Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

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craig10x
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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by craig10x » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:29 pm

I don't know...you guys complain a lot...Clem is really doing most of the work...in fact, he is the only "paid" person doing this (through the donations and advertising support) and has essentially made his career out of developing linux mint...He has got very limited volunteer assistance (i think kendall and boo perhaps but not even sure if boo is really active with this anymore and ikey had to leave) he has his hands pretty full...working on lmde...working on main edition...working on your kde lmde... working on the other lmde editions...getting the "update packs" going for lmde...it's amazing he can get any/all of this done...

You kde fans don't realize how messed up this unity/shell situation is...most of the gnome users absolutely hate it...it is a totally unproductive desktop...again...i have to remind you that though kde3 to 4 was a big change for you..at least they didn't ruin your working desktop environment in the process...I commend Clem for spending the time right now to make the proper change over for mint 12 so gnome fans can once again continue with a decent working desktop...but i guess you kde fans just can't appreciate our "plight" since you don't personally have to deal with it...

Sorry for the rant...but just had to get it off my chest...please stop whining so much... you'll have your lmde kde by december then it's good "forever".... :)

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by Fandangio » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:34 pm

This isn't about whining. It is about being misinformed about a version of Mint.

Now that I have the facts I can make an informed decision, something I was unable to do until yesterday.
It's also about integrity, Mint KDE was announced to have been the next thing on the agenda several times but has failed to materialise.
Clem no longer seems a man of his word.

Why would we wait now till December, on current form it will be dropped again.
The community is based on trust and peoples words. I love Mint and would like to stay here but do I want to wait till December? And do I even trust that KDE will be along then? The answer is "no" I don't think it will be around then.

As people have said this is about being honest. If KDE is the lowest DE in the chain then so be it, and if there is a chance that it will not be available in December then they should say that they intend to release it then but other factors may push it back. Don't say something WILL happen then not stick to your word.

For the record it is all here in black and white, just read the blogs (though you'll have to trawl through lots to find comments on KDE as there is no post on what is happening with KDE. There's just snippets in other threads).

For me this really is unacceptable.
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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by DrTeeth » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:57 pm

The use of LMDE for the KDE spin was due to non-specified performance issues with the Ubuntu base with KDE. I must say that the performance of Kubuntu is more than adequate on all my PCs here...so what's the problem?

DrT

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by GeneC » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:02 pm

craig10x wrote: ................You kde fans don't realize how messed up this unity/shell situation is...most of the gnome users absolutely hate it...it is a totally unproductive desktop...again...
Sorry for the rant...but just had to get it off my chest...please stop whining so much...
Says WHO Craig?
You don't know what your talking about.
Have you even tried it?
Or did you try it, only to format your hard drive (AGAIN!) next day and run back to Mint 11?

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by craig10x » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:23 pm

GeneC...no actually i did try ubuntu 11.10 with unity...i ran it on live disc for several days (rather then do a hard install) and even with unity, i still like it better then kde or kubuntu....and did in fact get "comfortable" with it...but still found that i prefer a more conventional style desktop...

Even with Unity though, there are two options they should include, and that is 1) they should let you move that side "docky" down to the bottom if you prefer a more mac like appearance (i would have liked that better)...or if instead, you'd like to leave it on the side but just move the upper panel down to the bottom instead...(which i would also like better)...

Additionally, windows should get "minimized" to the panel, as they use to...it's more awkward working that from the docky....and why are those icons so darn big for pete's sake...

Kde for me has a bunch of issues...i wish i did "love it" when i tried Kubuntu...it would have gotten me away from this whole "mess" :wink:
As far as not staying with lmde...i just didn't like the regressions and breakage factors...i prefer an ubuntu base for much more stability and basic reliability...

I understand their frustrations here about lmde kde version...but i think some expect too much from such a small operation as mint is...they can bash Clem all they want here but i think he does the best he can with what he has to work with...

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by GeneC » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:53 pm

I agree about UNITY, it not good. But, the shell is a whole other thing. You should give it a try, and a chance. I find it more functional than old Gnome 2.3. I have two installs of LMDE on this computer.
One running LMDE "testing" Gnome 2.3
One running LMDE "SID" Gnome 3.0 with the Shell. (plus AWN). It has all the functionality of 2.3, plus (for what I do). There are about a dozen extensions already, that do most all of the things that "applets" on the panel did with 2.3, and the more I use it, the more I see its faster to use.

I think these folks do have a legitimate princess about KDE, not that its late in coming, but that there is very little feedback on its status. I dont think anyone is bashing Clem. He must work 24 hrs a day. He needs more help.

