Monthly News – March 2019

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clem
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Monthly News – March 2019

Post by clem » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:39 am

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catweazel
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by catweazel » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:46 am

clem wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:39 am
https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736
Gee, Clem, reading that I get the impression you're human after all :)
I think we already knew that our community is split between people who embrace the new trends (flat style, no gradients, simple lines/shapes…etc) and people who don’t enjoy them.
Some of us just don't like squinting and straining to read minty-green text on an all white background.
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cliffcoggin
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by cliffcoggin » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:25 am

catweazel wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:46 am
clem wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:39 am
https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736
Gee, Clem, reading that I get the impression you're human after all :)
I think we already knew that our community is split between people who embrace the new trends (flat style, no gradients, simple lines/shapes…etc) and people who don’t enjoy them.
Some of us just don't like squinting and straining to read minty-green text on an all white background.
It must be even worse for those of you Down Under who have to stand on your heads to read.
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Terryphi
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by Terryphi » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:51 am

catweazel wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:46 am
clem wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:39 am
https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736
Some of us just don't like squinting and straining to read minty-green text on an all white background.
I'm with you on that catweazel.
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KBD47
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by KBD47 » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:36 pm

Hopefully people can disagree without becoming disagreeable :)
It has to be frustrating when a large percentage of feedback is negative.

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murray
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by murray » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:54 pm

With regards to the website redesign, I think the people that didn't like the idea of a redesign spoke up and were vocal, while the rest of us that were happy with the idea of a redesign stayed quiet because we didn't think we needed to say anything. So there may well be a large silent majority that are looking forward to seeing the new design.
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by catweazel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:25 am

murray wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:54 pm
With regards to the website redesign, I think the people that didn't like the idea of a redesign spoke up and were vocal, while the rest of us that were happy with the idea of a redesign stayed quiet because we didn't think we needed to say anything. So there may well be a large silent majority that are looking forward to seeing the new design.
I spoke up in the blog comments when the new design was first shown and opened for discussion. My comment was along the lines of what I wrote above... "Please, please get rid of the green text on a white background", paraphrased.

Simple and to the point. No being vocal, and no criticism. The rest of the design was modern and had a nice feel to it. I suppose I should go back and see what the comments were that upset the devs so much.

Edit: Well, apart from my comment not being there anymore, I don't see why Clem got so emotional. There are very few criticisms and lots of valid discussion. I agree with one comment that said the plethora of green detracts from the seriousness of the distribution. Green is ok, but there's too much reliance on it, and it's too bright.
Last edited by catweazel on Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by catweazel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:32 am

Terryphi wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:51 am
catweazel wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:46 am
Some of us just don't like squinting and straining to read minty-green text on an all white background.
I'm with you on that catweazel.
It's bad enough trying to read the green on green we sometimes see in the forum; more contrast is needed. The devs acknowledged contrast issues by making major contrast changes to Mint Y, then they repeat the same lack of contrast errors on the front door.

Image

I don't mind green, btw; the #006666 shade of it is my favourite colour.
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JoHubb
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by JoHubb » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:54 am

Oh, come on guys! Look at the forest, not the trees!

That Linux Mint and other distros exist at all is amazing. Most users take Mint for granted. Of course they do! It is a mark of success, just like when we crank the starter motor we take it for granted the car will start.

Opinions on what is good or best will always differ. These days, folks tend to view things in a binary way - good or bad, white or black, when we all know that life is multicoloured, with shades, and thank goodness for that!

As a new Linux user (two years), I am grateful for all those who developed Mint. I have now abandoned Windows except for a few specialised purposes. I have been supported on Forums, occasionally a bit harshly perhaps, but I have always received the answers I needed. I am a big boy and can take a sarcastic comment on the chin - usually it was warranted! None of us is perfect.

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catweazel
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by catweazel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:10 am

JoHubb wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:54 am
Oh, come on guys!
Why the melodrama? Nobody is ragging anything or anyone.
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by qbit » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:28 am

Some of us just don't like squinting and straining to read minty-green text on an all white background
Well said, but i think one form of ignorance is to ignore effective internet software which is good for health of the eyes. Imho a good example is typing
" lynx https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3736 "
on a console and lynx configured black-white-grey, no green text at all. :roll:
Your eyes even don't need the colour receptor cells.

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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by ralplpcr » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:52 am

One thing I've learned from being an application/tool developer myself is that no matter what you do, you can *never* make 100% of the users happy 100% of the time. There's always going to be someone that complains that things aren't exactly the way he or she wants it, and will grumble & gripe in the hopes that the "evil developer" will relent & change things around to suit their fancy.

In the end, the thing that helps maintain a sense of sanity is to remember that it is really *your* choice as to what you want the final product to be. Not to say that user bases' input isn't helpful and can't inspire some good ideas, but in the end, you are the one that needs to decide what works best for the result you wish to achieve. Unless you are being paid specifically to design something to someone else's requirements, you are free to design & implement however you see fit. The end user is free to complain, but it's free software - - they are just as free to go create their own fork of the project, go use a different distribution, or to suck it up & trust that you made your choices based on what you felt was best for your release.

