnome 3 with XFCE (It is not going this way, nor am I XFCE fanatic  )

All I want to say is that why is XFCE ignored. It can definitely be used as full fledged DE.

In lubuntu one stop thread, mods have requested the author to give the tips on how to remove lighter apps and replace them with regular apps used in gnome e.g. purge abiword and gnumeric and install libreoffice

Eventhough LXDE and XFCE are developed keeping in mind older hardware, still they can be used as a main DE in modern hardware. Why can’t they?

I am not an advanced user. I do not tweak much. I tried both editions of LMDE and I could not distinguish between gnome and XFCE.

@Hawkeye_52

Regarding analogy and off springs.

This poll is regarding LM 13 XFCE LTS, but does not oppose LMDX. As said earlier, and @ kijin has said, they both may compliment each other (I have never though about it @kijin's way – I admit :).

I have heard that the porting to GTK3 will be done around the later half of this year and may be complete this year end.

*For MATE and XFCE, In either case, both use GTK2, but XFCE is more stable and I personally prefer XFCE *and not MATE.

Summing up:

1) LM 13 LTS XFCE for full fledge modern PCs – the poll is all about this without opposing other flavours

2) Happy if LMDX gets more polish

3) Flagship distro should be Ubuntu based to ease migration to / from *buntu distro(s)

4 ) Btw, LM 13 with (mature) Gnome 3 + cinnamon will be a good one. No offenses :)

5 ) On the other hand, Providing a Meta package for XFCE, which will make your PC similar to LMDX or Mint 9 (not the standard pure XFCE package) would also be great. I hope this will not be of a too much burden for Clem and Team.

EDIT: Corrected statement after * to make it more clear. Sorry for my bad english
Last edited by sunewbie on Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:00 am, edited 6 times in total.
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