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by craig10x » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:05 pm

"He must work 24 hrs a day. He needs more help"
LOL :lol: you're not kidding...he sure needs it :wink:
I agree...i can understand their frustration...and it probably would have helped if he had communicated to them a bit better...

Sounds pretty cool with your set-up using shell...i know tdockery97 had done similar stuff with his set up...

Essentially, i think that is what Clem is currently working on for mint 12...in other words, gnome 3.2 shell using extensions to customize to the mint style desktop...
If it works out well...should be awesome 8)

I will probably wait to see how Mint 12 turns out as i am rather fond of the mint desktop and it would be "ready to go" as it were :wink:
If it doesn't work out that way, then i could always hard install ubuntu 11.10...change to gnome shell and do the customizing and tweaks...
Another distro i think that is likely to go "Clem's route" is Zorin (my 2nd favorite "ready to use" distro)....

Again apologies to those on this kde thread...i hope you get your kde lmde by December (as was said in the latest update info)...and wish you good luck with it when you do...and thank you for your input GeneC...
Last edited by craig10x on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by disciple1964 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:07 pm

Hello,

This is my point on KDE, Why are we working on a mint 12 when we are still in 2011. It seems that it would be fair to work on the KDE version, get it out of the way and then work on Mint 12. While I understand that some users like gnome, You cannot advertise a KDE version and then say , that those who use this version is not important. As with any development whether commercial or free, Communication is key, If you don't believe it, then why do so many businesses now use twitter to communicate upcoming products.

If you state a product should be available in Sept or Oct, then you should make it so. Otherwise you are no better than microsoft and that to me is BS. Get KDE done first, Then work on MINT12. I realize that clem may be working by himself and may need help, but keep the projects in order and it would be easier overall.

As far as those of you who are easy to tell KDE users to go somewhere else. I must say I am appalled at that, That is a Microsoft attitude. The fact that we are commenting on Mint KDE means we really want to support and stay with this distro, I have used a lot of others, but this is a very well put together distro and would like to recommend it to my customers. But if my customer wants the latest KDE 4.7 desktop and not a desktop that is several releases back, then it makes it hard to recommend Mint to anyone.

If KDE will be due in December, by then KDE 5 might be out and it would not even be worth the wait for a desktop that might not even be 4.7 Let's be clear, I am not complaining, but paying attention and reading between the lines of comments made already.

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by MALsPa » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:54 pm

Still, the simple reality is that the GNOME version has always been the top priority, and it still is. Okay, so things didn't go according to plan and Mint 11 KDE got put on the back burner. That's how things go sometimes. Sorry, but if folks can't accept all that, then it seems to me that a "KDE distro" would be a better option. Or maybe just chill and wait a few months. Either way, I'm pretty sure that the world will keep on spinning and life will go on.

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by craig10x » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:31 pm

well put... malspa...that's the thing...kde is a fairly small slice of the "mint pie" if you look at the chart on the community page you will see what i mean (less then 10%).... 75% of mint users use mint main edition and the rest lmde (10%) and the other lighter weight versions...Also, this is the ubuntu based version, which Clem always gets out roughly 1 month after the ubuntu release...

also, the kde version is no longer ubuntu based, disciple1964 and will only be available from mint as an lmde edition (rolling debian testing) so anyone who prefers kde and ubuntu base does need to go to another distro at this point...mint simply can't maintain all these "smaller" (for mint) versions on ubuntu base...which is why the all have gone/going to lmde except of course for the majority used mint main edition...without mint main edition, mint would lose it's "friendly for newbies" status...and for those who want a pretty solid and stable system with few "surprises" (lol)...

debian testing does not usually have the latest and greatest apps right away, anyway...don't know if you realize that disciple1964...Oh they get them eventually, but it's not like PcLinuxOs if that was what you were thinking...which works quite differently...

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by Fandangio » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:29 am

MALsPa wrote:Still, the simple reality is that the GNOME version has always been the top priority, and it still is. Okay, so things didn't go according to plan and Mint 11 KDE got put on the back burner. That's how things go sometimes. Sorry, but if folks can't accept all that, then it seems to me that a "KDE distro" would be a better option. Or maybe just chill and wait a few months. Either way, I'm pretty sure that the world will keep on spinning and life will go on.
Sorry MALsPA I still don't agree with your point of view and I still do not agree with Craig.
There's an assumption in some peoples posts that the people who want the KDE version do not know how Mint works. I'm pretty sure we all know the Ubuntu based Gnome edition is the main edition. We also know what percentage of the community is KDE based. We also understand that there were issues with Ubuntu based edition of KDE, I followed the testing on the community page so I know where that fell down.

THIS IS WHAT IT IS ABOUT, as Foggytown and Disciple say;
foggytown wrote:I don't get the whole stringing people along thing, who does that benefit?