Take the whole incorporation of systemd as an example: there were plenty of people that were unhappy with this decision by the Debian team. Some jumped ship & went over to Fedora/Red Hat. Some created their own fork in Devuan linux. The rest stuck with it, and have adapted to the change. And while most people don't necessarily *like* having change forced down their throat, those that stuck with it (or who didn't know any better) have more or less accepted that the change was done for the longer-term stability & benefit of the whole Debian ecosystem.

The take-away of it all is that overall, most people here believe that Linux Mint is a fantastic operating system. Minor things like color choices, icons being used, and even selection of available packages will always be contentious... but they truly are minor. (And with a little effort, those can all be customized by the end user to meet their own desires!) All in all, we have a free, easy-to-use, & stable OS that thousands around the world are very happy to utilize. You'll never make absolutely everyone happy, and there will always be those who complain; but at least for me, I am extremely grateful & appreciative for all the hard work that goes into this project. I hope to be able to enjoy it for many years to come. :)

cliffcoggin
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by cliffcoggin » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:03 pm

It's important to distinguish between the purely cosmetic aspects and the functional aspects. We all would like a slightly different appearance, or a perhaps a slightly different layout for example, but by and large we can use what is there with a bit of effort. However when it comes to the legibility of a site or a page it's a different matter. The primary interaction between computer and user is visual, so if the text can not be read because of low contrast such as grey on grey, or green on green, or fuzzy text, it becomes impossible to find a way to change it. There's a good reason that for hundreds of years printing was always black text on a white ground.
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ralplpcr
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by ralplpcr » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:54 pm

cliffcoggin wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:03 pm
... if the text can not be read because of low contrast such as grey on grey, or green on green, or fuzzy text, it becomes impossible to find a way to change it.
I respectfully disagree. While it may not be obvious or easy for everyone, just about everything in Linux Mint & the LM website can be customized to your heart's content. We have tools such as "Stylish"/"Stylus" that allow the LM website to be completely customized, and the ability to set/create/customize themes for the OS desktop. It takes a little work, but you can make it look exactly how you'd like.

For example, if I wanted to adjust how I see your reply, I could add the following CSS to Stylus:

Code: Select all

div.content{
		background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
        	color: rgb(0,0,0);
        	font-size: 15px;
       		font-family: Verdana;
		} 
I'd then get a very easy-to-read view on all pages in this forum:
Click here to view

EDIT: Original image share seems flaky - try this one instead

Like I said, it's a little bit of work, but in the end, it *is* purely cosmetic.

cliffcoggin
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by cliffcoggin » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:43 pm

ralplpcr wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:54 pm

I respectfully disagree. While it may not be obvious or easy for everyone, just about everything in Linux Mint & the LM website can be customized to your heart's content.

Like I said, it's a little bit of work, but in the end, it *is* purely cosmetic.
I think you are missing the point. I am not denying the possibility of making changes to the appearance, but to make those changes one must be able to actually read the screen in the first place, something that is becoming increasingly difficult with the trend towards low contrast grey text on a pale background. That is a functional matter not a cosmetic one. Given that changes to appearance are both possible and desirable I would prefer to see the initial default appearance to be much more legible so that all ages can read it. Those who want to change it can then do so to their hearts desires.

For all the criticism that Microsoft receives in the Linux world, it's hard to deny the company takes a lot of care in the appearance and legibility of its operating systems.
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gm10
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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by gm10 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:19 pm

cliffcoggin wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:43 pm
For all the criticism that Microsoft receives in the Linux world, it's hard to deny the company takes a lot of care in the appearance and legibility of its operating systems.
Well, to be fair, they're receiving their fair share of design-related hate as well. But otherwise Microsoft seem to be pretty much the only ones left these days using a pure black on white. Everybody else is going for some shade of grey. Personally I do not understand that trend, either, and I did point to the Microsoft example during internal discussions in the past.

But as far as the operating system goes, it's not like the #222 instead of #000 in the default Mint theme makes it unreadable. Plus you're free to install whatever theme you like. There's are Windows 10 themes for Linux even. ;)

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Re: Monthly News – March 2019

Post by deepakdeshp » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:33 pm

gm10 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:19 pm
cliffcoggin wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:43 pm
For all the criticism that Microsoft receives in the Linux world, it's hard to deny the company takes a lot of care in the appearance and legibility of its operating systems.
Well, to be fair, they're receiving their fair share of design-related hate as well. But otherwise Microsoft seem to be pretty much the only ones left these days using a pure black on white. Everybody else is going for some shade of grey. Personally I do not understand that trend, either, and I did point to the Microsoft example during internal discussions in the past.

But as far as the operating system goes, it's not like the #222 instead of #000 in the default Mint theme makes it unreadable. Plus you're free to install whatever theme you like. There's are Windows 10 themes for Linux even. ;)
Well said .
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