Is Mint striving to be an example of how not to manage a "community" based distro?

First the CE gets dropped, allegedly striving for more parity. But unable to make a decent KDE spin from Ubuntu base. Then abandonment of Ubuntu base with a projected mid-August release goal. Then we need to finalize the LMDE spin, get on it right after that. Then it gets pushed back till after update packs are prepared, really really we will get on it after that. In the meantime the new Ubuntu gets released and the main edition takes precedence, after that...for real this time? Should I just assume that something else that takes precedence will come up before December? "Sorry we have to polish the gnome logo, we will do KDE in January."

And of course don't communicate like rational beings, leave hints in comments of unrelated blog posts...let people read tea leaves for the clues for all the good it will do them. If Clem does not want to do a KDE edition, then don't do one. But to string people along a month at a time is pretty much BS.
disciple1964 wrote: You cannot advertise a KDE version and then say , that those who use this version is not important. As with any development whether commercial or free, Communication is key, If you don't believe it, then why do so many businesses now use twitter to communicate upcoming products.
It's about saying you'll do something (on numerous occasions) then failing to do what YOU HAVE SAID.
Worse still none of this is communicated well.

MALsPa I could wait till December but should I now trust Clem to deliver. He's now failed many times where KDE is concerned.

If you respond to this please don't just reiterate for the nth time that KDE is only a small part of Mint and that other parts are more important. It doe's not address the underlying issue at all. And, as previously said saying that KDE users should just go to another distro doesn't help either. I'm sure that most of us KDE users are perfectly aware that there are other options, there don't seem to be many newb KDE users here.
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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by ThistleWeb » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:12 am

This seems to be yet another example of the Mint resources being spread so thin that all parts of the project suffer. I wonder if I am starting to sound like a broken record with this observation or whether others are starting to see what I've seen as an increasing issue. It doesn't help that Gnome and Ubuntu are undergoing a huge split / evolution now with Unity / Gnome Shell etc as that just adds to the workload but the overstretching of resources was well underway before that point.
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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by clem » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:34 am

Hi,

I'm here to address a growing concern within the community and that is the release of the next KDE Edition. Thanks to the people who brought this to my attention.

We've always been consistent since the start of the project and always made sure everybody understood that we didn't care about deadlines as much as we did quality. I estimated a release in August, that's true, but I also consistently underlined that we release "when ready", and until we're happy with what we have, we do not release it.

Early this year, Boo came up with an ISO based on Ubuntu that was 90% there in terms of quality. There was an ongoing debate at the time and the performance was an issue. Eventually we jointly made the decision not to release this ISO and to switch to LMDE instead. What you need to understand here, is that Boo is a volunteer, that the LMDE base is brand new to him, and that I personally was involved in releasing a major update for this base. Whether it's Boo with KDE or Kendall with Fluxbox, they both preferred to wait until LMDE was released before attacking this new base, and when they did, things weren't as simply as updating their respective editions.

I didn't get any news from Boo lately and I'm not sure what his progress is on this new base. He's a volunteer, and as such his work and personal life come first. I'm sure he's got good reasons, and after working with him for so long and building such a successful relationship, I won't be quick in deciding whether he gets replaced or not.

I'm personally giving 100% to the main edition of Linux Mint 12 right now to make sure we come up with a quality desktop around the end of November. It's a huge task, perhaps the biggest since the beginning of our project, as it's a great challenge not only to keep what we have in a working state (a Gnome traditional desktop) but also to adapt to new technologies such as Gnome 3. The work we do on the main edition doesn't simply affect Gnome, it impacts all Mint editions, whether it's on an Ubuntu or a Debian base. During that time, all our focus is fully dedicated to that task.

In December, with Linux Mint 12 released and LMDE in good shape I will hopefully have the time to focus on KDE. If Boo isn't back by then, I'll address the issue myself. Based on all these facts we might confirm the switch to LMDE or we might revert to Ubuntu and continue on as before. Either way, the presence or absence of Boo in this project will be an important factor in the decision.

I can't tell you when you'll see a release, but December this year we'll have some news and if nothing is ready, I'll personally work on it myself. You've seen how quickly the Xfce edition now follows LMDE, they get released together. One of the reasons that was done initially was because Merlwiz wasn't as available anymore. LMDE simplifies that process, though a fourth edition is a little too much for me to take on on my own.

I understand your frustration and I hope you'll be patient. As far as communication goes, if we didn't give you any news, it's simply because we didn't have any. I work full time on Linux Mint and I'm able to give it 24 hours a day. Boo isn't. Comes December, if things haven't improved, I'll be able to make a difference and take long term decisions for this edition to get proper maintenance.

Thank you for your patience and for your understanding.

Clem.
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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by gogogadget » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:50 am

... which makes me wonder, why Mint is provided with so many different Desktop environments. I mean what is this: Ubuntu has people who deliver Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu etc., each one only caring about their specific Desktop Environment (at least, that's what I think), but in Mint every single one of them has to be made by Clem. No wonder it takes so long for a release...
Why not face reality and reduce the amount of different Mint DE's? I know it sounds bad, but if 75% use the Main Edition with Gnome, why not stick to it fully? Obviously the workload is too much to keep any release dates anymore - or by the time it's released it's outdated. And the delays take longer and longer each new version. Ridiculous. Better stick to the Main Edition and maybe the Debian version - skip the rest (including the attempt to maintain a Gnome 2.x Desktop again...). Hard but honest. If people hate Mint out of a sudden because of empty promises or because of dropped Desktop Environments - doesn't matter anymore.

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by DrTeeth » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:07 am

Clem,

Thank you for posting.

The problem is, as I see it, that LMDE is broken/needs too much fiddling for many people to work as well as the Ubuntu-based Mint editions. I enjoy using Linux, and Mint especially. Using LMDE takes me back years when it used to take me less than 5 mins to find my first bug when trying a distro.

With warmest regards

DrT
Last edited by DrTeeth on Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by Fandangio » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:21 am

Thanks for the response Clem, though I do worry about a KDE when it comes bottom of the chain.

I think gogogadget is right, maybe the team should focus on making one awesome edition instead of spreading the available resource too thin. I'd prefer to see Mint remain a success, even if that means KDE drops off the programme,
gogogadget wrote:... which makes me wonder, why Mint is provided with so many different Desktop environments. I mean what is this: Ubuntu has people who deliver Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu etc., each one only caring about their specific Desktop Environment (at least, that's what I think), but in Mint every single one of them has to be made by Clem. No wonder it takes so long for a release...
Why not face reality and reduce the amount of different Mint DE's? I know it sounds bad, but if 75% use the Main Edition with Gnome, why not stick to it fully? Obviously the workload is too much to keep any release dates anymore - or by the time it's released it's outdated. And the delays take longer and longer each new version. Ridiculous. Better stick to the Main Edition and maybe the Debian version - skip the rest (including the attempt to maintain a Gnome 2.x Desktop again...). Hard but honest. If people hate Mint out of a sudden because of empty promises or because of dropped Desktop Environments - doesn't matter anymore.
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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by gogogadget » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:53 am

DrTeeth wrote:The problem is, as I see it, that LMDE is broken/needs too much fiddling for many people to work as well as the Ubuntu-based Mint editions. I enjoy using Linux, and Mint especially. Using LMDE takes me back years when it used to take me less than 5 mins to find my first bug when trying a distro.
I second that. Can't get warm with LMDE :( The Ubuntu based Mint is still the best in usability. And yeah, as Fandangio said: I'd also prefer a single cutting edge awesome Edition

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by craig10x » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:00 am

I third that :lol:
Mint Main Edition and perhaps LMDE for the "tinkerers" (lol)....Just those two editions...so that all the quality can be put into those two... :wink:
And that they can be produced in a more timely manner...

A side note to Clem: Really looking forward to Mint 12 and i hope you can have gnome 3.2 with the mint desktop on it...i think that would be awesome :)

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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by tdockery97 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:17 am

While I enjoy LMDE a lot, I have to admit that one reason I run it is because it was such a new idea. But there is no arguing with the fact that the Ubuntu-based versions are more up-to-date in every way than is Debian Testing. You will find things like KDE 4.7.1 in Kubuntu eons before it shows up in LMDE. My unofficial LMDE KDE is still running KDE 4.6.5, as well as many of the other packages installed being equally far behind. IMO LMDE is definitely more for us "tinkerers" than for those who want the latest of everything. So I'm sort of torn between LMDE and Ubuntu-based when it comes to KDE.
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Re: Release Date for Linux Mint 11 KDE

Post by manny » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:53 am

Thank you Clem for cleaning up the air. It might be very difficult to maintain a distro such as Linux Mint on your own, a distro that has become so popular in the Linux world that appears is suffocating itself because of high expectations.

In my opinion, this is what has been happening in here, luck of communication was progressively deteriorating the community to the point that LM-K lovers felt very disappointed about the way were treated as members of the LM family. Personally I understand this time to be a very difficult one for you, having to deal with so many fronts alone is not easy. If you need to stream line LM for now, by sacrificing some releases I'm sure most of us will understand the decision. Probably it would be better, once LM12 has been released, to spend the time restructuring LM accordingly; recruiting the right people who would commit to work with you in the future in a more solid basis is also fundamental.

Thanks again for the effort and dedication to the cause.

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